How does Blood save?

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Aide from Paul outlining the mystery, were would we be trying to figure it out? Lost, that's where

Fortunately I wouldn't group myself in that particular "We"... I have not needed a single line from his books...

What does it mean: "Blood, sweat and tears"

Self Sacrifice... Not sacrificing others

Especially not sacrificing the innocent as a means of remitting sin...

It seems to me there is only one answer to this question... as I suspected all along...

reply to post by abeverage

If one god was seen and the other was unseen or unseeable what is the truth? If there as a God that was fire and brimstone and destruction that demanded sacrifice and another of Love and light which is it? I DO NOT believe they can be both!

The Son of God is our Creator, it was him on Mt. Sinai with Moses. He and the God of the OT are the one and the same. He is the one who made Adam, and it was he who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and a few other cities. People always make the assumption that Father and Son are two different Gods because they are unaware of who he really is. During Christ's ministries he demonstrated that he has mercy on whom he will, just as it is written of God in the OT. He whipped the money changers and kicked over their tables, and he damned the pharisees by speaking in parables so that they could not turn to him and be healed and recieve salvation. When he spat in the dirt and mixed the mud into the blind man's eyes in John 9, with his actions he was declaring that he was the one who spat in the dirt and molded Adam from the mud. When he walked on the Sea of Galilee, and calmed the storm he proclaimed himself as spoken in Proverbs 30:4 and Daniel 12:5-6. You folks are getting things wrong because you do not know the scripture and you do not understand the allegorical. All those prophecies in the OT are of him, and he had to fulfill them. Then you make the mistake of listening to people like Akragon, when he doesn't know half as much as he thinks he does.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Oh please...

You turn Jesus into a liar and a maniac...

The God of the OT wasn't Jesus... Not even close...

You and your "torah made flesh" theory is even more off the wall then any of my theories

at least my theory about the OT God makes logical sense... your theory is just ridiculous



Good to see you're the same old lonewolf....

reply to post by Akragon


I had the same question until I understood the value of blood

Peace to you

The most precious blood of Jesus Christ covers us and this is its mystery

Genesis begins with creation,
and moves forward to the creation of man.

Of that man there came a woman,
and by that woman, children of the two parents.

The most infamous of the children were Cain and Abel,
the two to whom their story was written.

In this story the brother of Abel, Cain,
harbors jealousy for his brother and murders him.

Abel's blood, being spread on the ground bare, cries out to God,
for love, for justice, for mercy, and compassion.

But most importantly,
the desire and cry of his blood is to return.

Jesus' Blood resembles the blood of that story.
Jesus being Abel,
Judas; Cain.

In crying out to Jesus with fervent sincerity,
We become washed of sin,
and covered with that Holy Blood.

This is the same Blood,
Which cries at the foot of Father's throne,
to Return.

And thus we return with It,
Longing for the Home from which we hail,
and the comfort of the Father,
Whom we love.

Last night as I lay in my bed I began to think incredulously at the vampire like thought of Christ's Blood.
I was judging from a very worldly perspective and questioning my life and my ego.

And then something happened in my interior contemplation. It could not be understood by you unless you have felt it.

I can only describe it as this: God smiled at me a smile of pity, reminding me of my humanity, and in less than an instant taught me and made me understand this mystery. The same mystery which I wrote down excitedly and have now shared with you.

reply to post by backcase


While I don't agree with you... its good to see your thoughts on the matter...

I see nothing more then a blood thirsty, jealous, maniacal tyrant, hell bent on the destruction of anyone or anything that gets in his way...

Sacrificing a lamb because it is pleasant to this so called lord is nonsense... and its even worse when this god wanted the blood of the son of God who did nothing but tell the truth

Jesus said the people who were the givers of the law, the professionals on the torah were the children of the devil...

And that's exactly what the OT God is... a Fallen angel that deceived the world into believing he was the true Father of creation...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by backcase

 

I see nothing more then a blood thirsty, jealous, maniacal tyrant, hell bent on the destruction of anyone or anything that gets in his way...

Sacrificing a lamb because it is pleasant to this so called lord is nonsense... and its even worse when this god wanted the blood of the son of God who did nothing but tell the truth

You see what you want to see, not what is.
you project the spirit which thrives in you and it is that of falsehood.

reply to post by backcase


Nope... There is no hate or jealousy in me...

I do not kill... I won't even harm another living creature...

I don't lie... I tell it like I see it... and theres no point because the truth is much more fun...

You shouldn't assume... because you only make an ASS out of U... Not ME

reply to post by Akragon


If you go to John 4, Jesus meets the woman of Samaria in verse 7. Jesus told her about living water that leads to eternal life. She asks for some. What was Jesus reply to her? "Go, call your husband, and come here." She said that she did not have a husband. He then reveals what he already knew about her. She was a harlot with multiple men, the latest was not a marriage. Why did Jesus answer her this way, with a question?

John 2

9 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.[d] 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

---Why is the passage here regarding the temple located in the same context of believing in Jesus name? Why did Jesus not entrust himself to the people yet? I would suggest to you the same reason he did not give the woman living waters. The people are not prepared yet and 3 days (3000 years) had not passed. The living water Jesus is speaking of is the holy spirit. Why was the woman unable to receive it at this time? The same reason from John 2. Jesus knew the heart and until the beast (Selfishness) has been overcome, the next state cannot take place.

The sacrifice is Christ alone. Only HIS sacrifice could bring the blood to the mercy seat, both on Earth and in Heaven. Remember, Paul reveals (Hebrews 9) that it was necessary for the copies of "heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."

How can you possibly leave Paul out of this? You should do a thread with your top reasons you do not believe what Paul says. List them out by comparison to what Jesus says.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Remember, Paul reveals (Hebrews 9) that it was necessary for the copies of "heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."

Ugh... I Cringe when I read Paul.. or pseudo paul for that matter...

This isn't getting at the root of the question... How does blood purify anything?

One could take it as symbolic... but that isn't what they did back then it was literal... Killing goats and calves, sprinkling the blood of the animal on the ground then burning the body was ritually done in that time... Just to please this blood thirsty God...

And why would I need paul to know of sacrifices better then killing the innocent and spilling their blood?


28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

To love God, an love your Neighbour as yourself is a sacrifice... Sacrifice of the self to others... putting others needs over your own... Which is better then any burn offering or sacrifice...

Christ's sacrifice was coming here to help us in the first place...

And I could pick apart Hebrews 9 but i'd be here all night, and that isn't the point of this thread...

How can you possibly leave Paul out of this? You should do a thread with your top reasons you do not believe what Paul says. List them out by comparison to what Jesus says.

I have considered making a thread on my issues with paul, but they all seem to come out eventually anyways... plus theres already far to many threads to beating on Paul as it is...

Its easy to leave Paul out of this... he's the only issue in the equation...

reply to post by Akragon

To love God, an love your Neighbour as yourself is a sacrifice... Sacrifice of the self to others... putting others needs over your own... Which is better then any burn offering or sacrifice...

Christ's sacrifice was coming here to help us in the first place...

You have missed the point, yet you say it above with clarity. What is the animal nature of man? What is the temple? THE BODY. What is to be sacrificed? The animal. Draw a comparison and you know what the blood is for.

2 Timothy 3

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

The beast is 6+6+6 described above. There are 18 identifiers with the animal nature. Why were they bringing the animals to the altar to be burned? It was symbolic of the sacrifice of the outer beast for the inner spirit. What did Paul say on this? Right after Hebrews 9, where he says Christ sacrificed once for all, he then tells us salvation comes when he appears a second time. Move on to Hebrews 10:

10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”

Who is it that said, "Here I am?" You must remember. The LORD is the Son of God, equal with God. He is a Son being raised in the wilderness. Like a body with many nerve endings, the mass of humanity is from one soul.

8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

---Here is where the blood comes in and baptism is seen by its purpose.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

Remember the progression:

Amni - River of life
Amnio - Bowl that catches the blood
Amnesia - Forgetfulness in the waters
Amnesty - Forgiveness

The verse above outline Amnesty.

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

What is sin? In Hebrew, it is a beak in the chain. Considering DNA, death is a breakdown in the chains of amino acids producing and renewing the body. Literally, sin is the nature that causes the decay and entropy. What is the blood of Christ? Unity in the chains of life. We are set free by our inheritance. When we are no longer children of God, we receive the inheritance.

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

---WHAT DAY? The day of the Lord. The last 1000 years of the week. We are the ones that usher this in. 7 years of tribulation first. The body of Christ must be crucified (Church).

reply to post by EnochWasRight

First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law.

So what you're saying is Moses had no clue what he was talking about?

Over and over the sacrifices were "pleasing to the lord"... Then Psalms blows the idea that this god loves the bloody sacrifices and burnt offerings right out the door...

You don't find it a little strange that Moses was worshiping this God of death... and also coincidentally had no issue will killing his own followers after they made the golden calf? And had no issue with exterminating women and children of a different tribe when this so called god said it should be done?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law.

So what you're saying is Moses had no clue what he was talking about?

Over and over the sacrifices were "pleasing to the lord"... Then Psalms blows the idea that this god loves the bloody sacrifices and burnt offerings right out the door...

You don't find it a little strange that Moses was worshiping this God of death... and also coincidentally had no issue will killing his own followers after they made the golden calf? And had no issue with exterminating women and children of a different tribe when this so called god said it should be done?

Again, the entire Bible must be considered by context and not just parts. The entire story leads up to the coming wrath on the wicked, the same wrath demonstrated by God on the ungodly of the OT. In each instance, God acted on behalf of goodness and mercy, but punished sin and idol worship. You must be born again leads from Adam to the end of the day of the Lord. Keep it in mind that we are baptized into the waters and death is that open doorway.

At the end of my last post, I mentioned that the body of Christ (Church) would be sacrificed in the coming wrath. Note that the Father of mankind (Son of God / Adam) made us the body of Christ today. God sent the Son to be sacrificed. The Church willing enters into the name that makes us the body of Christ, fully knowing that we will face great danger and persecution in the end. What did God do for Abraham when asked to sacrifice HIS Son? God asked for the sacrifice on the altar, then stopped it at the last minute.

Luke 21

Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Notice that we pray to escape. Notice in Revelation 3 that there are two different parts of the body mentioned as two different churches.

Revelation 3

7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

---This church has an open door that no one can shut. He will keep this church from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the Earth.

Notice the next church:

14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

---You many not like that God punishes sin and expects our total surrender, but this is what it takes to see that love covers a multitude of sin. Human understanding holds life in a high regard for the temporal time that we are here. God does the same, but he realizes our time is not merely limited to one life. He alone knows the path that each of us take to find the truth. Remember, truth is Aleph, Mem Tav. To be marked by the end with the cross, we must endure it.

For those who don't know, Aleph is beginning and Tav is end. Tav is the Hebrew letter that is two crossed sticks. Mem is water and represents the Jordan river dividing Earth and Heaven. It is our involution (Baptism) into the waters of life to repent (Evolution) and rise to new life.

What is the blood? When God says he will write on our hearts, how can he do this? Word. The tree of life is DNA and at our essence, we are woven together by the Word of God. Being written into the Lamb's book of life means an upgrade to our Word (DNA).

The blood of Christ is applied to our new Robe (body). You must be born again.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law.

So what you're saying is Moses had no clue what he was talking about?

Over and over the sacrifices were "pleasing to the lord"... Then Psalms blows the idea that this god loves the bloody sacrifices and burnt offerings right out the door...

You don't find it a little strange that Moses was worshiping this God of death... and also coincidentally had no issue will killing his own followers after they made the golden calf? And had no issue with exterminating women and children of a different tribe when this so called god said it should be done?

I've told you before, there is more to Moses than you realize. Again, baptism is the key to the whole thing. Without Paul, this would remain a mystery.

Hidden Mystery of Moses - Running the Race and getting to the Tav (Omega / END).

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by abeverage

 

If one god was seen and the other was unseen or unseeable what is the truth? If there as a God that was fire and brimstone and destruction that demanded sacrifice and another of Love and light which is it? I DO NOT believe they can be both!

The Son of God is our Creator, it was him on Mt. Sinai with Moses. He and the God of the OT are the one and the same. He is the one who made Adam, and it was he who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and a few other cities. People always make the assumption that Father and Son are two different Gods because they are unaware of who he really is. During Christ's ministries he demonstrated that he has mercy on whom he will, just as it is written of God in the OT. He whipped the money changers and kicked over their tables, and he damned the pharisees by speaking in parables so that they could not turn to him and be healed and recieve salvation. When he spat in the dirt and mixed the mud into the blind man's eyes in John 9, with his actions he was declaring that he was the one who spat in the dirt and molded Adam from the mud. When he walked on the Sea of Galilee, and calmed the storm he proclaimed himself as spoken in Proverbs 30:4 and Daniel 12:5-6. You folks are getting things wrong because you do not know the scripture and you do not understand the allegorical. All those prophecies in the OT are of him, and he had to fulfill them. Then you make the mistake of listening to people like Akragon, when he doesn't know half as much as he thinks he does.

There is one scripture that led me to be a Follower of Christ but not a Christian, because of the Christian ties to the Jews. This one scripture led me to the true nature of GOD and the difference of Jesus being the son not of the OT god and possibly the god of Muslims but of the One True GOD. And led me to find the Truth in the Gospel and disregard the contradictions of the OT (which are numerous, yet not in the NT) This does not make the prophesies any less potent or Jesus not a savior by throwing it out. I don't need it to justify my belief in Christ and know this is the One True GOD.

If you read and know anything more than just the Bible this distinction becomes apparent as the Abrahamic religions both Islam and Judaism believe in lex talionis or And Eye for an Eye. Yet Jesus spoke a different...very different message.


One little thing spoken by Jesus sets you straight, One scripture that shows you the truth...
Matthew 5:38–39
You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also Turn the other cheek...does sound much like an eye for an eye at all or a contradiction of a loving god.

If true Christians left the Talmud or OT behind and embraced Jesus why would we have war? Look at how the Jews treat the Palestinians after all they were put through in the Holocaust and there is the truth about that god.

Please do not quote me more scripture I am tired of trying to be converted by Christians who do not walk with or know Jesus and the true Father. Stick to that quote first...ponder it and reconcile it then we can talk. Do not try to quip with me about Jesus and disregarding laws of Deuteronomy either because if you do, you are hypocrite.

It really doesn't matter to me as we both think Jesus is the light and the Truth. Jesus said to love your neighbor and so I do, I just choose to not deal with hypocrisy and the Double Think used by Modern Religious Institutions to control the masses with fear and cognitive dissonance.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Again, the entire Bible must be considered by context and not just parts. The entire story leads up to the coming wrath on the wicked, the same wrath demonstrated by God on the ungodly of the OT. In each instance, God acted on behalf of goodness and mercy, but punished sin and idol worship.

What is good and merciful about killing children?

Where is the mercy and forgiveness in those revelation quotes?

And what kind of loving god uses threats to gain followers?

And we're kinda straying off topic...

I've told you before, there is more to Moses than you realize. Again, baptism is the key to the whole thing. Without Paul, this would remain a mystery.

I disagree... Paul didn't know Jesus...

Anything that was needed was already given before Paul came on the scene...

Will you receive a new body and mind when you die? Can you develop a new body and mind from the work you do here in this life?

From your thread...

Jesus said this as well... and its obvious if one isn't attached to the "Christian" theme of being "born again"...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Again, the entire Bible must be considered by context and not just parts. The entire story leads up to the coming wrath on the wicked, the same wrath demonstrated by God on the ungodly of the OT. In each instance, God acted on behalf of goodness and mercy, but punished sin and idol worship.

What is good and merciful about killing children?

Where is the mercy and forgiveness in those revelation quotes?

And what kind of loving god uses threats to gain followers?

And we're kinda straying off topic...

I've told you before, there is more to Moses than you realize. Again, baptism is the key to the whole thing. Without Paul, this would remain a mystery.

I disagree... Paul didn't know Jesus...

Anything that was needed was already given before Paul came on the scene...

Will you receive a new body and mind when you die? Can you develop a new body and mind from the work you do here in this life?

From your thread...

Jesus said this as well... and its obvious if one isn't attached to the "Christian" theme of being "born again"...

It was Jesus who said you must be born again in John 3, as applied to John baptizing into the kingdom for the purpose of repentance and escaping the coming wrath. Are you picking and choosing the words of Jesus as well. I have a hard time following your reasoning. The OT is out with you. Paul and Revelation are out. Just to be clear, what part do you believe in?

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Any way you read it, the same story emerges. There are some who are considered wicked and chaff. The wheat is kept and planted again. The chaff are burned. Water and soil allow the wheat to rise again. What part of these parables are you struggling with? Death is a doorway. Some will have that doorway closed on them. We do not know what came before. Judging others is not our job. We are the witness.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

The OT is out with you. Paul and Revelation are out. Just to be clear, what part do you believe in?

The only part that is needed...

I thought you knew that...

Any way you read it, the same story emerges. There are some who are considered wicked and chaff. The wheat is kept and planted again. The chaff are burned. Water and soil allow the wheat to rise again. What part of these parables are you struggling with? Death is a doorway. Some will have that doorway closed on them. We do not know what came before. Judging others is not our job. We are the witness.

Why do you believe I disagree with you?

All that came before him were thieves and robbers... that's a pretty blatant statement don't you think?

I am free to judge the writer of a book if I disagree with his theology... and OT is just that... outdated, messed up people who didn't have a clue as to who God is...

So I don't waste my time considering the OT to be anything more then a good story at most....

Not that im saying you're wasting your time... I love your replies...