Is Snowden starting to go too far with Chinese / International disclosures?

reply to post by crazyewok

Well, it's hard to say on what they do outside the US borders and that may sound a bit harsh, but it's what it is for that. It's not clear for being illegal or something actionable under U.S. law either way.

Let's look at this another way, when the United States was harboring, by tolerance of society, fund raisers and active supporters of the I.R.A., was England within it's rights to peek across the pond and watch them in the U.S.? I'd say they were....and I'll leave it at that, for a general example of where I think it has it's place.

On your other point? That corruption is what needs to be dug out. This has happened before. It was addressed and dealt with before. It didn't go near far enough the last time. As much as each generation sometimes thinks a thing is brand new, sometimes technology is the only main factor to have changed. Tech and Scale of abuse that has made possible has sure changed....but the general facts of what happened here and how, have come before.

Background of Church/Pike and other 1970's efforts

^^ That is on the CIA site as a fair notice for the paranoid about loading their website for any reason. It gives a general history to the various actions that meant anything, taken to change the way they've operated. More can be found in any number of sources for each, but that happens to put it all on one page.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Well, it's hard to say on what they do outside the US borders and that may sound a bit harsh, but it's what it is for that. It's not clear for being illegal or something actionable under U.S. law either way

Then can I ask you this. Is it ok then for GCHQ do be doing exactly the same as the NSA on innocent americans who have no affilitation with anything?

No its not illegal but its still unethical and unnecessary. Plus its open for abuse like the UK spying on the USA and the USA spying on the UK and then both swaping data!

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Let's look at this another way, when the United States was harboring, by tolerance of society, fund raisers and active supporters of the I.R.A., was England within it's rights to peek across the pond and watch them in the U.S.? I'd say they were....and I'll leave it at that, for a general example of where I think it has it's place.

Well that was really goverment to goverment stuff and did not really affect me or the adverage American.
And to be honnest I have no problem NSA spying on UK citizens who are affiliated with dangrous groups and hideing over here.

Thats all fair game.

It when they start holding data of those who are 100% not involved with anything.


Its a mirky confussing situation.

And the whole can of worms may need to be exposed for the situation to be improved.

reply to post by crazyewok


Well, realistically, it probably is right for England's version to be trying to spy on us. The problem there becomes how both nations are so deeply in bed to be almost indistinguishable in this area, which means neither much watches or cares for how the other abuses that and goes too far. (let alone countering it, outright)

The fact it's attempted though? I don't have to like the fact it's done and others like Pollard for Israel show it is done regularly enough between allies to be ..disturbing. It makes it worse that the NSA and others seem to be putting as much work into turning their vast tax payer funded snoop tools inward when countering what is done from the outside might not be a better use. Since it seems they have that much more than they need to be watching outward with to start.

Perhaps asking WHY they need to keep such an apparent surplus of capability is a good place to start too. Budget cutting being a big thing these days and all.

I do agree it may all come out in the wash by the end, if this runs the course similar to the 70's. I'll still hope the detail level which give adversarial nations an unbalanced advantage by knowing about at this point is at a real minimum. Some other stories indicate a sudden and rather urgent interest across Chinese infrastructure, for replacing a certain type of router and hardware set. Not the most helpful for real world consequence which may well be related.

You're wrong.

Here in Sweden, you can also read the same "recruitment" messages, by the military. And they are recruiting hackers, and criminals to their lines.

But, where is the line? Hacking chinese computers? That is an attack against a foreign power, and an act of war ... if it's some script kiddie, that's one thing ... if it's an offical NSA/CIA entity ... it's an act of war.

Originally posted by Rocker2013
This is the problem here. I think we all agree that the NSA and others are tasked with monitoring terrorists and groups, we expect them to be monitoring governments for military intelligence.

Collection targets are not limited to terrorists and military intelligence. They include foreign intelligence agencies, agents and assets of those agencies, government officials, businesses, diplomats, scientists, criminals, and potential agents, among others. The purpose of the Intelligence Community is not just to collect terrorist and military intelligence, but all information that can help in foreign affairs, economic policy, and defense. China (and other countries that might surprise you) absolutely spy on civilian targets in the US. A reciprocal effort is a proportionate response and therefore may be legal under international humanitarian law.

We DO NOT expect them to be monitoring millions of people just because they have the ability to do that.

Given the nature of modern communications systems, it is impossible to find your actual target without intercepting, at least incidentally, non-targets. That doesn't mean they are actually "monitored" in any meaningful sense.

Everyone does this. Let us not affect Victorian shock over the normal international behavior of states. If China has a problem with it, they can negotiate a treaty to put a stop to it. But the intel they get from their own hackers is too juicy to call a cease fire.

Originally posted by theRhenn
I wonder why China didn't pull him off to the side and drill him for the information that he knew our Government had by way of snooping on China? Something seems too laxed, here. It seems like the powers of China would have grabbed this guy and instantly started asking him questions relating to their own national security.

Either they're not taking him serious or...?

I see a few possibilities.

1. He is lying about China not drilling him for information.

2. He passed everything he knew before he defected, as the price of safe conduct through Hong Kong.

3. China stole all his information through clandestine means--copied the laptops going through customs, then intercepted his passwords via keylogger, acoustic signatures, or compromising emanations. (Or they built in back doors.)

4. China determined he simply doesn't know all that much. I haven't seen any releases classified beyond TS/SI (yet), which is the entry-level clearance for the NSA. If China already has an NSA penetration, they probably know everything Snowden does. If this is the case, you can expect a string of "revelations" from Snowden that are actually from their source in place. In fact, I expect that in any case--they will use him for propaganda if they don't have actual secrets to launder through him. (If they are really cheeky, they will set up a blog called Signals Intelligence Information Bulletin or something like that.)

reply to post by StoutBroux


Very good point!

Originally posted by FurvusRexCaeli

Originally posted by theRhenn
I wonder why China didn't pull him off to the side and drill him for the information that he knew our Government had by way of snooping on China? Something seems too laxed, here. It seems like the powers of China would have grabbed this guy and instantly started asking him questions relating to their own national security.

Either they're not taking him serious or...?

I see a few possibilities.

1. He is lying about China not drilling him for information.

2. He passed everything he knew before he defected, as the price of safe conduct through Hong Kong.

3. China stole all his information through clandestine means--copied the laptops going through customs, then intercepted his passwords via keylogger, acoustic signatures, or compromising emanations. (Or they built in back doors.)

4. China determined he simply doesn't know all that much. I haven't seen any releases classified beyond TS/SI (yet), which is the entry-level clearance for the NSA. If China already has an NSA penetration, they probably know everything Snowden does. If this is the case, you can expect a string of "revelations" from Snowden that are actually from their source in place. In fact, I expect that in any case--they will use him for propaganda if they don't have actual secrets to launder through him. (If they are really cheeky, they will set up a blog called Signals Intelligence Information Bulletin or something like that.)

Perhaps, but in either case, It's odd not to see China use this against the US in a smear campain. Russia has said more against it than China, while China being one of the main ones mentioned in this whole spill.

It seems like China would be barking at the US for this. They're very quiet about it. Of course, I read that China is just as bad at it by letting their people go without punishment when they hack into the US systems.

I cant tell if everyone's playing together or if it's some sort of crazy false flag to cover yet another hidden agenda.

It looks too clean... Soemthing about all of this just doesnt fit.

reply to post by theRhenn


Games within games and there are big big pieces I don't think we're seeing clearly. They're there ...somewhere ...because what we do see, doesn't make good sense for what is happening here. This and a couple other situations in the world right now aren't making entire sense based on what we can see of things.

This is happening too easily and I looked pretty hard at Ecuador. The U.S. accounts for over 35% of it's exports and over 25% of it's imports. 1/4 or more of that entire side of their national economy. It doesn't make much sense without more being involved here than we can see.

No.
Extreme circumstances require extreme measures.

Privacy breaching behind our backs has gone too far and far too long, it's becoming much more elaborate and extensive than was once thought through technological and radio wave advancements throughout the decades, I like to view it similar the construction of a hive, building over time - slowly. Snowden is in the right for what he is doing, and he's going about it like a true mastermind It's about time this deviant game has been brought to light both domestically and "internationally". definitely internationally.

I don't recalling signing off on any of this privacy breaching? Do you?

I think Snowden should spill his guts. Full disclosure. Its time the corruption of the US govt be aired. Hell, the founding fathers went to war over less. Its time for we the people to stand up and take this country back. To quote the liberal mantra by any means necessary.

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it…” - U.S. Declaration of Independence . Words to live by

"Is Snowden starting to go too far with Chinese"

Can you go to far with the truth ?

Americans need to ask themselves just how often can they look themselves in the eye and say they are Free or will they hate anyone who point out the chains they are wearing and attack the messenger.

Spying on China is an act of war, spying on Americans is an act of the farmer surveying his flock of sheep or so it seems.

They pulled Snowden's passport but when did that ever stop an illegal immigrant entering the USA and being given money, food and shelter so why should Russia respect any request to stop Snowden from Flying to a safe haven.

Is Snowden starting to go too far with Chinese / International disclosures?

This guy is no treasure house of sooper see-crit information to bring down the west. He's a PR coup for China and Russia... which didn't have to happen had our country not set loose the Extradition Inquisition of Waterboarding and Rendering.

It's all about making him an example to instill a healthy dose of fear into the public... so we don't think we are some kind of genuine nation of liberty and constitutional laws.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I do not believe there is a line.

The only thing Snowden needs to be concerned with is himself and his survival. From what I have read in the last 24 hours, he is now being moved from Honk Kong, flying to Moscow and from there going to Iceland- with help from the Russians.

Now let us say there is a price tag to this help and the Russians want information in exchange. I have no problem if Snowden provided it. Really... what choice does he have?

This whole situation is the definition of Irony. I mean let us really think about this for a second. The US has now charged Snowden with Espionage by the US.

Now what exactly is "espionage"? According to the dictionary, it is defined as

1. the act or practice of spying.

Do I really need to even point out the irony in this? Our Government has charged Snowden with spying when he was doing so on their behalf.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by theRhenn

 

Games within games and there are big big pieces I don't think we're seeing clearly. They're there ...somewhere ...because what we do see, doesn't make good sense for what is happening here. This and a couple other situations in the world right now aren't making entire sense based on what we can see of things.

This is happening too easily and I looked pretty hard at Ecuador. The U.S. accounts for over 35% of it's exports and over 25% of it's imports. 1/4 or more of that entire side of their national economy. It doesn't make much sense without more being involved here than we can see.

Kinda makes you wonder if it's all a ruze. I look at it and say "that's just not possible.. no way that's it" but the more I look at it, I get that weird thought in the back of my mind that this is all too familiar.

Funny.. I never though I would understand this one quatrain until now. I know this isn't about prophecy and I'm not one to go on spouting Nostradamus but I always did enjoy reading the work... And I think now for once this applies in some weird off the wall sort of way...


X1:Q91
The Gods will make it appear to mankind
that they are the authors of a great war.
Before the sky was seen to bee free of weapons and rockets:
the greatest damage will be inflicted on the left.


I always took this as people thinking that what was happening was God made but in reality it was man made.

I've seen varients of this quatrain to read more how I took it to be. I guess it could be confused and read either way. (gods make it appear that man? Or That they, the gods, are the authors..) It could be that the powers that be are all playing their little games.


Or maybe I should just come back down to reality and understand that based on how imports and exports work, countries... the ultimate business men, are playing games with one another to rely on one another so nothing ever really gets accomplished, either by war, by treasons or by trade.

who knows

The Chinese are claiming that the decision to let Snowden fly out to Russia was done totally without their consent or approval, Hong Kong Government acted on their own.

USA announced this morning that they've revoked his passport - this took them about a month to accomplish this?

There are so many issues around this that simply don't make sense to me, that at this point I'm waiting to see how this plays out.

He claims that he did this because he "loves freedom" but is then going from Russian, to Cuba, to possibly Venezuela. None of which are particularly bastions of freedom of expression.

You OP should ask the other question . Is NSA go to far with spying ? This is another false patriotic thread when OP attacking the messenger and avoiding the message . US goverment is looking in your kitchen and bath room and you attack honest 29 year old men who is sick with NSA . This is discusting ... when your children and grandchildren ask you in the future whAt did you do to stop this nightmare Orwelian state you will response...what ?. SHAME ON YOU !

I personally do not think he is going to far. I think he should tell the government everything he knows. Why?

Because I am not American and I could care less if the entire government and military of the US burns to the ground. All they have done for us is infect us with pine beetles and mad cow disease.

The US treats its own people worse than China does its own. The US looks strong and happy in Hollywood but pardon me if some of us stopped rooting for you a LONG time ago.

Good luck America. Snowden won't cause any long term damage on his own. But Him and Bradley are just the start of a wave dissent that will take place in the US. American kids are good kids, they don't agree with the way the world is run. You bring them into the work force because the 'old guard' is getting senile and can't do their job anymore, well don't expect them to believe the neocon belief, or be even a little bit intimidated by threats.
They are not afraid like their parents were.

Obama said during his feast of lies commonly known as 'campaigning for office' that he wanted full transparency.

Well, he got it and now it's called treason?

He should be thanking Snowden for doing his fookin' job for him.

Am I the only one that feels that all this discussion of where Snowden is and where he is going is just a little too loud? If I was going to do this, I'd tell them I was in Hong Kong when I was on the other side of the world, at the very least. And I'd be fast growing a beard, my hair out, changing its color and looking into surreptitious plastic surgery.

I'm hoping he got so far into the Secrets and the Black Budget that he knows all about the alien threat, the off-planet military personnel like McKinnon reported, and he'll blow the whole wad if he's so much as threatened with extradition. In fact, I'd be astonished if that exact contingency wasn't put in the hands of Glenn Greenwald and a host of others for backup.

Notice Snowden looked into the camera right straight on and told the truth; (and how utterly refreshing that was!), simply that he thought the American people should know what their government, that they were being charged taxes at gunpoint for, was doing.

Time for a real discussion, a real democratic republic and the psychopaths to be hung by the neck until dead, which would be a good 85% of the people in government, the banking and the industrial CEOs and Boards of Directors that value profits over human life and global sustainability.

What kind of world would we have had if everyone had been telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth for the past few hundred years? What if we considered a representative of the people lying to the people as a form of unthinkable treason?

What if, as sometimes alleged, the aliens that landed at Roswell were telepathic, knew what the military was thinking, and THAT is why they were so feared? Well, what Snowden did was the second best thing to telepathy, and he gifted us all with it.

Long Live Snowden! He certainly made it clear to everyone what side Obama is on, the side of secrecy, lies and continued terrorist attacks designed to create ever more blowback. That way lies permanent paranoia.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Wrabbit; excellent OP.

I'm sure this won't be the popular opinion, but the fact that US government agencies have major operations focused on spying on China isn't really breaking news. While we in the US often hear about agents of the government of China hacking into various US government, corporate and NGO networks and systems; the US mainstream media never reports about the US government doing the same thing to China. The US media and US government communicate the Chinese infiltration of US systems with outrage and try to get the public outraged that this is occurring. Because our government's actions in situations like this give new meaning to the term hypocrisy, when the US does it, it is for the best; when China does the same thing, outrage outrage outrage!