How does Blood save?

Originally posted by abeverage
This makes me believe the god of the OT is not the same GOD as the NT and that OT god is one of demands, anger and sacrifices if a animal is not available a human will do! I think that Christians have in some part left this god behind by following Jesus but should have severed the link completely.

edit on 30-5-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)

We Have a Winner!!

Taking stuff out of context helps alot .

The blood covers over your sin, making it as if it never happened. When Father sees Christ's blood, he doesn't see you and his judgement is averted. This is played out at the very first Passover in Egypt.

The references to Matthew about "i desire mercy and not sacrifice", is referring to the pharisees. The pharisees were placing ceremonial laws above moral law. Hence in Matthew 12:1-8 Christ's discourse with the pharisees about David stealing the bread from the table of showbread which was not lawful for him to do, yet he was not guilty? Why wasn't David guilty? The reason he wasn't guilty is because that was a ceremonial law. Same thing when Christ's disciples were picking the heads off the grain on sabbath. It was not lawful for them to even so much as pick up a stick, yet they were not guilty? Moral law superceded ceremonial law.

This is why we needed the new covenant: because no one knew then, or knows now how to keep the old covenant flawlessly in all the ways it should be observed, it just cannot be done. A flawed humanity cannot keep a perfect law. God is the only one who can keep his own laws and that is the entire theme of the OT and what he was trying to teach them long ago. We can't keep the Law, to fail in even one point, was enough to condemn you. So we have to put on Christ's blood, so he doesn't see us but he sees only Christ. You put on Christ and everything he did is attributed to you, and the person you once were ceases to exist. This is how the Body of Christ came to be.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Thank you for being civil for once...

So again you get the same question as the others...

Why does this God need blood?

Why does he require the death of a man, or an animal?

The main reason is communication. dna smoke signals so to speak. The flesh is temporary and we are here to grow spiritually through the flesh. The flesh was created by an eternal being with a goal of eternal life through a spiritual growth process. Jesus was not sent by his father to die for you. He choose to out of love for us in order to send a message to his father.

reply to post by Akragon


Why He does things the way He does is not something we can understand. But, we do know that life starts after we leave our bodies. Tests & trials we have to endure so we can become one with Him.

Some cultures in South Africa will for instance clean the blood of a passed beloved where the person died. Satanists will drink the blood of animals and in some cases human blood, where God forbids that.

We do not eat meat when it is lying in its blood, we cook it. (Well, some do)

He came in flesh, but left in Spirit. So shall we. We are in flesh now, and we are under temptation 24/7. We need to be more spiritual and can only do this in faith.

As long as people ask questions, there is some belief

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by abeverage
This makes me believe the god of the OT is not the same GOD as the NT and that OT god is one of demands, anger and sacrifices if a animal is not available a human will do! I think that Christians have in some part left this god behind by following Jesus but should have severed the link completely.

edit on 30-5-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)

We Have a Winner!!

I would not say that. I just have a hard time reconciling the god of the Jews and Muslims vs. The Teachings and beliefs of Jesus the Christ!

reply to post by Akragon

Why would "we" need his blood?

I don't know, maybe you personally don't, and just think if you do what Jesus says then everything will turn out good.
It could be that we have no idea of what the mindset of the hardcore Jews was during the time of the temple, and how much convincing they required.

As in... why is the blood of anything required by this god?

Jesus decided it was, and apparently God agreed.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Jesus decided it was, and apparently God agreed.

Which passage says that?

Originally posted by abeverage
This makes me believe the god of the OT is not the same GOD as the NT and that OT god is one of demands, anger and sacrifices if a animal is not available a human will do! I think that Christians have in some part left this god behind by following Jesus but should have severed the link completely.

edit on 30-5-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)

Wrong, he is the same God. Jesus even tells you that it was him on Mt. Sinai and Horeb, people just do not know what they are looking at and don't stop to think about what he is saying. It is written all throughout the OT that God cannot be seen, yet many times he was seen. So how can he not be seen by men, yet he was indeed seen by men?

John 1:18

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

So who was it talking to Abraham in Genesis 18 the day Abraham tried to intercede for Sodom and Gomorrah? Who was standing before Joshua when the Israelites were battling the canaanites in Joshua 5 when Joshua took off his sandals and worshipped him? Who visited Manoah and his wife in Judges 13 and accepted the burnt offering before he ascended back to heaven? Who stood with Moses on Mt. Sinai in Exodus 32? If God cannot be seen how did these people see him?

Lets see what Jesus had to say about it.

John 5:37-47

37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

So Jesus said the scriptures were about him. At the time he said this the only scriptures in existence were the old testament scriptures. He said Moses wrote about him. Moses wrote about God, the Savior exclusively. Moses also wrote the book of Exodus, in which chapter 32 he saw God.

And now we come to who and what Jesus the Son of God is. The Son of God, is the manifestation of the Father's Glory in the corporeal. His Light made flesh. You cannot see the Father, you can only see the Son because the Son is the "image" of the Father, kind of like seeing your own shadow on a sunny day. This is how in John 1:18 the Son declares the Father. Where the Son is, so too is the Father and this is played out in the symbolism between the Presence of God and the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark being the Vessel, the Throne bearing the Presence of God.

It's a fact Jesus accepted worship and did not forbid it, for a kosher jew this would be idolatry and blasphemy if it were a lie that he was claiming to be God.


Keep in mind the jews wanted to stone him to death, for committing blasphemy, in which he was claiming to be I AM (God).

John 8:48-59

48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Abraham lived 2000 years before Jesus.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I am curious will it matter if I have chosen to accept that Jesus is my savior? Semantics can be argued through and through (and have) just as we are doing here. Eat fish, don't eat fish, eat bacon, don't eat bacon. Believe in the god of the OT or believe in the GOD that Jesus came from.

If one god was seen and the other was unseen or unseeable what is the truth? If there as a God that was fire and brimstone and destruction that demanded sacrifice and another of Love and light which is it? I DO NOT believe they can be both!

And ultimately what does it matter if you accept Christ? We could argue and fight scripture to scripture makes no difference in the end with a book (albeit divinely inspired) but still written, controlled and edited by men who also interpret 2,000 year old language for their own means. I agree Jesus was mentioned in the OT of that there is no doubt. But I also think there is another...god...not the Father and not the GOD of Jesus...

After reading the bible (several times) there is a dichotomy between the OT and the NT and that is not just the split of before Christ and After it is of what message that was stated before and what was changed after that even a child could see. Personally to me it is enough of a rift it is as different a religion as being a Muslim the Christians just want to keep those ties were as Islam as all but broken them...

But if pressed I believe the god of the Jews is the god of Muslims (think an eye for an eye and you will see it) they don't and never will so they will continue the BLOODSHED... But this is not who Jesus was talking about but could not say it too bluntly because he would have been crucified long before he got that message out...

reply to post by Akragon


Paul preached the true message and there is no contradiction between the sacrifice, Jesus as the Lamb and what Christ now does for us as the priest. Define the symbols.

The temple is your body.

The sacrifice was being here in the waters of life for the refinement process.

Atonement comes from the blood because we are locked in the dual nature of animal and divine. We are to sacrifice the beast (Animal nature / selfishness) by being immersed into it first. The point is to overcome. Involution (Baptism) is the process for us to do this.

Tree of Life is DNA.

The Blood contains the life (Tree of Life).

Before we can have a body which does not decay, we must sacrifice the animal.

God desires mercy above sacrifice. The point to be gained from the OT is that we are incapable of doing this ourselves. God already has. We must submit to his authority first, then he brings us into the eternal kingdom and saves us from baptism by cleansing the temple with water (immersion into life in the material world). The NT was a demonstration of what it takes to complete the process. Only Christ could do this. It may be the case that we must do this as well over the next 1000 years when we have the same Holy Spirit that Christ had.

Why was Satan given reign over us here on Earth? Why were we placed here (billions of individuals from one soul)? What is the purpose of being involved with a Shepherd (The on that leads the sheep)? What ultimate goal does God have in mind for Satan and why must we be here to see it happen?

Those questions are not impossible to answer. Judgment does not necessarily imply that God is angry with us. Judgment could also be positive. There is no boasting in heaven? Why? Because we did not overcome. Christ did. His sermon on the mount and telling us that we must sell all and give it away was a demonstration of the cup that must be carried to overcome the law of sin and death (renewal). Only one man can do that job and Paul knew the gospel was for this purpose. Nothing Paul states is out of character with what Christ preached. In all points, Paul was showing the difference between three individuals. Christ, God and mankind.

Paul was charged with the shepherding of the Gentiles. Christ came for Israel. To show Israel the way, the King of kings had to die so that Israel was free from the marriage. By doing this, Christ was able to then betroth himself to another. Israel has the opportunity now to be included in that wedding. Why? Because Israel played a harlot. To release the union, God had to come as the messiah and die, therefore releasing the union temporarily. The new bride is the church and Israel will be included in that marriage by the end.

Again, we do not know this other than Paul's insight into the matter. It was revealed to him by Christ and his knowledge of the law of God allowed him to see the completion of the story. Still, it's locked in the mystery of Christ if we dig deep enough. The entire Bible speaks of one unified story from beginning to end.

Adam (Beginning) to Abraham is the age of the Father.

Issac to Jesus (Last Adam) is the age of the Son.

Jesus and Elijah baptizes humanity into the waters (First resurrection) culminating in the Day of the Lord when the Church reigns with Christ 1000 years.

The last Age is the Age of the Holy Spirit (1000 years).

Salvation comes when Christ comes in bodily form a second time. What is the blood in this process? Upgraded DNA.

reply to post by Akragon


With that said, why does God desire mercy and how will this happen? Christ already died for us. Therefore, we are not to suffer the wrath of God. When Abraham was asked to sacrifice the son Issac, was a substitute found for the sacrifice. Who receives mercy?

Who will the scapegoat be in the last days when the Church floats away in the ARK of water baptism? What stone (Petros / Peter) will be rolled away to reveal the empty tomb (Earth)? Who rests on the solid foundation of Petra (Cornerstone)?

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Love your explanations as always my friend...

but I did not ask why God wants mercy....

Why does this God want blood?

Why does this God desire the blood of his son?

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Akragon

 

With that said, why does God desire mercy and how will this happen? Christ already died for us. Therefore, we are not to suffer the wrath of God. When Abraham was asked to sacrifice the son Issac, was a substitute found for the sacrifice. Who receives mercy?

Who will the scapegoat be in the last days when the Church floats away in the ARK of water baptism? What stone (Petros / Peter) will be rolled away to reveal the empty tomb (Earth)? Who rests on the solid foundation of Petra (Cornerstone)?

edit on 30-5-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

And here is where you and most "Christians" confuse me...WHAT WRATH? Why wrath? Why suffer? WHAT HAVE I DONE?

See, I am not some ignorant fool nor do I believe am wise. I have however (with divine help of course) created to. I am a father. I have no Wrath for my child. NONE! Why would I? I have LOVE for my child. Now I may get angry or disappointed but Wrath? Wrath is fury, violent vindictive, deeply resentful indignation, divine chastisement!

So god has Wrath for his creations because they were created like god? Again let me throw out the logic that my Creator endowed me with so I can believe this OT nonsense. People who justify this OT gods anger of drowning his own creations (to name one incident) just so they can link Jesus to the prophecies written about in the OT miss the point.

I have no Wrath prepared for my child I am a guide to them and someone who brings Love. Discipline is not wrath.

reply to post by Akragon

Which passage says that?

A lot of places.
If a seed dies,
If I be lifted up,
For what purpose did I come,

all that sort of thing demonstrates that Jesus was making
evaluations and decisions on his course of action.
I can't make a full-blown dissertation on the subject
on a moment's notice. That is what impression I get
That there was no set plan and he had to make his own plans
as things progressed.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

Which passage says that?

A lot of places.
If a seed dies,
If I be lifted up,
For what purpose did I come,

all that sort of thing demonstrates that Jesus was making
evaluations and decisions on his course of action.
I can't make a full-blown dissertation on the subject
on a moment's notice. That is what impression I get
That there was no set plan and he had to make his own plans
as things progressed.

edit on 30-5-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

I can't say I agree with that...

I am more of the opinion that he always knew he was to die... It wasn't God (or at least his Father) that wanted his blood... it was the jews and their god...

I picture Jesus before his incarnation saying... They are lost... and they need help, so I will go and help them...

And Father replying... You know if you go they will kill you... and it won't be an easy death...

And he still came... knowing that his words can save those that would hear him...

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Leviticus 17:11-12

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

Originally posted by Deetermined
Leviticus 17:11-12

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

Someone already used that quote...

The blood is part of the physical... And the spirit is life... which is not part of the physical...

reply to post by Akragon


The spirit is life, but the blood is what keeps the flesh alive. The flesh must die.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

The spirit is life, but the blood is what keeps the flesh alive. The flesh must die.

So back to the original question...

Why does this god require man to take life... To take his sons life... to spill such a precious thing...

Why does this God demand blood?