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Is Snowden starting to go too far with Chinese / International disclosures?

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posted on Jun, 23 2013 @ 11:13 PM
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Originally posted by whyamIhere
It is very difficult for me to let one man decide what is National Security.

Also, it is difficult to believe China is just letting him walk around.

I also don't like the drip of information.

If he has some evidence of 'Violation of the Constitution".

It's time to present the evidence.



The Consitution protects our Liberties, such as free speech, political dissent and much more. What many or perhaps most Americans aren't doing is connecting the dots. Privacy is the wall that leads to all our rights and liberties by how we define ourselves through our beliefs, opinions and preferences. By scrutinizing private information that identifies our beleifs, we can be manipulated, controlled. Especially since what we are calling freedoms, is merely an extension of our individual identities. The autocratic governments of the world use intelligence to preempt freedoms that allow the masses to organize for collective bargaining. In other words, privacy IS liberty. Since this sort of spying is being done in the US against its own people, and clandestinely, it would seem that Snowden's treason represents perhaps a last chance for naive Americans to turn the tide before its too late. If anyone can't make the connection and is waiting for proof, you'll see all the proof you need after the take over.
edit on 23-6-2013 by g2v12 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 23 2013 @ 11:18 PM
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Originally posted by Rocker2013

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
When it comes to China I expect them to monitor and gather every single possible piece of information they possibly can, until such time as China stops launching Cyber attacks against the US and its' interests.


Right, just ignore the fact that the USA has also been caught with plans to attack others in exactly the same way, and probably does so on a daily basis.

Millions of free Chinese people are not justified targets for the NSA. If you think that, then I don't know what's the use debating this with you.

I think you're believing too much of your own US propaganda.


Caught with plans to attack? Plans don't mean much. We have plans to Invade Canada and the UK. Give it a little thought and you can see why. If they didn't have plans they would be failing and should be replaced by someone who will actually do their job.



posted on Jun, 23 2013 @ 11:21 PM
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Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 





It's the cyber equivalent, I thought that was pretty clear. The spying on Americans is reprehensible, and I said as much, so stop lying I did not defend it. China launches Cyber attacks against the US, and we attack back. What snowden did was to tell the enemy our battle plans. Pure treason. He should be commended for his first act, and tried and killed for his last act.


Firstly China is not your enemy. What makes you think they are.

Secondly. It is China that is more the victim of cyber attacks than the other way around.

Finally why should he be tried for treason unless you belief that people are an enemy of the state. He has not done it to benefit an enemy but the people.

Defend you planet. Not your country..

You must be wilfully ignorant. That is some of the stupidest crap I have heard in a long time.
How Chinese hackers steal U.S. secrets
China gained U.S. weapons secrets using cyberespionage

Now show me what secrets the US is stealing from China. Please, I beg you.

He gave China secrets that will help them to continue to attack the US, that's the very definition of enemy of the state.



posted on Jun, 23 2013 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by bjarneorn
You're wrong.

Here in Sweden, you can also read the same "recruitment" messages, by the military. And they are recruiting hackers, and criminals to their lines.

But, where is the line? Hacking chinese computers? That is an attack against a foreign power, and an act of war ... if it's some script kiddie, that's one thing ... if it's an offical NSA/CIA entity ... it's an act of war.


I agree. It's a war China started. They have been hacking western nations for military secrets for a long time. Why do the research and spend the money when you can steal it? What China has done justifies a fullscale military invasion, but at the very least we should be carrying out very strong cyberespionage to defend outselves. Snowden just made that more difficult.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by bjarneorn
You're wrong.

Here in Sweden, you can also read the same "recruitment" messages, by the military. And they are recruiting hackers, and criminals to their lines.

But, where is the line? Hacking chinese computers? That is an attack against a foreign power, and an act of war ... if it's some script kiddie, that's one thing ... if it's an offical NSA/CIA entity ... it's an act of war.


I agree. It's a war China started. They have been hacking western nations for military secrets for a long time. Why do the research and spend the money when you can steal it? What China has done justifies a fullscale military invasion, but at the very least we should be carrying out very strong cyberespionage to defend outselves. Snowden just made that more difficult.


Correct me if I'm wrong. But doesn't our government/military run on SIPRNet? A network separate from the actual internet? How did they hack our military secrets on SIPRNet? According to the link (from CNN lol) you posted, hackers found ways to hack or otherwise trick Contractors. If you think we have right to do fullscale military invasion because we have -extremely- flawed protocols and way too many loose ends if this information exists off of SIPRNet, then I am extremely grateful you are not in a position of power. IMO, the people who have put this information on computers connected to regular internet should be prosecuted, NOT a fullscale invasion into China. Are you insane? Do you understand how many US businesses rely on China?

Incase you're not understanding let me explain to you the difference. It's akin to finding a gold bar outside of a vault. You will take it, there's no repercussions. The person at loss will strengthen their security, it's their fault for letting the gold out of the vault (in a sea of hackers). If they broke into the vault and stole the gold bar, then there is repercussions.

Also, please tell me how they started it. Give exact dates, I'm sure this goes back way beyond the internet, so please.. let me know when you figure it out

I on the otherhand understand the value of "hacks" like this. We "patch our holes", which is actually strengthening our defense. In other words, we will not allow this information to exist off of SIPRNet anymore. And don't be scared if China got some secrets, our technology (military tech) will still be upgraded with time anyway.

sorry for all the edits, it's late.
edit on 24-6-2013 by introV because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-6-2013 by introV because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-6-2013 by introV because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-6-2013 by introV because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 02:29 AM
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reply to post by introV
 


Do I have a war to fight with the chinaman who is planting rice, or the russian who is trying to feed his children, or the indian who is trying to live under pollution by all of the chemical companies in his country?

No.

Who is the enemy? Is it the US gov't? Is it the chinese gov't? Is it the russian gov't? Who is trying to keep secrets here?

I will not be happy until snowden gives out info on gov't officials, and the war they are rendering on the citizens of the world, for their private profit.

I am the least communist/socialist in the world - I want to take the profit out of conspiring against the small people of the world.

Let snowden release some real info about the bankers/politicians/ religious leaders destroying the world - then I'll think he knows something.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 02:44 AM
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Originally posted by introV

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by bjarneorn
You're wrong.

Here in Sweden, you can also read the same "recruitment" messages, by the military. And they are recruiting hackers, and criminals to their lines.

But, where is the line? Hacking chinese computers? That is an attack against a foreign power, and an act of war ... if it's some script kiddie, that's one thing ... if it's an offical NSA/CIA entity ... it's an act of war.


I agree. It's a war China started. They have been hacking western nations for military secrets for a long time. Why do the research and spend the money when you can steal it? What China has done justifies a fullscale military invasion, but at the very least we should be carrying out very strong cyberespionage to defend outselves. Snowden just made that more difficult.


Correct me if I'm wrong. But doesn't our government/military run on SIPRNet? A network separate from the actual internet? How did they hack our military secrets on SIPRNet? According to the link (from CNN lol) you posted, hackers found ways to hack or otherwise trick Contractors. If you think we have right to do fullscale military invasion because we have -extremely- flawed protocols and way too many loose ends if this information exists off of SIPRNet, then I am extremely grateful you are not in a position of power.

So if you don't lock your door and someone comes in and steals everything you own they did not do anything wrong and you should have no recourse? The lock is not what makes it wrong to break in and steal, the lock is there because people will try. Good protocols is not what makes hacking US secrets wrong, the protocols are there because people will try. Your logic is so faulty it's laughable.


IMO, the people who have put this information on computers connected to regular internet should be prosecuted, NOT a fullscale invasion into China. Are you insane? Do you understand how many US businesses rely on China?

So because you have business dealings with your neighbor it's ok for him to steal your car?


Incase you're not understanding let me explain to you the difference. It's akin to finding a gold bar outside of a vault. You will take it, there's no repercussions. The person at loss will strengthen their security, it's their fault for letting the gold out of the vault (in a sea of hackers). If they broke into the vault and stole the gold bar, then there is repercussions.

Actually that's a crime and you will do jail time.


Also, please tell me how they started it. Give exact dates, I'm sure this goes back way beyond the internet, so please.. let me know when you figure it out

What military platforms do the Chinese possess that would enhance US technological knowledge by stealing?


I on the otherhand understand the value of "hacks" like this. We "patch our holes", which is actually strengthening our defense. In other words, we will not allow this information to exist off of SIPRNet anymore. And don't be scared if China got some secrets, our technology (military tech) will still be upgraded with time anyway.

So if we have missile defenses and someone launches missile attacks against us and some get through we should view it as a learning opportunity and do nothing about it?

Your logic on every single point is so faulty it doesn't withstand the briefest of scrutiny.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 02:59 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


I think the only people these gov't's are launching missilles at are "little people" . I think all of the "gov't's" are on one side - theirs.

How about we get some info to make the elites launch missiles at each other and leave us "little people" alone?

The only real example of this in modern times is when the reagan administration launched missilles at ghaddafi's house in Libya.

Let's have putin launch missilles at obozo's house, obozo launch missilles at the pretty first lady in China -

Then - how about cameron, and sarkozy - You know if the elites are the only ones being targeted - they might think twice.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 03:03 AM
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Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


I think the only people these gov't's are launching missilles at are "little people" . I think all of the "gov't's" are on one side - theirs.

How about we get some info to make the elites launch missiles at each other and leave us "little people" alone?

The only real example of this in modern times is when the reagan administration launched missilles at ghaddafi's house in Libya.

Let's have putin launch missilles at obozo's house, obozo launch missilles at the pretty first lady in China -

Then - how about cameron, and sarkozy - You know if the elites are the only ones being targeted - they might think twice.


Ok, but since we live in the real world, what Snowden did was to put every single US citizen at risk. He gave China, who has actively worked against US interests and actively hacked state secrets an advantage over the US in their cyber conflicts. That is treason. That is punishable by death. When conflicts between states do not effect the little guys let me know, because the little guys are the ones who will suffer the most from Snowden's actions.
edit on 24-6-2013 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 03:19 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


What if snowden is just acting for the US gov't in the hopes that "war" breaks out with his leaks about China?

Do you really think that gov't's don't spy on eachother? Most mature adults realize this.

Snowden's "leaks" haven't told us anything that any thinking, rational person wouldn't have known. Propaganda to get the stupid american people all hyped up on war with china? Me thinks so.

Oh! The chinese and russians are going to kill us all because of this traitor!

Distraction to the fact that now america is funding the "mortal enemy of all mankind" AL CIADA in Syria?



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 03:24 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


If a drone can take out a rat in the desert, why can't it take out a rat in the white house, or palace?

To fix syria, take out Assad - not 100,000 nobodies. Same for russia, china, or england.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 03:31 AM
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Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


What if snowden is just acting for the US gov't in the hopes that "war" breaks out with his leaks about China?
Snowden just legitimized Chinese spying. War would be less likely now, not more so.


Do you really think that gov't's don't spy on eachother? Most mature adults realize this.

What's your point? He is helping China spy on the US. That's treason. Most adults realize this.


Snowden's "leaks" haven't told us anything that any thinking, rational person wouldn't have known. Propaganda to get the stupid american people all hyped up on war with china? Me thinks so.

How is war with China being hyped when what Snowden is doing is legitimizing China's cyber-espionage? Whether what Snowden has said was "guessed" at by people is irelevant. China can "guess" the US is spying on them all they want, Snowden gave them proof.


Oh! The chinese and russians are going to kill us all because of this traitor!

No, the next time we catch the Chinese spying they will throw Snowden in our face and use his information to twist the fact we caught them red handed.

You have been wrong on every single point you made to the point where I don't think you even understand the story in the slightest.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 04:00 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


And we spy on China. And russia. And iran. Hell, we spy on israel.

Let's all go to war over it. Instead, why don't we just target and drone the leaders of the countries? They are ultimately responsible for the "horrid spying"?

Let's go after the technology and crash it? No more spying.

Why send our military troops out to die for "spying"?



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 04:07 AM
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Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


And we spy on China. And russia. And iran. Hell, we spy on israel.

Yes, and if a Russian came over to the US and gave us secrets to help us spy on Russia he is a traitor, and I would fully expect the Russians to want to kill him. Why would it be ok for them to help another country spy on their home country?


Let's all go to war over it. Instead, why don't we just target and drone the leaders of the countries? They are ultimately responsible for the "horrid spying"?

Let's go after the technology and crash it? No more spying.

Why send our military troops out to die for "spying"?

The best reason would be because they arent stealing military technology to not build it. Who do you think will be the ones to suffer if China uses US military tech against the US? Me. You. The little people. Obama will be safe in his bunker. Snowden is helping the Chinese hurt the little guy in America. It's called treason, and he deserves to be killed like the traitor he is.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 04:30 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


So, why don't we make all technology pubic - and weapons of mass destruction.

Let the people decide if it's right to manipulate viruses and weaponize them - and vaccines.

I would think the little people would say "Hell No".

Let's have vaccine tests on the elites and make them public - see if they work.

No secrets - all truth - to everyone.

Then, let's look at the financial institutions -- the IMF, World Bank, Federal Reserve - NO SECRETS.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 04:40 AM
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Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


So, why don't we make all technology pubic - and weapons of mass destruction.

So you are in favor of giving every person nuclear weapons and let them choose to use or not use them? Are you out of your freaking mind?


Let the people decide if it's right to manipulate viruses and weaponize them - and vaccines.

So you want any maladjusted person to be able to release weaponized viruses on the world? What???


I would think the little people would say "Hell No".

And when religious extremists detonated nuclear weapons all over the world you would realize how wrong you are.


Let's have vaccine tests on the elites and make them public - see if they work.

What does that have to do with Snowden giving China US secrets?


No secrets - all truth - to everyone.

Then, let's look at the financial institutions -- the IMF, World Bank, Federal Reserve - NO SECRETS.

What does this have to do with Snowden?



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 04:51 AM
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I think Snowden merely informed the public of what is going on.

Most of us get our ideas of security in truth from tv and films. All of which influences in a detached manner what we think and believe.

Snowden told us that our own States have turned their eyes inwards and onto us, who are paying the minions who are spying on us. I had no comprehension that GCHQ was spying on my private life and blythely tripping it over the airwaves to a foreign country and now it appears foreign countries.

If this is done to us personally then its done to our industries and businesses and all their trade secrets that keep jobs in our respective countries.

We know well in the UK that none of this information is kept safely because of the disclosures of information being found on trains, left briefcases and hacked.

The real implication of this information however vast it is is worrying simply because data bases sift specific points and so can access specific details easily. Just one example is health information and more importantly our DNA. The implication being that a country could gear its chemical weaponry towards genetic warfare thereby detroying vast swathes of population and leaving the infrastructure of the loser's country intact. Can you see it now looking at today's world? Saudi could suddenly decided it didn't like Russian support for Iran or their oil deal with China. It could simply buy the necessary information and uitilise it making a smaller nation a considerable threat to any of the superpowers.

Its actually seeing the big picture and the dangers the right or wrong of this actually poses for all of us.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 05:03 AM
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reply to post by Shiloh7
 


The problem is that the OP does not address that. That part could be commendable. The OP is talking about Snowden giving China secret information on the US spying activies against China. THAT is where his actions become treason.



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 05:04 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


Just think about all the "maladjusted" people who have nuclear arms now.

Let's have the elites try out new drugs, instead of third world peoples in south america and africa - let's see how safe and anti-infertile they make people.

Remember that "hot" spy - what's her name? The US let her go back to russia - looks like the whole benghazi thing was to trade a diplomat (CIA) agent for gitmo "hostages"

Come on - look at the "maladjusted" leaders supposedly running the world

Putin - need I say more?

OK - Obozo. Hillary Clinton. George bush. bill Clinton. Yasar affafat. ect......



posted on Jun, 24 2013 @ 05:27 AM
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Originally posted by Happy1
reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


Just think about all the "maladjusted" people who have nuclear arms now.

Let's have the elites try out new drugs, instead of third world peoples in south america and africa - let's see how safe and anti-infertile they make people.

Remember that "hot" spy - what's her name? The US let her go back to russia - looks like the whole benghazi thing was to trade a diplomat (CIA) agent for gitmo "hostages"

Come on - look at the "maladjusted" leaders supposedly running the world

Putin - need I say more?

OK - Obozo. Hillary Clinton. George bush. bill Clinton. Yasar affafat. ect......


If you can not make a post addressing the OP just stop. You keep making the same silly off topic posts that have nothing to do with Snowden giving state secrets to China that will HURT the little guys, not the elite.



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