How does Blood save?

Originally posted by KaelemJames
reply to post by Akragon

 

I turn my back on questions i ask myself, those which i cannot understand.

edit on 09/02/2012 by KaelemJames because: grammar

some light can never be seen

reply to post by Akragon

I am more of the opinion that he always knew he was to die... It wasn't God (or at least his Father) that wanted his blood... it was the jews and their god...

Jesus died so that he could kill the Messiah. That's right folks Jesus killed the Messiah.

This is how it happened:

Because Jesus was the Son of the Father,
and had the Word of Life in him,
He was Lord Commander over nature and the spirit realm.
People could see this and think he was the Messiah.

The Messiah of post-Hasmonean dreams was a mighty warrior king,
who would take the throne of David,
overthrow the Romans,
bring the whole World into subjection
to the Son of David
on behalf of the tribal deity Yahweh.

Those were the prophecies,
That's Old Testament Zionism.

Jesus knew that that was madness and destruction.
So he devised a plan,
He assumed the Messiahship,
warned people to not follow any future Messiah
and took Messiahship to the cross (or stake, whatever the case may be)

Whether he rose physically or not,
he appeared alive later to certain people
and told them to proclaim him to be the Messiah.

Later, closer to the great rebellion with new Messiahs
he got someone to write the Gospel of Matthew
with enough proof texts from the prophets to make
it at least a little credible that he fulfilled the prophecies,
and was now sitting on the throne in heaven (whether there is a throne or not is not relevant)

The point being that people were supposed to forget
about any prophecy fulfillment to come,
forget about Messianic Zionism
because the better kingdom of Heaven version
does not require for a tribe and it's clan god to rule the World

The World is ruled from heaven, by the Christ of God.

-----------------------------------------------------------
The plan seemed to work okay,
until Darby came along and wrecked it
by claiming "No, the prophecies of a physical rulership must still happen,
the Kingdom of Heaven is nothing
we want the Earth kingdom.

So here we are again, as it was in the days of Jesus.
His plan is ruined unless we all reject Dispensationalism.
so won't you please dispose of Dispensationalism?

Do it for the children.

------------------------------
As the music is playing, ushers will be coming down the aisles with trash cans,
just pull out your hankering after Earthly World domination,
just pull it out and toss it in the trash.

reply to post by pthena

The plan seemed to work okay,
until Darby came along and wrecked it
by claiming "No, the prophecies of a physical rulership must still happen,
the Kingdom of Heaven is nothing
we want the Earth kingdom.

I don't know what to do with this...

Are you talking about the parables?

the ways of "the earth kingdom" are wicked according to him...

reply to post by Akragon

I don't know what to do with this...

That's under the wrecking of the plan.
I thought that the dotted line would be a less than subtle transition mark.
The dispensationalists reject that the prophecies have been fulfilled and demand that all the physical Unitary Military Absolute Monarchy stuff happen physically.

Darby is John Nelson Darby

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Akragon

I don't know what to do with this...

That's under the wrecking of the plan.
I thought that the dotted line would be a less than subtle transition mark.
The dispensationalists reject that the prophecies have been fulfilled and demand that all the physical Unitary Military Absolute Monarchy stuff happen physically.

edit on 31-5-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

So what do you believe his plan was if he died to kill the Messiah?

Darby is John Nelson Darby

No Idea who that is... im sure I've heard of him here at some point...

reply to post by Akragon

His plan was to end Messiahism. I guess that doesn't quite get rid of Yahweh though, does it? Maybe tomorrow.

Darby: Inventor of Dispensationalism:
Short tutorial: according to Dispensationalism
The gross temple worship(idolatry, by the way, man made stone with a deity in it) and physical earthly kingdom and the god of OT is "the real deal"

The Christian Church is just a temporary fluke, it will go away, so "the real deal" can happen for OT deity.
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Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Akragon

His plan was to end Messiahism. I guess that doesn't quite get rid of Yahweh though, does it? Maybe tomorrow.

Darby: Inventor of Dispensationalism:
Short tutorial: according to Dispensationalism
The gross temple worship(idolatry, by the way, man made stone with a deity in it) and physical earthly kingdom and the god of OT is "the real deal"

The Christian Church is just a temporary fluke, it will go away, so "the real deal" can happen for OT deity.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

edit on 31-5-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-5-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

Didn't he claim to be the Christ?

I don't think anything can get rid of YHWH... its dualistic but its really one or the other,,,

SO that means you believe OT God will take over as the real deal?

That's three replies in one...

I should go to bed...........

reply to post by Akragon

Didn't he claim to be the Christ?

I don't think anything can get rid of YHWH... its dualistic but its really one or the other,,,

SO that means you believe OT God will take over as the real deal?

Yes he is, OT dude is taking over. Ever hear of Zionism? State of Israel?
I think you've been so busy beating up Paul, that you've missed the real point.
They don't need Paul. They have the whole Old Testament

reply to post by pthena

Jesus died so that he could kill the Messiah.

I ran into an interesting verse yesterday while looking up verb forms for my reading the Bible in Greek blog.

Romans 15:8 • γεγενῆσθαι • For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed

That was my blog entry. The verb form is very peculiar and this particular example (in the Greek spelling, above) occurs only once in the New Testament. Also notice there is no period, so the sentence continues into the next verse.
The verb, that means to become, is in the perfect tense, passive voice, infinitive mood.

So the point is, I think that Paul is doing the same thing, killing expectations by saying that whatever rightly should have been taken from those things, already happened.

reply to post by pthena

. . . The gross temple worship(idolatry, by the way, man made stone with a deity in it) . . .

Is that what Daniel was talking about, with the stone that was not cut with human hands, that smashes the "kingdom"?

reply to post by jmdewey60

I ran into an interesting verse yesterday while looking up verb forms for my reading the Bible in Greek blog.

Romans 15:8 • γεγενῆσθαι • For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed

I ran into that verse yesterday too. That's when I suddenly decided that I was done defending Paul.

So the point is, I think that Paul is doing the same thing, killing expectations by saying that whatever rightly should have been taken from those things, already happened.

Two edged sword there. Nothing to stop people from claiming that Jesus is enslaved to the Old Testament agenda thanks to the last few chapters of Romans.

Has it ever occurred to you that the Old Testament would have just disappeared long ago if Christianity hadn't latched onto it as if it were their book? That Judaism would have been about as popular in the World as the Samaritan religion (about 300 people), but for Christianity propping it up?

New Theory: Why did Jesus die?

He practiced what he preached, didn't resist evil.
When the ultimate evil confronted him, it killed him.

"It pleased Yahweh to crush him and cause him to suffer" Isaiah 53:10

And then Yahweh sleazes up to people and says,
"Look, I killed this man for you. He was the Son of God!
Come and worship me as your only g.d. Me and Me alone"

So the Christians accept this sacrifice for sins from the hand of Yahweh the slayer, and they can't for the life of them explain why. Must have to do with the Old Testament.

reply to post by jmdewey60

If Paul says "saves us from the wrath to come", then he is using Passover imagery.
What wrath? From the old entity that we don't have to worry about anymore, who is going to smite us for not following the dictates of Moses.

Lev 26
13 I am Yahweh your God, who brought you forth out of the land of Egypt
14 “‘But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; 15 ... but break my covenant;
16 I also will do this to you:
I will appoint terror over you,
17 I will set my face against you
18 I will chastise you seven times more for your sins.
21 I will bring seven times more plagues on you according to your sins.
24 I will strike you, even I, seven times for your sins.
25 I will bring a sword upon you, that will execute the vengeance of the covenant
28 I will walk contrary to you in wrath; and I also will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons, and you will eat the flesh of your daughters.
33 I will scatter you among the nations,
I will draw out the sword after you

All this wrath is against the "Out of Egypt" Covenanters.

So why should Gentiles care one bit for the clan god or the covenant?

Does the "sin sacrifice" trick them into putting themselves under this wrath?
Sounds like a vicious circle that is best avoided by refusing the sacrifice.

So if Jesus died to save anybody from the wrath of Yahweh, it would have been for those under that wrath, so that they could sever all ties to that wrathful Yahweh and his covenant.

Gentiles have zero business with that at all. None! Zip! Zero! Matthew 15: 24 "“I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”"

Why only the lost sheep of Israel?

Zechariah 13
7 “Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
and against the man who is close to me,” says Yahweh of Armies.

“Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered;
and I will turn my hand against the little ones.

Because the sheep are the ones that Yahweh is hell bent upon killing.

reply to post by pthena


Come on! Jesus quoted Yahweh. Jesus said his father was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The reasons Christians hold on to the Old Testament is because Jesus said that we would not die until all of the scriptures in the Old Testament concerning him had been fulfilled.

Jesus quoted over 60+ scriptures from 24 different books of the Old Testament!

reply to post by Deetermined

Jesus said his father was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Is that a quote, or an interpretation?

Jesus said that we would not die until all of the scriptures in the Old Testament concerning him had been fulfilled.

What?

Jesus quoted over 60+ scriptures from 24 different books of the Old Testament!

And I've quoted OT more than Jesus did.

To quote your earlier statement:

Jesus said he came to sacrifice himself for his sheep.

See my post above this one I'm answering.

Do you believe that Jesus died so that you can now worship his murderer?

reply to post by pthena


Matthew 22:29-32

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Luke 24:44

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

John 10:11-15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

reply to post by abeverage


Islam did not come from Abraham, it is an offshoot of the heretic Arius' teaching. Abraham didn't walk around the kaaba 7 times for remission of sins, neither did he place the Blackstone muslims worship. He in fact never even went to Mecca. He never went any further south than Memphis of ancient Egypt. Allah is the Destroyer. Christians and jews are the same people, the split occurred 2000 years ago and was prophecied of in Zechariah 11:14, this break between Israel and Judah came after the prohecy if Christ's betrayal by Judas for 30 pieces of silver spoken of in Zechariah 11:12-13. The northern kingdom of Israel had been assimilated by the gentiles during the subsequent exiles, and Jesus was sent to find them and bring them back into the fold, for which he spoke Matthew 15:24 and is why the majority of his sermons and ministry took place in the northern kingdom.

You are under a mighty deception if you think that Christ is not the same God as the OT. You think you know him but you do not. The feast days proclaim him, the prophecies proclaim him, Moses proclaimed him and Abraham did too. He blinded the jews so that he would be lifted up as foretold. Allah is not even the same god as christians and jews because Allah has no sons or companions (Sarat al-Isra 17:111, Surat Yunus 10:68). Our God has a Son and companion (Proverbs 30:4, Zechariah 13:7, Matt 3:16-17, John 3:16).

Do you want to know why God stopped appearing as Fire with a loud voice? Because he scared the Israelites and they asked him to stop because he was scaring them to death, so he took on a more pleasing form. Ask and you shall recieve. He gave them exactly what they asked for, he stopped appearing in a guise that scared them to death and gave them a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15-22) to be his Voice in his name.

For which we say:

"Baruch Habah b'Shem Adonai Yeshua ha'Neseret"
"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, Jesus of Nazareth" (Matthew 23:37-39)

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

John 5:37-47
37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

Exodus 19: 9 Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, I come to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.”
11 ... Yahweh will come down in the sight of all the people on Mount Sinai.
17 Moses led the people out of the camp to meet God;
20 Yahweh came down on Mount Sinai,
20: 1 God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
18 All the people perceived the thunderings, the lightnings, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking. When the people saw it, they trembled, and stayed at a distance. 19 They said to Moses, “Speak with us yourself, and we will listen; but don’t let God speak with us, lest we die.”

I would conclude then that Jesus was making it quite clear that this Yahweh character is not the Father.

reply to post by pthena


God in the Old Testament came to many in the form of a cloud, a burning bush, and spoke through the Angel of the Lord. The only person who's seen God in his true form is Jesus.

reply to post by Deetermined

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

There are a few possibilities here.

1) If the Jews had never heard God the Father(as mentioned in a quote from John in this thread), then the god who spoke the claim was not God the Father.
2) Perhaps Jesus was a polytheist like me.
3) If Jesus is a monotheist as people claim, and Jesus is claiming that the god who spoke to Moses was the only god, then I disagree with Jesus.

reply to post by pthena


3) Jesus did say that the God who spoke to Moses was the one TRUE God.

The other gods were fallen entities posing as something they were not.