Muslim woman loses her baby in france

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Yep just as stupid as saying 911 was karma for the USA.

I would like to see a western woman in Saudi Arabia be able to walk around without a veil, why is that not allowed? Do you think she would get beat up too?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


It's not the head covering people take issue with, it's the face covering. You don't know who is under the "mask" so to speak. For all anyone knows it could be a white man with darker makeup around his eyes hiding from a warrant or trying to sneak around for nefarious reasons.

Cover their head and hair all they want, but there's no reason to hide the face. I'm not allowed to walk around with a bandana or mask over my face, why should anyone else be? There's absolutely no reason legitimate reason hide who you are.

reply to post by EViLKoNCEPTz


O contrair did you not know that middle eastern men are so turned on by the sight of a woman’s face and body that it provokes them to rape which is not their fault but the women’s?

reply to post by guitarplayer


Yeah, no. That's stupid pigs not having self control. And it has no place in a civilized society. There is zero reason for them to hide their faces. If they want to live in our countries they must abide by our laws. It was illegal to cover your face long before they started immigrating here en mass, why should that change? We have to follow their laws in their land then they have to follow ours in our land.

Like I said no one cares if they cover their head and hair, it's the face's no one wants covered. Hell for all you know that woman in the veil could really be me walking amongst you.

reply to post by mideast


This is just so sad.
No matter what this woman is or does, she does not deserve to loose her baby. This is just horrible.

This is a very unfortunate proof of how violent French society is becoming (just like most western societies). French society is becoming everyday more binary.
As a French guy, it really does pain me to see that.

reply to post by StarsInDust

People should just be able to get along on this planet.

I agree

If she feels comfortable in this style, then she should be allowed to wear it

No, she should not!
France is not UK or US (with all due respect for these countries). Communitarianism has nothing to do in France.
France was built on the idea/basis that we are all equal within the French nation, and that the country/laws pass before everything else in public.
Religion is a private/intimate thing. Wearing the full face hijab/niqab is just telling other French people that she does not care about the French nation, that she is obeying religion before obeying the French laws. This is the beginning of the destruction of the French nation.
I am not trying to sound like a fear mongering guy and shouting at some muslim invasion of Europe, I do not believe in that.
I just mean that her actions are totally opposite to the basis, the foundation ideals of the French nation.

I want to repeat that whatever she is or did, she does not deserve loosing her baby, this is just horrible.
We have laws to regulate our life & structure the society. We have the tools to deal with such people (wearing hijab/niqab): the laws. We have the people to enforce these rules: the police.
We do not need a bunch of violent morons/militia to enforce their own rules & judgment.

Note: I often see (and participate in) such discussions with the hijab/niqab in mind, but I want to add that I have the same speech for people wearing the kippa (or any other showy religion sign) in public.

reply to post by mideast


I am sorry you think the plethora of valid criticisms aimed at Muslims is Islamophobic behavior. I am also sorry to see you trying to fan the fires using this tragedy that is equally disgusting.

I just wanted to add this comment to Misbah concerning his creeping Sharia fantasy post ...

Originally posted by Misbah
I pray to Allah to keep me alive til the day I see France become an Islamic state. What a peaceful day in will indeed be..

So Misbah how woud you feel if I said this .... "I pray to God to keep me alive until the day I see France become a Catholic state. Catholic laws only. Catholic holidays only. Meatless Fridays. No artificial birth control. Anyone not Catholic would have to pay a dhimmi 'protection tax' to the Catholic government. Only Catholic schools for children. Only Catholic prayers in the Catholic schools and on TV. Catholic guidelines for dressing and if those guidelines aren't followed you'd be beaten by Catholic morals police and thrown in jail. Only Catholic bibes allowed and to try to bring a Qu'ran in the country would get you thrown in jail. "

How would you feel if you were stuck living in a society like that?
That wouldn't be fair at all and it would be a nightmare for you, wouldn't it?
That's exactly how non-muslims feel when they read a post like yours.

Secular rule of law is the ONLY fair law.
Stop trying to push your religion on other people.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Massive respect for your post Flyers Fan
Eloquent and straight to the point

Cody

reply to post by KarmaComa

Hey KarmaComa!

It is all a very nice sentiment, but it infringes on the fundamental freedom of people to express themselves as they wish. Wearing a hijab/burqa doesn't harm anyone else. It is nobody else's business, least of all the state, to dictate how one should follow their religious convictions, especially when they don't affect anyone else in the slightest. There is a huge difference between a secular state (where religion and government is separate, and one doesn't advocate the other in any way) and an atheist state (that actively pushes for the abandonment of religion).

Should a Sikh have to remove his turban to become French?
Should a Christian have to feel embarrassment and shame when admitting they believe in God?
Should a Muslim be held in contempt because she somehow denigrates "Frenchness" by declining to sample the wine?

Anyhow, religiousness in general being besides the point, with the focus on Islam and muslims, it is nice that you state that you'd say the same about the kippah or any other symbol of religiousness. Pity your compatriots in government don't feel the same, and have a desire to especially target muslims:


There are 4 nations in the world today where a woman's dress is nationally regulated by the government: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Belgium and...France.
Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité indeed!

reply to post by FlyersFan

So Misbah how woud you feel if I said this .... "I pray to God to keep me alive until the day I see France become a Catholic state. Catholic laws only. Catholic holidays only. Meatless Fridays. No artificial birth control. Anyone not Catholic would have to pay a dhimmi 'protection tax' to the Catholic government. Only Catholic schools for children. Only Catholic prayers in the Catholic schools and on TV. Catholic guidelines for dressing and if those guidelines aren't followed you'd be beaten by Catholic morals police and thrown in jail. Only Catholic bibes allowed and to try to bring a Qu'ran in the country would get you thrown in jail. "

If at all a state governed by Catholic doctrines existed, I imagine Muslims would have no choice but to play by the states rules, as long as they are within its borders. Such a state could have existed, but we both know religion is on the decline in Europe... which is largely secular.

A secular state allows for many things that your hypothetical Catholic state would have prohibited with the same strictness as a Muslim state. But it does NOT force Muslims to adopt secular lifestyles and live their lives like non-Muslims. Instead secularism, allows freedom of religion.... not a complete absence of religion.

How would you feel if you were stuck living in a society like that? That wouldn't be fair at all and it would be a nightmare for you, wouldn't it? That's exactly how non-muslims feel when they read a post like yours.

So just who is forcing anybody to move to a society that you find uncomfortable?
If alcohol, pork, revealing clothing, promiscuity and homosexuality mean so much to someone, they have the freedom to move to countries that celebrate those things. Why complain about other cultures that prohibit these things?

Secular rule of law is the ONLY fair law. Stop trying to push your religion on other people

Secular law allows for people to practise their religion... no one is trying to push their diets and dressing code on to other people.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Instead secularism, allows freedom of religion.... not a complete absence of religion.

Secularism is an absence of religion in government which allows for freedom of religion for everyone.
It's the only fair way to run a country. It's the only smart way.

If alcohol, pork, revealing clothing, promiscuity and homosexuality mean so much to someone, they have the freedom to move to countries that celebrate those things.

People shouldn't have to leave their own country because a bunch of Sharia minded people with a mindset from the year 600, take over the government. It isn't the governments business if a person drinks alcohol, or eats bacon. It's none of their business who people choose to have sex with.

no one is trying to push their diets and dressing code on to other people.

Read the thread. Misbah is. He said he can't wait for France to become an Islamic state. And Islamic states do indeed push their diets and dress code and all the other restrictions upon people. Even you said it in your second quote on this post .... 'alcohol, pork, clothing, the right to have sex with whomever a person wishes, homosexuality' ... all personal choices and all would be INTRUDED upon and INVADED by a Sharia government.


The creeping Sharia hopefuls just LUV to push their religion on others via an uber-controlling government. Like I said, they wouldn't like it very much if that controlling government was Catholic and pushed it's religion on people and forced them to abide by their archaic religious rules. Those Sharia-hopefuls should keep that in mind when they start wishing Sharia on others. They wouldn't like it too much if the tables were turned ....

Secular rule of law ... the only way to go!!

reply to post by babloyi

but it infringes on the fundamental freedom of people to express themselves as they wish.

That, is an American founding ideal, the freedom of speech.
The French law is to forbid showy religious signs in public.
In France, freedom of speech is not as free & open as US: in France you are basically not allowed to insult anyone. French congress (Assemblée Nationale) has concluded that the showy religious signs were going against men & women dignity and equality, therefore contrary to the republic values.

Pity your compatriots in government don't feel the same, and have a desire to especially target muslims.

+1
If you can read French, I would recommend to check out some French news sites & forums.
There is a very nasty political correctness about Jews in France, from the political people, which is rejected by many people.
Example: a few weeks ago, following some world finance agreement, JL Mélenchon (left wing party leader) said that P Moscovici (socialist party member & finance minister) was thinking "international finance" rather than "France". Moscovici is a Jew, and the socialist party called Mélenchon an antisemite person.
I am sick seeing some French government members wearing the kippah when they meet the Jewish community as French government officials (e.g; Fabius, Moscovici). On a private basis they are free to do so, but as not French government officials.
This double standard makes me sick.
I actually once looked at filing an official complaint about that, & take it to court.
Time, money, and also a good portion of laziness has pushed this project away so far.

Should a Christian have to feel embarrassment and shame when admitting they believe in God?
Should a Muslim be held in contempt because she somehow denigrates "Frenchness" by declining to sample the wine?

The answer is "absolutely no".
I would like to answer in a longer sentence, but I have to admit I fail to see why you are asking these questions..

There are 4 nations in the world today where a woman's dress is nationally regulated by the government: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Belgium and...France.
Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité indeed

Can a woman be topless in the street in Dallas (for example)? She would be taken away for decent exposure. Isn't it a national regulation of a woman's dress code?
Additionaly, please add to your list: Belgium, Turkey, Holland (soon).

There are millions of muslim (and other religious people) who live perfectly well their religion in France.
Most French catholics are actually defending the French secularity. There were heavy clashes between catholics and non-catholics in early 20th century, around the French secularity being put in place (1905).
We are now living something similar with islam.

Then please,do you really believe that a woman is willingly wearing a burqa/niqab/integral veil?

reply to post by Misbah


Never going to happen, many here we fight against france and or any other country becoming an Islamic state, just as many of us will fight against any religion running state affairs.
Sorry to say this but why do you want to force this upon us? we do not want it and If it comes to a fight I will fight against it tooth and nail as will many more.

reply to post by KarmaComa

Originally posted by KarmaComa
That, is an American founding ideal, the freedom of speech.

It goes earlier than America, but yes, sure. However, I'm pretty certain that the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, off which the French constitution is based, includes freedom of expression (racist and religious hate speech being excluded, of course, but wearing a hijab/burqa doesn't count as either of those).

Originally posted by KarmaComa
French congress (Assemblée Nationale) has concluded that the showy religious signs were going against men & women dignity and equality, therefore contrary to the republic values.

Is following your religion a "showy religious sign"? Again, I provide the example of turbans for Sikhs. You see one and you can immediately identify them as a Sikh (unless you're an ignorant and confuse them for a muslim). It is part of their garb. I suppose it is pointless discussing this with you, because you're not a policy-maker. It seems to me that France is struggling with this stuff. The idea of religious liberty clashes pretty oddly with the French idea of secularism- but so far, in an official, legal capacity, it is only in public schools that wearing of hijab and other religious garb is prohibited, as far as I can see (well, that and the specificity of the burqa in public).

Originally posted by KarmaComa

Should a Christian have to feel embarrassment and shame when admitting they believe in God?
Should a Muslim be held in contempt because she somehow denigrates "Frenchness" by declining to sample the wine?

The answer is "absolutely no".
I would like to answer in a longer sentence, but I have to admit I fail to see why you are asking these questions..

Because I am addressing your statements (and French ideas) on the idea of French secularism, which it seems to me to be "Keep that in your house, we don't want to see it!"

Originally posted by KarmaComa
Can a woman be topless in the street in Dallas (for example)? She would be taken away for decent exposure. Isn't it a national regulation of a woman's dress code?
Additionaly, please add to your list: Belgium, Turkey, Holland (soon).

Perhaps not in Dallas, but I was speaking about national regulations (not state-wide). In that sense, Turkey doesn't fit either.

Originally posted by KarmaComa
Then please,do you really believe that a woman is willingly wearing a burqa/niqab/integral veil?

I personally know several who do. Do you know any personally who have been forced, that you make that assumption?

reply to post by babloyi


Babylon,

I would like to ask you a question. It is not an attack, but I'm genuinely curious and hope you can help me understand.

You stated that you know a few women who choose to wear burqa. This is, admittedly due to my western upbringing, incomprehensible to me. Why do these women choose to wear the burqa? Do they believe God/Allah requires it? Do Muslim women in general believe they should be subservient to men?

I grew up Baptist and wanted to be a missionary. I went to college and majored in theology...and was absolutely shocked at the way some of my fellow male students treated me. They said I was unequal to a man and the only way I could minister was to children or women, and then only under the direct supervision of a man. This attitude IN NO WAY reflects the majority of Christian beliefs....and I have a feeling the radical element in Islam is much the same. The idea that I, as a woman, am somehow less important or less worthy than a man, is ridiculous.

I genuinely look forward to your answer.

reply to post by smyleegrl

Hey Smiley!

No attack taken, it isn't me wearing the burqa or hijab anyhow.

As far as your question goes, when I asked them about it, the response was generally (and I am talking now about both women here in the west who wear it, as well as those in traditionally muslim societies) along the lines of "asserting their independence" and "being on equal footing as a human being, rather than just being seen as just a 'woman'" and "asserting their muslimness". I don't think they see it as "being subservient to men" at all. Most of them are quite strong willed, two of them are even wearing the hijab/burqa despite the disapproval of their parents (who think they'll never get married).
To clarify, most women who wear the burqa don't wear a burqa ALL the time, only when in public. For example, one friend of mine who wears the burqa is a teacher, but when she's in school teaching her students, she takes it off (but wears a hijab). Another friend wears a hijab in public, but then takes that off while with people she knows.

reply to post by smyleegrl

Mideast, one of the reasons I'm so glad you are on ATS is that you can help us "Westerners" better understand your religion and your culture.

Thanks for the support.

What I think a lot of us fear is that sharia law allows for little personal freedom

We are not completely free beings. We are stuck to our body , to the place where the body is. We have to eat and there are many reasons that we are not free.

Ibrahamic religion is an instruction which can give humans the opportunity to be free from lots of urges and needs to let them see behind this material world.(Ibrahamic confirms that the instruction comes from the creator who wants us free,not slaves)

Religion is a bundle of instructions which bring restrictions for all the followers.And no religion is dictated by force although many parents do.

It is the freedom which helps us choose the instructions to be the restrictions in our life styles.

There are many restrictions for men ,too. But western media doesn't like to monitor that. + Many apparent rich male Muslims don't accept their boundaries ,too.

So , what we have is bunch of boundaries both for men and women. We believe they are not equal and that is at least what the nature of men and women tell us.

We believe the creator who created the difference , told us how they should act in the way they are made and designed for.

And the more I do , the more I discover it is true.

I don't want someone dictating to me how I should dress, worship, etc

Like I said , we are all free to choose , bu when we choose we may get the illusion that we have been forced. But that is an induced illusion and we are free.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by mideast
At last , some decent western human being. I think you are near extinction.

You come here onto a site run by Westerners ... that comes out of the West ... and is occupied mostly by Westerners ... and you think nearly all of us are not decent human beings?

Next time someone posts that most Muslims are 'not decent' (or something like that) .. you can't complain about it

Could I ? Really ?

I don't believe that.

I know that this site is run by westerners , but I am not sure if their intentions are decent.

I have experienced for over a year that being decent and fair is not doing much.

Being angry and harsh is the instruction for the ATS. (Except few members)

reply to post by babloyi


Hi , salaam and peace to you.

Your replies have shed light for those who have a healthy heart.

But I see few stars on your replies.

And that is a message.

Whatever your intention is , remember that.

And remember that we are dust in the wind against latest attempts against Islam and Muslims like what we were in 9/11.

But I never lose hope to help these people know Islam better.

Many members here are far apart from fundamental concepts like being fair or unbiased. The least we can do is to help them see events through just eyes.

The very best example of how unfair they think is the 9/11. Which they attack and invaded a country for unclear reasons of unclear events.

These people like war in other countries , but not in their countries and they don't care whatever the cost they pummel other nations under their boots.

They have major major unfair and unjust point of view problem.