A question for people who are pro-abortion

For members that don't believe third term abortions occur, I will refer them to silo13's thread about the trial of a Philadelphia abortion doctor.

He kept a collection of aborted babies feet in a jar in his office.

Worker admits cutting 10 babies at abortion clinic... ATS Thread

Fascinating how so many people are so passionate about saving the life of an embryo/fetus, demanding that it's wrong and should be made illegal. Demanding that every fertilized egg be brought into the world.

But the minute that fetus leaves the birth canal... suddenly, nobody gives a damn about that "precious" life anymore.

I'd like to see every single anti-abortionist go out and adopt every single unwanted child living in the system... there's millions of them worldwide to choose from. There should not be a single parentless child living in the world according to the veracity of the anti-abortionists' belief system.

Time to put your money where your mouth is.

Until then, you forfeit your right to force your opinions and legislations onto the lives of others.

End of story.




How many unwanted children have you taken under your wing, OP ?

Oh, the hypocrisy of the human race in its self-appointed delusion of righteousness...

reply to post by CranialSponge

But the minute that fetus leaves the birth canal... suddenly, nobody gives a damn about that "precious" life anymore. 

You have a point, but you are using a very broad brush to paint it!

I can drive less than a mile and be on the doorstep of a Catholic Children's Home. I work with a man that adopted his two sons through a Catholic adoption agency.

Not everyone is against all forms of abortion.

If a person supports unrestricted abortion, does that mean that they have no moral responsibility to unwanted children?

reply to post by butcherguy


I don't think I'm using a broad brush to paint the picture at all.

There are literally millions of parentless children living in the system worldwide.

Let me repeat that again... MILLIONS of them.

The fact that there are so many burdening the system means that these extremist anti-abortionists (those demanding that every fertilized egg be brought into the world) are NOT putting their money where their mouth is.

So because they are not, they forfeit their right to demand legislation.

There is no grey area up for negotiation on this subject.
Millions of lives are at stake.

And millions more in the future if these dogmatic extremists were to get their way.




Again, I pose the question to the OP of this thread:

How many unwanted children have you taken under your wing ?!
Better get cracking on that friend, millions of precious lives are waiting for you to take them in.

reply to post by CranialSponge


You said... "nobody gives a damn about them".

That isn't true.

Just because some don't care, that doesn't mean that no one does.

reply to post by butcherguy


I think You get the gist of the point I was trying to make.

No need to argue semantics of my chosen words from one sentence. By doing so, you're muddying the overall context of the post.

Like it or lump it, these are the ugly facts.

The few that are bending over backwards desperately trying to take care of these children having to live in the system deserve a medal of honour, if you ask me.

But that doesn't take away the fact that our society is over-burdened with these poor kids... And meanwhile, people like the OP stand up on their soapboxes screaming at the top of their lungs enjoying their freedom of speech while at the same time enjoying their freedom of not being forced to take on the burden of their demands.

The hypocrisy of this is sickening.

Having read through the postings there are a few things that can be stated:

Do we now dictate to a person what medical proceedure they can or can not get? Think carefully, before answering, as a door that is open, would have ramifications that go beyond just this one issue and would span all of the country. You see the initial aborition debate, was never about abortion, it was about the right of privacy, the right where a woman can go and see her doctor for a medical proceedure and be protected against intrusion into what goes on in that room.

Now we go forward and the debate still rages on. One side gives the argument that life begins at conception, the other side gives right and priority to the mother to make that decision. And here is the problem, ultimately one must decide does a woman have the fundamental right to decide on what happens with her body medical wise and at what point is there a soul in the new life.

No one can really state when either intelligence or a soul is present in a person, some would say it is at conception, others would say it is later on depending on the point of view.

This question, debate has gone on for years, and every time it comes out, there are more and more developments, some for the good and some for the bad.

In this case, it turns out that embryonic stem cells have shown to have the potential to be a medical cure for some of the more horrible diseases that plauge us today, even regrow organs if need be, that can not be rejected by the recieptient.

I can not say if it is good or bad, as I am not a woman. But when I think about this issue, I do think that there is a story I once heard.

Originally posted by CranialSponge
reply to post by butcherguy

 

I think You get the gist of the point I was trying to make.

No need to argue semantics of my chosen words from one sentence. By doing so, you're muddying the overall context of the post.

Like it or lump it, these are the ugly facts.

The few that are bending over backwards desperately trying to take care of these children having to live in the system deserve a medal of honour, if you ask me.

But that doesn't take away the fact that our society is over-burdened with these poor kids... And meanwhile, people like the OP stand up on their soapboxes screaming at the top of their lungs enjoying their freedom of speech while at the same time enjoying their freedom of not being forced to take on the burden of their demands.

The hypocrisy of this is sickening.

Here is a fact that needs to be aired out regarding your idea presented: Abortion is legal, so it is a bit silly to blame the millions of unwanted children on the idea that the mothers weren't allowed to abort them.

There was a SCOTUS decision about it a long time ago.... Roe v Wade.

Put yourself as a doctor, a doctor who is there for his or her patients. You have 2 appointment scheduled, and both women are seeking your advice on having an abortion. The first woman, is young, about 18, wild looking girl. She got pregnent after going to a party, drinking too much, maybe a bit of drugs and ultimately ended up having sex. The man who got her pregnant, never told her his name, nor did he stick around. she is not wanting a child, and from your conversation, that child will be neglected, abused and unwanted. Should she get an abortion?

The second mother is an older lady, in her late 30's. She comes in to talk to you about such, as there is a medical history in her past. She has wanted a child, and the 5 prior attempts ended with miscarriage, her body has a hard time accepting a growing child. She is concerned about doing such, and ultimately is not sure if it is wise for her to have a child. From the conversation, you can tell that she wants this child, it would be a blessing, the child would be desired and wanted. Should she get an abortion?

Both women want an honest unbiased opnion, desiring to know what they should do, and you as a doctor can not state one way or the other, can give no judgement to the latter. But consider this, if you agree to both having aborition, then the world would both win and lose, as the genius of Da'vinci would never have been born, an unwanted child to an unwed mother, or suffered the horrors of Hitler, a child who was wanted by a mother who miscarried many times before.

It is not an easy choice and there are no correct answers.

reply to post by butcherguy

funny ... you chose wiki and excused it
did you find reviewing the link i provided too difficult or not part of the agenda ??

according to the medical source provided (a dr who performs them) and personal experience ... normal gestation is 38 weeks post fertilization.
men

more proof from the FFPC

FL Family Policy Council

On July 31, a bill that would have banned abortions after 20 weeks in Washington, D.C. failed to pass the House by the requisite two-thirds majority. 203 Republicans and 17 Democrats voted in favor of the ban, while 148 Democrats and 6 Republicans voted against it. The result is that in our nation’s Capital abortions can be performed at any stage of pregnancy– even 38 weeks (full term).

from prior link, previous post

The following are some of the facts of late second and third trimester terminations of pregnancy defined as greater than 24 weeks for this particular writing.

it is the only option for most women who need late term terminations of pregnancy abortions in the U.S. Restrictions make it impossible for most states to allow abortions past 16 weeks. The majority of States in the south place tremendous restrictions on abortion services.

Florida laws prevent termination of pregnancy beyond 24 weeks.
there are no hospitals in Florida that allow a termination procedure to be performed as long as a fetus still has a heartbeat.

same link + statistics
One woman dies every 7 minutes around the world due to an unsafe, illegal abortion

imho, this is the single most important statistic when we have the capability and technology to prevent it.

you inquired "are they wrong" ?
i've already stated that imho, abortion is a wrong decision, however, it isn't my decision to make.

as the other side of 'wrong' involves the legal aspects, i'll trust the dr & the written laws over wiki any day.
weeks (even 2 of them) make a difference as to the legality of any act of abortion.

if you read the 'law' vs propaganda you'll notice that very specific qualifiers are necessary for such procedures.

Guttmacher does NOT write, pass or enforce 'law'.
from your own link ...

Most recently, several states have enacted laws that ban abortion at 20 weeks’ post-fertilization

or 22wks from last menstruation (understand?)

and in verifying the 38weeks thing ... your link says ...

Accordingly, a pregnancy of normal gestational length is considered to last approximately 40 weeks from the beginning of a woman’s last menstrual period—or 38 weeks’ post-fertilization.

if you are going to link a source, you might want to read it first

You will notice that the procedure has been upheld as legal when the life or health of the mother is threatened. This is why I mentioned the life and health of the mother in my post.

at no time, in this post or last have you shown any evidence of lawful abortions performed at or after 40 weeks.
nor have you conceded that DC seems to be the only locale performing abortions beyond 24 weeks, why is that ??

I certainly agree that clean and safe is better.

good, now that we have common ground ... the question becomes, how do we reduce the need/desire for them ?

I do not oppose abortions that are done at an early stage in the pregnancy... as in when the fetus could not survive outside the womb on its own.

well, since 24 wks seems to be an industry standard, it would seem, yet again, that DC is the exception to an accepted rule -- gee, i wonder why ??

as you stated, 'late term' is 40wks or greater and you haven't shown where that ever happens, legal or not.

however, if you check the source quoted above, you'll notice that in DC, there is no limit ... even up to 38 weeks (full term)

i did answer your question.
i asked for specifics of which you have yet to provide.
i don't approve of what you described, however, i've not seen or read about a case of it happening legally in this country.
care to share what you've encounted ?

perhaps you should review stories of actual participants rather the propaganda you've quoted here. A Heartbreaking Choice

Lets let them be born to single un-employed mothers and then complain that she sucks up all the welfare. a vicious cycle of right-wing ignorance.

reply to post by butcherguy

so let me guess, from your link, this is the single (1) doctor you hold as representative of ALL abortion providers, right ?

But prosecutors believe Gosnell made plenty of money over a 30-year career using cheap, untrained staff, outdated medicines and barbaric techniques to perform abortions on desperate, low-income women.

[color=amber]And they say he made even more on the side running a "pill mill," where addicts and drug dealers could get prescriptions for potent painkillers. Authorities found $250,000 in cash under a mattress when they searched his home in 2010.

ah yes, the 'classic' poster-child of the industry
exaggerate much ?
last i checked, a criminal is still a criminal regardless his acts.

reply to post by butcherguy

wow, really ???

Here is a fact that needs to be aired out regarding your idea presented: Abortion is legal

in some places in the USA

so it is a bit silly to blame the millions of unwanted children on the idea that the mothers weren't allowed to abort them.

ah yes, those millions of unwanted/abandoned children were the result of poor decisions, again

never consider that many of them were born in places OTHER than the USA or in places where abortions are restricted, prohibited or simply unavailable.
i'd bet none of them were abandonded when their parents perished in some random bombing ... car accidents ... violence of various kinds or just premature death by disease.
nah man, NONE of that ^^^ happens, anywhere ... not even in the good'ole USA

dude really, could you use any bigger of a brush ??
worldwide --- yep, all of those women had choices ... uhuh

and btw, what weight do SCOTUS rulings have in other countries ???

Quality of life is more important than quantity of life, it would be far better that they were aborted and fed to a dog than to be born into a situation that will destroy their souls and their humanity and leave them no more a human than the dog who would have ate their aborted carcass.

reply to post by Honor93


Try this: Google search human gestation period. You will find 40 weeks listed over ans over again as average.

Ever heard 9 months mentioned? Yep, everyone says it.... but it is actually 10 months.

Your Florida family planning website doesn't make law either.. I read the whole page. They link guns and prolife movements. Love the science.

Try actually researching the law... appeals courts have upheld a womans right to choose, even during the third trimester. All linked to the health of the mother.

You are still telling me that it is illegal.
Ok, let us say that it IS ILLEGAL.

Can you quit playing games and tell me whether you think it is morally correct to snip the spine of a healthy full term fetus in order to say that you didn't deliver a baby?

That was my question.
I answered yours.
You are still playing games and 'breathing fire'.

Check this weirdness out:

Question: Why is Abortion Legal in the United States? Answer: During the 1960s and early 1970s, U.S. states began to repeal their bans on abortion. In Roe v. Wade (1973), the U.S. Supreme Court stated that abortion bans were unconstitutional in every state, legalizing abortion throughout the United States.

civil liberties

Guttmacher does NOT write, pass or enforce 'law'.

Since you read it, you noticed that I pick a paper written by a pro-choice person.
Sure, they don't write, pass or enforce law.... But I noticed that you did not deny that they are correct. Abortion bans are struck down shortly after they are passed in state legislatures... because they violate Roe v Wade in some capacity.

reply to post by James1982


I agree that abortions shouldn't be used as an extreme contraceptive method. Having an abortion simply because it was an accident to me, isn't acceptable.
I went through much of my younger life thinking that abortion is ok, and I still feel that way. I always thought if I got pregnant and I felt like I didn't want it, then I would get rid of it. When I DID get pregnant, and was shocked at how soon this pregnancy had occurred in the relationship, that would have been when I would have considered it. But I couldn't. I couldn't do it. The notion of aborting a life I had made was evil in my heart. I will never EVER condemn anyone who has had an abortion for the reason that the timing was wrong, though.

I don't think women should have to prove they were raped to get an abortion, that brings up a whole new kettle of fish that will only make me angry. But I agree that there are legitimate reasons to have one.

If you've ever seen a picture of an aborted foetus, there is no denying that it is a small human being, and it does make you wonder how people can use such a method to reset their pregnancy situation. However, again, I don't judge.
There are reasons why women can and should have an abortion, not everyone will agree, but at the end of the day, I don't feel those decisions should be discussed between anyone other than the women and the other parent.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by butcherguy

 

wow, really ???

Here is a fact that needs to be aired out regarding your idea presented: Abortion is legal

in some places in the USA

so it is a bit silly to blame the millions of unwanted children on the idea that the mothers weren't allowed to abort them.

ah yes, those millions of unwanted/abandoned children were the result of poor decisions, again

never consider that many of them were born in places OTHER than the USA or in places where abortions are restricted, prohibited or simply unavailable.
i'd bet none of them were abandonded when their parents perished in some random bombing ... car accidents ... violence of various kinds or just premature death by disease.
nah man, NONE of that ^^^ happens, anywhere ... not even in the good'ole USA

dude really, could you use any bigger of a brush ??
worldwide --- yep, all of those women had choices ... uhuh

and btw, what weight do SCOTUS rulings have in other countries ???

Cranial sponge posted the message that I replied to. Said that people pushing to ban abortion in the US should have to take caare of the millions of unwanted babies worldwide, or shut up.

Well, what is good for the goose should be good for the gander.

So, until you spend all of your time in 'the rest of the world', working to make abortion legal.... shut up about it.

And remember, I am pro-choice.
Are you trying to change my mind.... breathing fire at me all the time.

Florida Abortion Law

Regulated only in last trimester, necessary to save life or preserve health of mother and requires 2 physicians' certifications of medical necessity unless one physician certifies need for emergency medical abortion and no 2nd physician available

Health of the mother..... two physicians (EXCEPT!) when one is plenty.... like the one doing the procedure!

Validly licensed hospital, or medical facility; third trimester only in hospital

Wow, you have to do it in a medical facility..... Sounds like the definition of clean and safe to me. Yet so many people see this as an obstacle to getting an abortion.

reply to post by Honor93

The FFPC ...

does NOT write, pass or enforce 'law'.

Sound familiar? That is what you told me about Guttmacher.

Here is a little about the FFPC.....

In 2004, the organization both registered as a state not-for-profit corporation in Florida and obtained its federal 501c3 status with the IRS. In 2005, the organization began its official public launch and was formally associated with Focus on the Family out of Colorado Springs, Colorado. John Stemberger was the groups founding President and remains the organizations CEO and General Counsel to this day. For a more in depth and detailed history of the organization

FFPC

They are just a non-profit organization.
Just like a church.
Have you seen me linking to church-spew?