Is Snowden starting to go too far with Chinese / International disclosures?

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

Right or wrong, it's not something he should be airing to the world. It's a complex situation and has notihng to do with violations against Americans.

Dang right he should be airing it to the world. That is one selfish statement on your behalf. It not only pertains to violations against Americans but of all people of the world.. Me included.! If what they are dolng is illegal they should be held to account for their actions.. They certainly do not need any more puppets to defend them..

China is continuously using cyber espionage against the US and western nations. Sorry but this POS is putting every American life in jeopardy saying these things. If you don't understand why that is time you research.

It's the equivalent of China launching attacks against the US and him giving the Chinese our battle plans. What he did outing the surveillance of the American population was heroic. This is treason.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

It's the equivalent of China launching attacks against the US and him giving the Chinese our battle plans.

How is it the same. If China launched attacks against the US. Cities would be strewn with dead bodies... No it is not the same. This is about the invasion of privacy and turning every citizen of the planet as a potential enemy. and the best bit is.. you defend it. Like you think they really care about your well being..

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
There is a point where it's fair to say, hey, this is what intelligence agencies are SUPPOSED to be doing. The problem I've had here is that the NSA and others are prohibited by charter from operating against domestic targets and US citizens. However, spy agencies are supposed to be...well? Spying.

Not against millions of free citizens, of ANY country.

This is the problem here. I think we all agree that the NSA and others are tasked with monitoring terrorists and groups, we expect them to be monitoring governments for military intelligence. We DO NOT expect them to be monitoring millions of people just because they have the ability to do that.

This is not the actions of a government working hard to protect its people and its military interests, this is a government out of control and becoming a direct threat to the democratic process, becoming a threat to free and innocent people around the world, becoming an Orwellian nightmare the magnitude of which we could never have presumed existed in our worst nightmares.

The NSA doesn't need to be hoovering up all this data for storage, but it is. Therefore, Snowden leaking this information is in the interests of the public.

He is still a hero.

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

It's the equivalent of China launching attacks against the US and him giving the Chinese our battle plans.

How is it the same. If China launched attacks against the US. Cities would be strewn with dead bodies... No it is not the same. This is about the invasion of privacy and turning every citizen of the planet as a potential enemy. and the best bit is.. you defend it. Like you think they really care about your well being..

It's the cyber equivalent, I thought that was pretty clear. The spying on Americans is reprehensible, and I said as much, so stop lying I did not defend it. China launches Cyber attacks against the US, and we attack back. What snowden did was to tell the enemy our battle plans. Pure treason. He should be commended for his first act, and tried and killed for his last act.

Originally posted by Rocker2013

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
There is a point where it's fair to say, hey, this is what intelligence agencies are SUPPOSED to be doing. The problem I've had here is that the NSA and others are prohibited by charter from operating against domestic targets and US citizens. However, spy agencies are supposed to be...well? Spying.

Not against millions of free citizens, of ANY country.

This is the problem here. I think we all agree that the NSA and others are tasked with monitoring terrorists and groups, we expect them to be monitoring governments for military intelligence. We DO NOT expect them to be monitoring millions of people just because they have the ability to do that.

This is not the actions of a government working hard to protect its people and its military interests, this is a government out of control and becoming a direct threat to the democratic process, becoming a threat to free and innocent people around the world, becoming an Orwellian nightmare the magnitude of which we could never have presumed existed in our worst nightmares.

The NSA doesn't need to be hoovering up all this data for storage, but it is. Therefore, Snowden leaking this information is in the interests of the public.

He is still a hero.

When it comes to China I expect them to monitor and gather every single possible piece of information they possibly can, until such time as China stops launching Cyber attacks against the US and its' interests.

I wonder why China didn't pull him off to the side and drill him for the information that he knew our Government had by way of snooping on China? Something seems too laxed, here. It seems like the powers of China would have grabbed this guy and instantly started asking him questions relating to their own national security.

Either they're not taking him serious or...?

According to google news it seems Snowden has moved on.
www.ctvnews.ca...

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
When it comes to China I expect them to monitor and gather every single possible piece of information they possibly can, until such time as China stops launching Cyber attacks against the US and its' interests.

Right, just ignore the fact that the USA has also been caught with plans to attack others in exactly the same way, and probably does so on a daily basis.

Millions of free Chinese people are not justified targets for the NSA. If you think that, then I don't know what's the use debating this with you.

I think you're believing too much of your own US propaganda.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I had originally thought it would just be a positive story to share and the initial headline looked it.

EXCLUSIVE: Snowden safe in Hong Kong, more US cyberspying details revealed

Some National Security is critical and necessary. That's where I'm starting to wonder.....

Yes, yes little rabbit. We should obey our slave masters blindly and without question. After all we are their dearest and most valuable customers.



Perhaps you should call them and tell them how happy you are for their "protection" services.

If he had revealed to the American people the depth of the NSA spying on them ... and then stayed to help fight ... I'd call him a hero and a patriot. A lot of people would. He would have the backing of whistleblower laws and of the American people.

But he went to China and Russia, which are countries that have worse human rights and privacy records. And he then spilled secrets to China and Russia that damage our national security.

So yes .. he went too far. He is not a hero or a patriot.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

It's the cyber equivalent, I thought that was pretty clear. The spying on Americans is reprehensible, and I said as much, so stop lying I did not defend it. China launches Cyber attacks against the US, and we attack back. What snowden did was to tell the enemy our battle plans. Pure treason. He should be commended for his first act, and tried and killed for his last act.

Firstly China is not your enemy. What makes you think they are. The fact they are growing in size does not make them a threat. How many wars has China started outside its own borders in its thousands of years of existence. The USA has been in a perpetual state of war. Again I see you have fallen to defend the aggressors of power.

Secondly. It is China that is more the victim of cyber attacks than the other way around.

Finally why should he be tried for treason unless you belief that people are an enemy of the state. He has not done it to benefit an enemy but the people.

I stand by my statement and you should be ashamed of yourself defending this. The US is in direct violation of international law and my European Human Rights appointed by the EU. Do you think the only people that should have human rights are US citizens. Continue to defend this cartel if you wish whilst I stand here watching the Fourth Estate fall..

Defend you planet. Not your country..

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

All the "leaks" or release of information is very timely IMO...and the internet has been the main vehicle that supplied it. Although the world had right to know how vast and expansive the global spying scheme was, IMO this won't benefit the average joe. If anything this will give the transnational corporations and elitist just what they want, total information domination, by claiming the damages are creating turmoil, therefore tightening the grip over telecommunications and information sharing.

They can't have their wet dream if everyone has access to privy information and disclosures. I don't think we're far off from the internet being totally dominated by corporations and the military. Governments don't matter, the corporations and their henchmen, the "spies and military," do as they will. And an ever growing police state will only serve to justify their fantasies of domination and control.

Basically, the utopian fantasy which we have believed or some have believed, is well on it's way to becoming a dystopian nightmare.

Originally posted by theRhenn
What about this:

What should one do if they find the government going too far in this country? What should he have done?

Why is it, to be sure the people knew about what he found, he had to go to another country to stop from being locked up and the key thrown away?

At what point does a person who feels that their government is doing wrong, come forward with information, so much so that they must flee for their lives?


Doesn't anyone see the problem here? If you find something that the whole country should know... some kind of criminal activity that our government is involved in.. how do you respond? Would you rather that person keep us all in the dark of the crimes commited by government? Or would you rather him say so..? And if he does say so, knowing that he'll be thrown in the deepest darkest dungeon, should he stick around and chance never beaing heard from again and the story just get burried like everything else? If he's out there, out of reach, he can talk and say what he believes... if he's here.. He's captured, the story burried, and we never hear another word. Some how people who have a story to tell tend to get burried under some media red tape and nothing comes of it, once captured. Remember, the details of his case is hush hush by our own country...


I dont know... I think if the guy sees something wrong, his voice should count for something and he should be able to tell his story, and tell the people and let the people decide.

Right now... with all that's happening, I believe this guy more than I believe TPTB in this country. Hell, the only one I trust today is Ron Paul and he's no longer a factor.. crazy or not, he's more trustworthy than anyone I know related to any athority what so ever...


Added:

I should make one more point.. Because of what we know today, what's in the news, what we KNOW our government is actively doing...

How many people here on ATS is afraid to star, flag or even respond to this thread? Funny... It took me a good 10 minutes to hit respond because of the fear and awareness of what's taking place... Then I realised... What's it truely worth?

Just knowing how I reacted scares me simply because I understand how many people WOULDN'T react to a forceful government takeover out of fear of being killed, pulled away from loved ones, or just the unknown...

edit on 22-6-2013 by theRhenn because: (no reason given)

All this time I thought Snowden was simply following Obama's SEE SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING rule. I assume that's only for "other" people.

reply to post by johncarter


The condescension is beneath you.. it really is.

As we're all forming up into mindless lynch mobs against the Security Services the U.S. is using, what I'm saying is that the mindless aspect needs to be checked, just a bit, as we do live in a world where a good % of what they do is NECESSARY.

Snowden, Manning (to some degree) and Ellsberg are all examples of people who saw areas where the necessary became the obscene and spoke out and/or released what they saw to give them such personal conflict. I'm not getting into my mixed feelings on one of the three within that group, but even he had the right intentions...whatever the mixed outcome may have been.

What's pissing me off are the people who would destroy the ENTIRE structure of the U.S. National Security system to get at the extreme abuses contained within it.

If that's the goal here, while other nations of equal or higher ability than our own are doing precisely the same thing around the world and at us?? I have absolutely nothing in common with those folks. That's called anti-American at a level that comes down to disarming our nation before a big fight. It's insuring we cannot, on any level, defend ourselves or even KNOW there is anything to defend against.....given the nature of the area being attacked here.


I really hate how so many know absolutely NO moderation in response to anything. It's *ALL* or nothing. "With us or against us" and I don't mean the Government. I mean people on the internet.

It just can't be, apparently, where anyone can see the need to address very serious issues WITHOUT burning the whole house down in the process. It's called small minded and short sighted thinking, IMO. Moderation in approach isn't a good idea. It's pure survival when dealing with the front line side of National Defense. (and I hate being put in the position of having to even say it....but that's what happens when others want to see it *ALL* destroyed. :shk: )

I also notice that "get 'em all" attitude ..especially from international folks.. rarely if EVER includes the Russian SVR/FSB or Chinese Ministry of State Security. Its's just the U.S. CIA and NSA to be evil. Those others must spend their off days teaching their case officers how to properly hold a note for the church choir.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by sonnny1

 

The question I have isn't whether he's sitting there talking to a Chinese State Security Officer or a Guardian reporter, to be honest. It's about content of what is leaking at this point. Is it fair outrage or is it what the public has been paying these agencies to have been doing instead of the abuses they have been? They do exist for a reason, of course, and if not gathering intelligence on a nation that is doing the same right back at us with a generally adversarial relationship recognized by both, what would the reason be?

Wabbit, I have to say it, but I do not think it actually matters what he is telling foreign Governments. The reason I say that is simple.....

He wouldn't be in some foreign land now, with an opportunity to share secrets with foreign Governments, if it was safe for him to come forward and speak the truth in our Country- his home. No one knows what life for him is like now. Perhaps sharing sensitive info is what is keeping him alive at this point. It certainly gives him value and gives other Countries an incentive to NOT extradite him back to the US. I would not hold it against him if he was sharing secrets. What is he expected to be loyal to? His Country has clearly not been loyal to him has it?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The problem is this though.

Is the rot so bad that just patching it up will work?


I mean it might be so corrupt that yes you may need to pull down the whole NSA, CIA and as well as allied counterparts and then replace them with something else and more moderate that can defend our countries without breaking both national and international laws.....


By the looks of it the entire system is rotten from the top down. Its a horrible mess! And we both USA, UK, Australian, Canadian ect may have to make difficult choices on whether we make our selfs temporally vulnerable and make some security sacrifices to get our freedoms back. And to be honest its pretty arrogant to demand our freedom back without expecting to pay a price.

Look at the USA revolution, they didn't just sit on there bums and cry. They tore down the establishment and made themselves vulnerable in order to build a new world.

Also to win the Revolution the USA had to make allies with some pretty rotten people like the French and spanish who were far more tyrancal than the UK and had no intrest in freedom only hurting the UK. So like the revolutionrys of old we may have to make allies in odd and queationble places.

Same with the UK civil war and how we had to pay a price so we could break away from the tyranny of divine rule by the monarchy....

If we want Freedom ect we may to make some radical changes anc choices.

Its a complex issue and I dont have the awnsers.

reply to post by MrWendal


What line, if any, do you put on that? So far he's told specifics about what he knew of systems with global reach but largely domestic targeting and that matters because that is the only aspect of this entire thing that has applicable U.S. Law to apply and say it's illegal anyway.

These agencies are prohibited from doing that part, so his releases about that, which have comprised the vast majority, make sense and are very much the right thing to do for the needed outcome here. Enough rage in Congress to have a repeat, 2013 style, of the Church and Pike Committees that defanged US Intelligence back to collection agencies only, in many ways, for a good many years. It sure didn't last much longer than that, but put a few steroids into the repeat performance and perhaps some serious good would come from it.

The problem is, he also was in a position, I have little doubt from what we know now, to know about specifics used to collect intelligence on Chinese production, PLA/PLN deployment and communication as well as other real real important things the world really doesn't need the tech sheet on.

So where is the line, if any? I hope he continues to think about it, are my feelings.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by MrWendal

 

real real important things the world really doesn't need the tech sheet on.

So where is the line, if any? I hope he continues to think about it, are my feelings.

The line I think is Civilian.

No is NSA/ CIA are targeting millitary and political stuff then that should not be brought to light as that what any agency is doing.

But targeting Civilian without any just cause internationaly is wrong. Civilians should not be brought into this.

Thats my line anyway.

reply to post by crazyewok


I'll leave that to national policy on how tools are used to collect on other nations. The example I'd found for the thread was of a University in China and apparently one of, if not the top one by how it's played up in the linked story. Were they just blindly spying on College students or was there PLA/State Security mixed in with the University? Their system has more cross over than ours does. It's not that unlikely. After all, one of Snowden's first jobs around U.S. Intelligence was working for a station based at the University of Maryland. Nothing is clear in that world.

The domestic stuff was improper at best, and I believe outright illegal as well as quite possibly unconstitutional (Posse Comitatus). Seriously....where does the Army start and end for definition? That's got legs to run. At 2 years a pop to hand out like door prizes.

The foreign side is the whole point of having these agencies and what did people think they did or were supposed to be doing? The mixing with commercial interests essentially for profit and active manipulation of markets, as it's starting to come out? That really goes along with all the illegal domestic part, I'd say. It all came around to screw us at home, right? Commercial manipulation, I mean.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by crazyewok

 

I'll leave that to national policy on how tools are used to collect on other nations. The example I'd found for the thread was of a University in China and apparently one of, if not the top one by how it's played up in the linked story. Were they just blindly spying on College students or was there PLA/State Security mixed in with the University? Their system has more cross over than ours does. It's not that unlikely. After all, one of Snowden's first jobs around U.S. Intelligence was working for a station based at the University of Maryland. Nothing is clear in that world.

The domestic stuff was improper at best, and I believe outright illegal as well as quite possibly unconstitutional (Posse Comitatus). Seriously....where does the Army start and end for definition? That's got legs to run. At 2 years a pop to hand out like door prizes.

The foreign side is the whole point of having these agencies and what did people think they did or were supposed to be doing? The mixing with commercial interests essentially for profit and active manipulation of markets, as it's starting to come out? That really goes along with all the illegal domestic part, I'd say. It all came around to screw us at home, right? Commercial manipulation, I mean.

No I agree. I mean yeah all countrys need to spy.

But the lines on whats right and wrong are becomeing blured.


NSA should not be spying on me in UK. I am 100% civilian and have no criminal record or tied to any orginasation that has any links with violence or crime.

Nor should our GCHQ be used to spy on Americans that are in the same boat.


Both our intelligance agnecys should not be disrupting or hacking into another nations civilian computers either unless at war or they pose a threat in some way.


But hacking in to militray computers or goverment computers to see what goodies are lying about and to protect us in the long run? Well thats life and what they meant to be doing.

But the line

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000ll leave that to national policy

well thats all well and good but are our countries so corrupt now can we trust them to form national policy anymore?