A Disturbing Essay on Islamic Scientific Development

reply to post by LABTECH767


What can I say ?

If you want the truth about Islam , dig deeper for yourself.

And

If you are just happy with all you have , stand where you are.

The choice is yours.

+ Many of the sentences come from little study and much accusations on Islam and it's prophet

reply to post by mideast


I find your conviction honorable but when it comes to who is right in today's world we are both being screwed over by big corporation's and we are like a man arguing with his reflection, we both believe in god (with some difference) and we are both faithful, I often fail my conviction's but try to live as best I can and do no harm to anybody but these two way's are not ever going to be equal by there nature but you know what I said is true though the interpretation may be different based on perspective and culture but also on religious view.

I wish you peace and wisdom.

A footnote here.

It was after the decadent decline of the Ottoman Empire that the Islamic world saw it's greatest decline as far as scientific knowledge in concerned but also following the first world war the European powers subdivided the the Islamic world between them and upon withdrawing created new kingdom's and country's to prevent the threat of another Ottoman empire whom had long raided Europe for slave's, territory and bounty, they committed terrible acts of barbarity such as www.artble.com...
though the Greeks took there revenge when they took there independence back.

In part it is this division and infighting between various sects and tribes that has also hampered near and middle east country's from keeping up with the west as well as economic disadvantage meaning they lacked a common starting point in the development race. It is more complex than just a religious question and is more to do with the entire economic social development of a country though in the west we did go through a great age of christian social reformers (Benjamin Disraeli whom was an European Jew whom converted to the Anglican church and became more english than the english rising to prime minister put it this way "The future of this great nation rest's upon the education of it's children") whom made sure the poorest received fair education and were given a chance regardless of class that many in these country's simply did not have.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Puck 22

 

Add up the results for all of the following countries:
Afghanistan
Bahrain
Egypt
Iran
Iraq
Kuwait
Pakistan
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Syria
UAE
The total is 11,046. That is not quite twice the number for Israel alone at 6,304.
The UK? 45,649
The US? 208,601
I'm sorry that I couldn't directly address Palestinian Ph.D.s, but I hope this is a little extra to chew on.
With respect,
Charles1952

Charles, take a look at the source you quoted.
Why do not you look at it this way
Iran
5228-6313 21% up
Israel
6606-6304 4% down
people may criticize the warmongering of the leaders of Israel (tribe) but they do not mean the people. our world is a big victim of radicalism and ignorance.
and you are not a member of synagogue of satan !

I am just going to be blunt and say WTF?
Middle east Muslim population is a fraction of that of the rest of the world
making up less then what 7-10%? (India and Indonesia are the largest on their own) both located in Asia

what the hell does this topic have to do with the middle east in general?

sorry had to say it

to add religion sucks and pretty much you should really be focusing on an individuals success on them selves and not what rubbish they follow.
only fool attribute or sums up success to their religion

race and country maybe since the environment has a heavy impact on their education and how they are brought up

Originally posted by bodrul
I am just going to be blunt and say WTF?
Middle east Muslim population is a fraction of that of the rest of the world
making up less then what 7-10%? (India and Indonesia are the largest on their own) both located in Asia

what the hell does this topic have to do with the middle east in general?

sorry had to say it

to add religion sucks and pretty much you should really be focusing on an individuals success on them selves and not what rubbish they follow.
only fool attribute or sums up success to their religion

race and country maybe since the environment has a heavy impact on their education and how they are brought up

So race and nation matter, religion doesn't?



Dat's some pretty loose logic......

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

So race and nation matter, religion doesn't?

Dat's some pretty loose logic......

pretty much

lets quote Einstein, one of the greatest minds there was

I came—though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents—to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positively fanatic orgy of freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived by the state through lies; it was a crushing impression.

en.wikipedia.org...

Religion in General means jack all these days and most of the prominent minds have always distanced them selves from religion as it is seen as many which holds back science

Race and culture on the other hand play a whole new chapter when it comes to ones education
and up bringing

example a child in Somalia were literacy levels is far less then say Germany (example)
you are going to get more literate people, you can have the same bright people in Somalia but they would be limited by their surroundings and what they can get in terms of an education

hence why I find it stupid to attribute religion to ones success
religion is just a political tool used to control people, one thing I have learnt that most people who use religion to justify themselves or their position are **************

reply to post by bodrul


Einstein also said:

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

But that all aside, religion is a core virtue of a society. Religion has EVERY impact on a society. And nations are build from soceities.

In nations where there is far less socioeconomic impact, religion begins to crop up as a support mechanism. If you learn to lean on your religious beliefs instead of your own wiles, you obviously will stifle your own growth.

I think this is the gist of what the OP is getting at. Islamism has embedded itself in the nations which it is in to a point that it is replacing intellectualism with medieval voodoo.

ETA: reading back through your post, it seems that you are agreeing with the OP. You just don't realize it.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by bodrul

 

But that all aside, religion is a core virtue of a society. Religion has EVERY impact on a society. And nations are build from soceities.

In nations where there is far less socioeconomic impact, religion begins to crop up as a support mechanism. If you learn to lean on your religious beliefs instead of your own wiles, you obviously will stifle your own growth.

sorry I have to disagree with you, Religion should not be a core virtue of society, if people need religion to do the right things then they are lacking any sort of moral or ethic compass.

lets use an example of a Dog who runs into traffic to save a pup or a toddler, that dog didn't do it because some religious being told it, it did it out of instinct

as I said Religion is just a political tool these days used to control how people live their lives
US, UK and so forth for example and even the Middle east and Asia

Religion dictates who someone can marry even so the religious term for marriage was used years after it was first used.

Religion is used by radicals in prominent and unstable, example Pakistan to attack schools because they dont want girls educated so they kill teachers and kids

by doing so they destroy the future of their country as they kill the future doctors, teachers, scientists and so forth

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by bodrul

 

ETA: reading back through your post, it seems that you are agreeing with the OP. You just don't realize it.

edit on 23-4-2013 by bigfatfurrytexan because: (no reason given)

actually far from it, the OP seems to go on the stroll people of the Islamic faith haven't contributed to anything in the scientific field and forth,

what most drew me to this topic was the OP attributing Muslims just to the middle east (I will be honest I didn't really read through this topic as i generally keep out of religious topics)

the Op concentrating on Muslim population and how they make up a large percentage of the 7+ billion people, failing to mention that less then 200million of these Muslims live in the middle east
with most located in third world countries with poor literacy rates

Originally posted by bodrul


sorry I have to disagree with you, Religion should not be a core virtue of society, if people need religion to do the right things then they are lacking any sort of moral or ethic compass.

I am not saying what should or should not be. I am saying what is. And religion DOES impact society to a profound degree. Whether we like it or not.

as I said Religion is just a political tool these days used to control how people live their lives
US, UK and so forth for example and even the Middle east and Asia

Religion dictates who someone can marry even so the religious term for marriage was used years after it was first used.

Religion is used by radicals in prominent and unstable, example Pakistan to attack schools because they dont want girls educated so they kill teachers and kids

by doing so they destroy the future of their country as they kill the future doctors, teachers, scientists and so forth

Damn. You just stated the OP's case for them, once again.

Now, what are you going on about again?

actually far from it, the OP seems to go on the stroll people of the Islamic faith haven't contributed to anything in the scientific field and forth,

Yes, and then the reasons why.

what most drew me to this topic was the OP attributing Muslims just to the middle east (I will be honest I didn't really read through this topic as i generally keep out of religious topics)

Then, for the love of God, please read it before commenting any more.

the Op concentrating on Muslim population and how they make up a large percentage of the 7+ billion people, failing to mention that less then 200million of these Muslims live in the middle east
with most located in third world countries with poor literacy rates

edit on 23-4-2013 by bodrul because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-4-2013 by bodrul because: (no reason given)

Yea. You need to read the topic before trying to opine on it.

By any chance, are you from a Muslim nation?

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
By any chance, are you from a Muslim nation?

England
kind of states it on the left

as i said what drew me to this topic was the the location of the topic and the first post
as mean and horrible as it is i cant really be bothered to read through 4 pages of bickering

also to add another reason I dont really want to go into this
I remember we had a smiler topic to this ages ago and I hate repeating myself

also my Opinions count even if it is from the first reply of this topic as that's what i am replying to

reply to post by charles1952


Check out this ATS thread that shows a 4th-grade Christian school science quiz, if you want to see evidence of a stupefying religion:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by bodrul



But you keep saying the same thing as the OP, you just aren't realizing it.

And you are calling the OP "mean"? It basically is saying what you are saying: the political and cultural environment is not productive to intellectual development. The OP goes on to point out that the political and cultural environment are controlled by the religious aspect of the nation(s).

I don't see what is mean about that?

Originally posted by MrInquisitive
reply to post by charles1952

 

Check out this ATS thread that shows a 4th-grade Christian school science quiz, if you want to see evidence of a stupefying religion:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That quiz seems like it is a hoax. There is just no way that 1 quiz would have every single question relating to creationist talking points while ignoring everything else.

Originally posted by charles1952

I wonder what you envision when you hope for a "fruitful relationship between Islam and west?" I am afraid that those who describe the US as "The Great Satan" may not wish for a fruitful relationship.

Regarding your above Quote Charles, perhaps some Recent History.

Who's Military is currently in Who's Country?
Indulge me another question Charles.
If there was an Invading Foreign Army in your Country, what name would you have for them?

reply to post by Tw0Sides


well, to be fair....charles is spot on with his disdain for people who decry the US as a "Great Satan". We may be larger chess pieces, but we are not the only pieces in play on the board.

But regarding your two questions.....spot on as well. If We The People wish to make it different, then we must be the catalyst for that change. This new wave of pseudoactivism (where people "do something" simply by reposting to their wall on Facebook) sure isn't going to do the trick, either.

I have few answers for how to make this happen. Only lots of observations.

reply to post by something wicked

Dear something wicked,

I'm sorry to have surprised you, I'm trying to mantain my reputation as dull and boring.

You are absolutely right. As I understand it, they send the nomination forms to goverments, scientists, and major institutions. The nominations are sent in, and the Prize Committee chooses the winner. Of course, there could be a bias, but this is the first time I've ever heard that idea floated. During the Cold War, awards went to Soviets and Americans, but perhaps the discrimination your talking about does exist. To be perfectly honest, however, I doubt it.

I doubt it because of the other Science benchmarks which don't show the Islamic countries to be as interested in science as others, and also because I believe the scientists in the rest of the world would start complaining if they saw really Prize deserving work not getting awarded.

I find your comment about Jewish people being over represented in scientific achievements strange - do you really believe that your faith is the only (or even the key) driver in your ability or willingness to achieve?

I found it strange too, but that's what the numbers were showing me. My own personal opinion, apart from the author's? I think the society you live in and are brought up in has a huge influence on your studies and your interests. In the case of Islamic countries, religion is not separate from society or culture.

ETA, having just looked on Wiki, no black person has won a Nobel award in the sciences, unless you include economics which if you did it makes a grand total of one.... what does that do to the logic of the essay you link to in the OP?

You're right, that is interesting. Also, women have only won nine.

I don't have a firm opinion of this, but perhaps it supports the essay's theory. Again, I really don't know, but consider the society or background that blacks come from. It varies from country to country, of course. Is advanced scientific education and research common there? I don't know, it's worth exploring. Could the same be true for women? I wouldn't think so, but I really don't know.

Thanks for bringing those points up.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by maes2

Dear maes2,

Thank you, you are exactly right, but you could have gone either further.

Had I looked at the change from 2008 to 2009, as you did, not only Iran, but all of the countries mentioned would be reported as going up. Israel, UK, and US, all went down.

I think the reason I didn't look at it that way was because it was only the change over one year and I suspect it fluctuates. But, whatever the reason, I'm glad to see it. I don't think that affects the conclusion that those listed countries are not publishing as many scientific articles as their numbers and resources would suggest.

and you are not a member of synagogue of satan !

Rats! I hate to be left out of things.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by bodrul

Dear bodrul,

As reluctant as I am to enter into discussion with someone who has earned the prestigious "Fighter" badge, I'll try anyway.

I am just going to be blunt and say WTF?
Middle east Muslim population is a fraction of that of the rest of the world
making up less then what 7-10%? (India and Indonesia are the largest on their own) both located in Asia

Can't argue with you for a second. That is why I listed the countries based on their science Nobel Prizes per capita. They were pretty much at the bottom. Also, while they are small, the countries of Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and the UAE have a combined population nearly 22 times that of Israel (if Wiki is to be trusted).

As for your question:

what the hell does this topic have to do with the middle east in general?

I think you answer it yourself when you say:

race and country maybe since the environment has a heavy impact on their education and how they are brought up

I believe that is exactly the author's point. The environment in the Middle-Eastern Islamic nations is not conducive to scientific advancement. He points out that Muslims who get out of those countries do better than expected.

With respect,
Charles1952

P.s. As you mentioned in another post:

as i said what drew me to this topic was the the location of the topic and the first post as mean and horrible as it is i cant really be bothered to read through 4 pages of bickering

I'm not insulted, but I am disappointed. It didn't seem to me that the OP was "mean and horrible." There have been quite a number of people posting in a very thoughtful and intelligent manner without complaining about the "mean and horrible" OP. If I were to be insulted at all, it would be for the posters. They have created one of the best threads I've seen with far less, if any, bickering. You are not being fair to them. - C -

reply to post by charles1952

Hi Charles,

My post was really to point out that making judgements based on colour or creed of the Nobel winners for science is disingenuous at best. I find it interesting that the Muslim winners listed in wiki are all in Muslim states - are they definitely Muslim, or is that an assumption based on their location? I don't actually see religion listed for each winner, and if it was, is Christian too wide a term for that faith? Are there more Catholics, more Methodists? How many are Mormon? If a winner is white, based in a western country and has not publicly stated their faith is there an assumption they are not a Muslim?

Personally all that I can see from the Nobel list is that it historically has been won typically by white western males. I'm not sure if that says more about the nomination process than anything else, but I have a suspicion it does.

Originally posted by charles1952
Dear ATSers,

Finally the author believes that Islam must expand, because only from the unconquered countries can they obtain the sufficient science and creativity to survive.

So, Islam = Borg.

Got it.