Jihadi Motivation (Disturbing Essay Episode 3) Come On In, It's Short.

Dear ATSers,

This essay is by Dennis Prager and asks a question I had not considered, that's why it makes the Disturbing Essay series.

He begins by wondering if there is any truth to the idea that recent Islamic attacks in England and elsewhere, are caused by Westerners who are killing Muslims. After all, goes the claim, Westerners are killing Muslims, why shouldn't Muslims kill Westerners? If the West would stop, then violent Jihad would stop.

Let's go to his question:

First, the U.K. and others are in Afghanistan in order to defend Muslims. Brits and other Westerners are risking their lives, and dying, in that country on behalf of Muslims.

Here's a question for Muslims and leftists who buy this argument about the West killing Muslims in Afghanistan: Who are we fighting in Afghanistan?

I thought the Brits and Americans were fighting the Taliban, the people who throw acid in Muslim girls' faces for attending school, the people who murder nurses who inoculate Muslim children against disease. Now, if fighting the Taliban is to be equated with fighting Muslims, this is a real contradiction of everything much of the Islamic world and virtually all of the left have been contending for years -- that the Taliban represent a tiny group of extremists in the Muslim world, and that they have so completely perverted Islam that they cannot even be called Muslims.

Well, you can't have it both ways. If killing the Taliban is the same as "killing Muslims," then you can't argue that the Taliban don't represent Islam or Muslims.

So, on the issue of the West fighting in Afghanistan, the Muslims and the left need to make up their minds: Is killing the Taliban a service or a disservice to Muslims? This is the first and last question both groups need to answer. Everything else is commentary.

I don't see any way around his argument. (Perhaps you can supply one?) So I'm forced to accept his conclusion:

There is something of great significance to be learned from this. In the Muslim world today, it is hatred of the West, not love of -- or even concern for -- fellow Muslims, that animates Muslim atrocities and terror against the West.

townhall.com...

If that is indeed the case, that hatred of the West is the motivator, then pulling out of Afghanistan, the entire Middle-East, or even the world, will not stop Islamic Jihadi attacks. Perhaps the only solution is crushing force, but I'm wide open for another, realistic solution.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952
I sadly must agree with your conclusion that it is indeed hatred of the West that is at play. Maybe if no one from the UK or US had ever set foot on Middle Eastern soil would have made a difference- but I seriously doubt it. More than anything I believe it all goes back to the re-creation of the Israeli homeland and our support of it, and even if we pulled all support and alliance out from under Israel this very day it would not make a bit of difference because the hatred is ingrained in them now and I'm afraid will be forever.

Understand the meme and you will understand the human behavior. Islam is the current alpha-meme of planet Earth. No other meme will cause people to snuff out their own genetic line to service the orthodoxy. Literally, a zealot would load the whole family in the car to get a suicide bomb through a checkpoint. There's nothing like it on Earth.

It will grow to destroy all other religions or it will be "reformed". There is no in between. Reformation must happen from within the meme as it did for the Catholics. The Catholics were vicious killers before the reformation. It wasn't that long ago.

reply to post by littled16

Dear littled16,

I'm sorry for such a depressing, sad thread. I feel it also. Peace and acceptance seems so far away sometimes. (I wish there was a "smiley" for tears.)

The only thing I see as a possibility is the chance that Islamic leaders throughout the world would unite and say "Stop it, this is nuts. Besides we're killing more of our own people with these internal rivalries than the West is. Let's tolerate their existence for a decade or two, then we can re-evaluate. Until then Islam condemns your violence and our Islamic governments will hunt you down and stop you."

At that point the US would say (I hope), "OK, it's your problem and you've shown a willingness to deal with it. We're out of here. By the way, let's make some trade deals and learn to live with each other."

I can hope, can't I?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952
You are certainly allowed to hope Charles, as are we all. I'm just afraid that it has gone too far for there to be a turning back now. Some of the younger Jihadist probably don't even know exactly WHY they hate the West, only that it has been ingrained in them from birth to do so. I honestly believed if we were to pull every single Westerner out of the Middle East never to return and completely stopped any and all involvement in the region it would change nothing. It is easier to require a "boogey man" to blame for our problems rather than accept responsibility for our own actions- unfortunately that is true of all people.

As someone who has fought and killed Muslims for the past 12+ years. I honestly have no idea why we have been conducting these wars.

At first we thought we were bringing to justice those who were responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks. Namely Al Qaeda and their Taliban sympathizers. But after years of that, it was kind of hard to buy into it any more. Especially since Bin Laden was allegedly killed in Pakistan.

When we went into Iraq it seemed acceptable for the 1st year or so on the premise that we had removed Saddam. Arguably in everyone's best interest. The second year, we could still tell ourselves we would at least get cheap gas out of the deal.

Sadly it became obvious that we had no business in Iraq at all, and the violence would continue with or without our presence.

Meanwhile Afghanistan became an even bigger goat rope. And it slowly became clear that our policies of intervention and regime change in the middle east over the past 60 or so years had accomplished little more than several thousand dead Americans with nothing to show for it.

So, where does all that leave us?
With no end in sight of the killing on both sides.

Originally posted by littled16
reply to post by charles1952

 

I sadly must agree with your conclusion that it is indeed hatred of the West that is at play. Maybe if no one from the UK or US had ever set foot on Middle Eastern soil would have made a difference- but I seriously doubt it. More than anything I believe it all goes back to the re-creation of the Israeli homeland and our support of it, and even if we pulled all support and alliance out from under Israel this very day it would not make a bit of difference because the hatred is ingrained in them now and I'm afraid will be forever.

Justified hatred in the west. Swooped in, gave Israel to the jews, even though we had no right.
Keep bombing and fighting the middle-east since the crusades. Probably before even...
Our western banks suck Poor nations dry. By borrowing their corrupt leaders money in exchange for rights to their natural resources + the countrys poor population is doomed to repay what depth may be left.
If i could nuke every bloody arrogant person in the world, who has never stopped up and philosophied for a extended period of time. Id do it in a heartbeat.
We are swimming in idiots and non-thinkers in the western world... Us who have all possibilities. Access to endless knowledge. Yet we spend our time drinking, watching bad tv, eating unhealthy food. Steadily the world is becoming more and more like Idiocrazy. (The movie).

"Any community that gets its Laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they're in good company"

-René Descartes

Please allow me reply. As I come with nothing but respect and peace. However, I am a Muslim, I pray 5 times a day, give to charity, learn about my God, and always treat others with respect (These are just some of the behaviors traits preached in the Quran). I understand it must be really easy to just say "well they just hate us because we are free" or "They hate the west for some unknown reason, but a deep hatred it is".. for one reason or another you believe that it is the Muslims hating on the West. Well I'm sorry to say, but just like everything else in this world, this ideology is completely reversed. Its upside down, completely backwards. The Muslims, now only hate the west because of the invasion of the middle east by the west. then again who wouldn't? especially if the invaders destroyed your entire life, raped your wives and murdered your children. Even after all this, the Muslims as a whole do not want death to the west. This religion is about peace, even in the Quran it lays out Rules of War or LOAC in todays definition. This goes as far as to say even if Muslims were to invade another country, Do not destroy the trees the bloom fruits or destroy the enemies lively hood. The Muslims in the middle east just want to be left alone, however the west (along with Israel) is invading and killing as many Muslims as they can. The "interests" in the Middle East is causing poppet Governments to sprout created by the same people who are invading these countries today. Why do these people kill themselves in suicide? are they crazy? is their Hatred really that severe that they would Kill themselves, directly dis-obey the very doctrine they strive to defend and adhere to? The doctrine which they use to guide every step of their life? Well.. what would you do? A hopeless people they are, their lives are nothing like yours is in the west.Its hard to get water, they are being killed by Qatari and Saudi personnel Paid for by the USA and Israel. And after a man watches his only son die infront of his eyes will suicide be placed on the table as a form of last ditch effort of revenge..or do anything.. SOMETHING to get his mind at ease because without your wife, your sons and daughters..well then there is nothing left for a Father to live for.

reply to post by watchitburn

Dear watchitburn,

As someone who has never seen combat, (I got in in '73 and apparently wasn't needed in Viet Nam) I can have no idea of your experiences. They must have been terrible and confusing. It's good to have an "on the ground" opinion.

What do you think of the Author's opinion that Jihadist attacks now are being fueled by hatred for the West and are not a response to the war in Afghanistan?

With respect,
Charles1952

We could try pulling out of places like afghanistan to see if a difference is made.
Whatever the odds we dont know until we try.

Changing the behaviour of muslims and the left wing is going to be impossible.
Muslims are muslims first, it is what their faith commands. Turning against their
own brothers will be difficult. Faith is powerful.

And the left are just completely batsh**t. They have turned into modern day fascists.
Only a strong right wing will counter them and make an impact.

How incredilbly disheartening.

reply to post by charles1952


I understand the position of the Muslims, freedom fighters, or whatever name they wish to give to themselves. If put in their shoes I would do the exact same thing.

I don't hate them.

But they are the chosen foe of my Countrymen, so I fight them.

reply to post by NeoMuslim

Thankyou for taking the time to post dialog is helpful.

So if tomorrow all western forces were to go home and all interference in muslim affairs ceased
(this would include helping muslims in places like syria and past conflicts like bosnia of course)
Any anti-west movement within islam would cease to exist?
Would muslims acknowledge israels right to exist ?
Would muslims live side by side in peace with non muslims ?

reply to post by charles1952

If the West would stop, then violent Jihad would stop.

What a lark, he must have never read Quran or Sharia Law.

reply to post by watchitburn

As someone who has fought and killed Muslims for the past 12+ years. I honestly have no idea why we have been conducting these wars.

Thats an easy one to answer. If theyre focusing on our troops over there, they are less likely to focus on our citizens here. Good 'ol bait and switch. They will keep throwing their suicide happy asses at our boys over there and we'll keep letting them, because once they focus on taking over the world, there won't be any stopping them because western nations are too stupid to close their borders and mass deport them. They want to finish the job Charles Martel disrupted them from.

It is so sad that we, collectively, can not even accept the fact that all of mankind is family through Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam. It is even more tragic that we have forgotten the unity of existence.

Many Muslims around the world feel attacked because all of the "collateral damage", "friendly fire", civilian casualties, security checkpoints, searches, and home raids in the Levant, Palestine, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

Bombs and wars may be used to eliminate enemies, but a toddler just got killed from the shrapnel.

Even as a non-Muslim it is absolutely heart-breaking to see the photographs and videos of the innocent children killed.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by charles1952

 

If the West would stop, then violent Jihad would stop.

What a lark, he must have never read Quran or Sharia Law.

The Qur'an details jihad (war) in the view of a formal standing army under the direct leadership of a caliph / khalifah.

Modern Islamic guerrilla jihad is a fairly new occurrence, which has a direct link to the creation of the modern State of Israel, the dissolution of the Balkans, the indepence movements of former Soviet Islamic societies, and the wars in the Levant, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

Modern Islamic jihadis use the above as their case of grievance.



As a personal aside, I share the opinion that kgnowing the divine within one's self and kgnowing the divine within all others is the only way to end all of his suffering. Love, compassion, and altruism based upon the kgnowledge of One is our greatest chance for peace and happiness for all of mankind.

reply to post by LordDerpingtonSmythe


Ah Well that is a little far-fetched. As you see, it is much like a school playground. If you bully up on someone for a period of time, beat him a few times a day for several weeks (This of course pales in comparison to the amount of children killed by United States/Israeli bombing in the region) and then leave the kid a lone. Well.. do you think the kid would be happy you left? sure! But the mental scare is too deep now, his hatred for you is only going to get worse. Is it the kids' fault if he finally has some power (like a gun) and begins to shoot up the school starting with the bullies? He will kill the bullies for beating him so badly, and then the students in the school for just standing there and watching when he was getting beat. This is common in the American way of shooting up schools left and right (granted doesnt only happen in America) but as you can see you can find the answers right here at home. America is not immune to the same mental instability if the situation was lets say in Bulter, NJ or Galveston, TX..This Mental Damage is very difficult to over come, even with the power of the Quran. God will not place blame on these people because they no longer have the power to think clearly. Just as those of us mentally disabled and not capable of making rational decisions (Mentally Challenged). These people have suffered here on earth for their time in Heaven. And God willing, they will be granted access, even if they do wrong.

As far as Israel and its' right to "exist". Israel is a Jewish state formed after the invasion of Palestine. Was this invasion of good intention? No of course not, other wise they wouldn't just kill off Palestinians or force them into camps. What you do not realize is that there was a relatively large population of Jews living in Palestine, there was even a Jewish Political Party in Palestine! However they are greedy, greedy for land, money and power. Soon you will find them to be the strongest enemy of the entire world to date. They will bring destruction where ever they go. If you don't believe me, then look at the federal reserve. What a nice private entity it is, controlled by a Jewish Family (Along with every bank in the world).

I have no idea why we are in Afghanistan or Iraq ...... it's a completely pointless exercise, except for the companies that are making money from the operation.

As for suicide Moslims .... well even Tony Blair's wife, Sherie Blair admitted that she could understand why they (Palestinians) would become suicide bombers given the way Israel treated them. She's an intelligent woman.

I think there is a hell of a lot of payback due.

Originally posted by NeoMuslim
reply to post by LordDerpingtonSmythe

 

Ah Well that is a little far-fetched. As you see, it is much like a school playground. If you bully up on someone for a period of time, beat him a few times a day for several weeks (This of course pales in comparison to the amount of children killed by United States/Israeli bombing in the region) and then leave the kid a lone. Well.. do you think the kid would be happy you left? sure! But the mental scare is too deep now, his hatred for you is only going to get worse. Is it the kids' fault if he finally has some power (like a gun) and begins to shoot up the school starting with the bullies? He will kill the bullies for beating him so badly, and then the students in the school for just standing there and watching when he was getting beat. This is common in the American way of shooting up schools left and right (granted doesnt only happen in America) but as you can see you can find the answers right here at home. America is not immune to the same mental instability if the situation was lets say in Bulter, NJ or Galveston, TX..This Mental Damage is very difficult to over come, even with the power of the Quran. God will not place blame on these people because they no longer have the power to think clearly. Just as those of us mentally disabled and not capable of making rational decisions (Mentally Challenged). These people have suffered here on earth for their time in Heaven. And God willing, they will be granted access, even if they do wrong.

As far as Israel and its' right to "exist". Israel is a Jewish state formed after the invasion of Palestine. Was this invasion of good intention? No of course not, other wise they wouldn't just kill off Palestinians or force them into camps. What you do not realize is that there was a relatively large population of Jews living in Palestine, there was even a Jewish Political Party in Palestine! However they are greedy, greedy for land, money and power. Soon you will find them to be the strongest enemy of the entire world to date. They will bring destruction where ever they go. If you don't believe me, then look at the federal reserve. What a nice private entity it is, controlled by a Jewish Family (Along with every bank in the world).

Ok, thanks for taking the time to reply .
So jews are evil and regardless of what the west does we will all be murdered anyway because
we and our children are bullies.

I dont know why I thought this would lead anywhere but disappointment.
The OP clearly states the truth.

reply to post by NeoMuslim

Dear NeoMuslim,

I know you will be getting many questions. May I ask a few more?

But, first, I want to tell you of my admiration for your devotion to your religious path. It's wonderful whenever some tries to live closer to God in peace and holiness.

Can you help explain why Muslims are attacking Coptic Christians, or conquering parts of Africa? Certainly they had nothing to do with any Mid-East invasion or violence. Why riot in Sweden, they're famously neutral in this?

I can easily understand a Father going insane with grief and a desire for revenge, but certainly that doesn't explain the attacks around the world, sometimes by young, educated, middle-class Muslims.

We've pulled out of Iraq, but attacks there are increasing. We're not in Egypt but our Embassy was attacked. If the idea is that anything involved with any Western country is a suitable target for attack, whether we've invaded or not, that looks the same as a hatred for the West.

The Muslims in the middle east just want to be left alone, however the west (along with Israel) is invading and killing as many Muslims as they can.

This sentence stopped me. I'm not sure that's what the facts indicate. If the US and Israel seriously wanted to kill as many Muslims as they possibly could, I'm not sure there would be any left by now. And if they want to be left alone, why the military expansion into Africa?

Again, I'm grateful for your contribution. Why not stick around and write some more, if you have the time?

With respect,
Charles1952