Why do some theists desperately try to claim a lack of faith as religion?

reply to post by salainen


I would remind you that in studies that have been done atheists knew more about religion than the religious.

You seem to claim that a lack of belief in claims ,which present no evidence, somehow requires someone to be ignorant.... which is baseless.

reply to post by salainen


It’s cool the only point I was really trying to make is to me the description of agnostic only has bearing on my certainty level on the subject of deity’s. Gnostic would mean I am 100% certain in my stance agnostic simply means I am not 100% sure.

Considering I was once an agnostic theist I think that makes more sense.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by salainen

 

I would remind you that in studies that have been done atheists knew more about religion than the religious.

You seem to claim that a lack of belief in claims ,which present no evidence, somehow requires someone to be ignorant.... which is baseless.

edit on 1-4-2013 by Wertdagf because: (no reason given)

What studies are these? I would be very surprised to find this, because I wouldn't excepect any atheist to be studying religion to any degree. I'm not saying that lack of belief is being ignorant, not at all, I just didn't think that someone who doesn't believe in gods at all would go and study religion, it just doesn't seem like a logical thing to do. Its like someone claiming that they don't believe in bigfoot, and then researching bigfoot. Personally if I don't believe in bigfoot I won't bother studying it, as I think its just a story, and therefore I know a lot less about bigfoot than those who believe in it, and have studied it intently for a long period of time.

Originally posted by salainen

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by salainen

 

I would remind you that in studies that have been done atheists knew more about religion than the religious.

You seem to claim that a lack of belief in claims ,which present no evidence, somehow requires someone to be ignorant.... which is baseless.

edit on 1-4-2013 by Wertdagf because: (no reason given)

What studies are these? I would be very surprised to find this, because I wouldn't excepect any atheist to be studying religion to any degree. I'm not saying that lack of belief is being ignorant, not at all, I just didn't think that someone who doesn't believe in gods at all would go and study religion, it just doesn't seem like a logical thing to do. Its like someone claiming that they don't believe in bigfoot, and then researching bigfoot. Personally if I don't believe in bigfoot I won't bother studying it, as I think its just a story, and therefore I know a lot less about bigfoot than those who believe in it, and have studied it intently for a long period of time.

You have a very flawed but predictable logic.
The reason non-theists do not believe in god (and bigfoot) is that a lot of them have studied religion and concluded it is false.
In fact how can you have an opinion if you HAVEN'T studied something in depth?
There's the difference in a nutshell, believers believe unquestionably and that mindset is alien to science.

I personally have studied religion for over 30 years (that's all types of religions, from its rudimentary formation to modern-day cults etc). I like to think I'm quite well read on the subject. But that's what I do, if I wish to understand something I learn as much as I possibly can and importantly, I will read everything about it, not just one side of the equation.
That leads me to have a balanced view of subjects and I can make my decision in an unbiased manner.

(If you haven't guessed by the way, I don't believe in gods)

Originally posted by salainen

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Depending on which religion you follow
The common big religion, Judeo-Christianity teaches we did start out immortal..then we ate some knowledge or whatnot and voila, God got uppity and made us mortal and will die, etc...

So, seems mortality, at least for humanity, is a eternal punishment (talk about holding a grudge)

Mortality is not an eternal punishment

Its the complete opposite. Think about it, mortal, means that you die, so its not eternal.

I mean come on, honestly, how much do you know about Judeo-Christianity or any other religion? Not much, it seems.

Of every tree of the garden surely you may eat;
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
not you shall eat from it;
in the day of your eating from it
surely you shall die". (Genesis 2:16-17)

Seems I know a hell of a lot more than you about Judeo-Christian
probably from all that catholic school and sunday classes I took, and then about 20 years of biblical debates in #apologetics (look the word up..no, its not a bunch of people saying sorry..its a religious thing).

I have watched some of your comments on this thread..all are so blindingly ignorant that it is bordering on the absurd and ultimately I imagine your probably just a troll saying nonsense simply for a rise out of people...because if you are posting your actual thoughts...well..my..you got some study to do.

The whole science vs religion debate has always been and will ever be wrong. It is like comparing apples to oranges.

Imagine the universe like a car. Science is there to determine why the wheels turn, how the engine works and what we could do to improve the car. It can never answer the question who build it or even why?

And science doesn´t even try to answer that! Scientists that I know admit that there are limitations for science, especially when it comes to the big questions like who or why.

So, if anything you could compare philosophy to religion.

I personally DO believe in god, I am NOT religious and I KNOW that science delivers correct answers.

So I do not see a belief in god and a belief in science as mutually exclusive. And I wouldn´t even say that being religious and believing in science is a contradiction.

Science and religion try to describe two different things.

Take the big bang for example. That describes the mechanics of the forming of our universe. Maybe GOD did the big bang? Who knows?

The fact remains that science has nothing directly to do with god. Science has burst a few religious bubbles over the years( earth being flat, god in the "sky", possibility of alien life etc.), maybe that is where that GOD vs. SCIENCE debate originated from.

But I do not see why a good could have created a dynamic universe like we observe it today. Why couldt god have created the big bang? Why couldn´t he create evolution?

Why he would create a static model like the bible says is beyond me anyway...

reply to post by Pardon?
What have you concluded regarding most major religions? I assume you have discovered that they are not to be taken literally? As they merely tries to describe the metaphorical relationship of man to the universe, trying to the describe what was, especially at their time, difficult to describe in words (without getting killed).

Jesus tried to assume the role of a son of god but was passed on as the son of god and thus as a separate entity belonging to the heavens. That really set the stage for the western world as man separate from the universe until his death and thus conveniently erased everything Jesus really had to say.

The Buddhist description of the godhead at play in the great drama is the one I find most fascinating. But it gives away the game which might upset some who are playing the most far out roles. You only know yourself in relation to another (they call upon your name and function with expectations of how you should act towards them) unless you actually have spent considerable time alone and discovered what you really are when no one tells you who you are.

But I guess everything is as it should be, we wanted a game with the most thrilling experience, so of course, erase knowledge of god as yourself and go play heroes and villains. The adult life difference little from the child's, we just up the stakes when it gets boring, though with paper, ink and science we have been able to make the experience safer but also more dangerous in certain aspects, as luck has it.

So I guess we went from complete harmony turned it into a complex drama with thrills of all kinds, we get a little scared and learn things to make the world safer or more harmonious again,of course everything is harmonious on the whole it just depends on the order of magnification, like a piece of cloth which to the human eye looks ordered, if we then magnify it a little it's made of chaotically arranged strands magnify it again and it there is again order and so on, a magnificent arrangement.

This may sound a bit disconcerting to some but as life is precious it was not meant to be lived vicariously but rather recklessly, like the fly which flies into the candle a goes poof a single or several human life doesn't matter to the order of the universe. But then again you can't always live recklessly as we wouldn't know what recklessness was unless there was safety, so some will by nature assume the more safe roles. But then again when you have both perspectives you are free to act as you wish, but if I understand what Buddha said correctly that is the state of desiring not to desire which is also not quite free of the shackles.

I'm sure this wasn't as well written as I'd hoped but it's my first attempt at trying to explain this in this rather direct way, not saying this is correct but it's my interpretation after examining religion in a rather casual manner, gathering info here and there and putting the pieces together as I go along.

reply to post by Konoyaro


It sounds very simplistic but religions started as a way of explaining things we didn't (and still don't) understand as you mentioned.
They've now evolved in a myriad of ways but are all a guide how to live a "good" life.

Doesn't really matter how they're dressed up and how many riddles are involved, they all boil down to the same.

What's interesting is why people take them as gospel (pardon the pun).
My take on this is our arrogance as a species.
Because of our advanced communication skills and comparitive intelligence we refuse to admit that we're no more important than the simplest life-form and ergo, there must be a higher purpose to which we are instrumental. Religion is fundamental in perpetuating this belief and using it to empower itself.
It's a vicious circle.

Originally posted by Pardon?
You have a very flawed but predictable logic.
The reason non-theists do not believe in god (and bigfoot) is that a lot of them have studied religion and concluded it is false.
In fact how can you have an opinion if you HAVEN'T studied something in depth?
There's the difference in a nutshell, believers believe unquestionably and that mindset is alien to science.

I personally have studied religion for over 30 years (that's all types of religions, from its rudimentary formation to modern-day cults etc). I like to think I'm quite well read on the subject. But that's what I do, if I wish to understand something I learn as much as I possibly can and importantly, I will read everything about it, not just one side of the equation.
That leads me to have a balanced view of subjects and I can make my decision in an unbiased manner.

(If you haven't guessed by the way, I don't believe in gods)

I know there are some like you who have studied (even extensively studied) religion and found it false. But being a younger person, most of whom I talk to never really understood religion in the first place, many were born atheist.. Not many seem to have ever studied religion, and due to believing it to be fairy tales never will.

If you were born atheist, why did you start studying religion? And how did you go about it (genuenly interested).

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Seems I know a hell of a lot more than you about Judeo-Christian
probably from all that catholic school and sunday classes I took, and then about 20 years of biblical debates in #apologetics (look the word up..no, its not a bunch of people saying sorry..its a religious thing).

I have watched some of your comments on this thread..all are so blindingly ignorant that it is bordering on the absurd and ultimately I imagine your probably just a troll saying nonsense simply for a rise out of people...because if you are posting your actual thoughts...well..my..you got some study to do.

I don't quite see what your saying there.

All I was saying in that post was that eternal and mortal are almost opposites. As in, if god punishes mankind by making man mortal, then thats obviously not an eternal punishment, as man is subsequently going to die....

And I really don't see why you quoted that part of the bible there, as you would know, you need to go deeper to get meaning out of text. If there is something important there, please elaborate.

And I do know what apologetics is, but I have never done debating in it. You would know a lot about it if you did 20 years of debating.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
I personally DO believe in god, I am NOT religious and I KNOW that science delivers correct answers.

I agree with the gist of your post but disagree completely with this statement.

Science develops models to describe how things work.

(1) There is no guarantee that there are underlying "laws" of the universe. We observe some regularities but we don't really know if these rules are universal or local and if they change over time or not.
There is no guarantee that yesterday's observations will still apply to tomorrow's world, continuity is a huge assumption (that is essential to science).

(2) There is no guarantee that our models will eventually be identical with any universal laws (if such laws exist).
Our brains are adapted to ensuring our survival in the African steppes c 200k BC.
We built crutches that enable us to work with concepts that we are extremely poorly equipped to handle (like probabilities) but there is no guarantee that we won't eventually arrive at a point where we can't progress further due to mental limitations.
Personally, I think it is rather likely that eventually our mental limitations will get into our way - just look how "weird" quantum physics is to us (who are equipped to think in clear terms of cause & effect on a macroscopic scale) for a first taste of the things to come.

Science doesn't tell us anything about truth. At best science can say "in our past observations this system always behaved as if it was governed by that mathematical law" - but observation always includes a subjective element (as an extreme: maybe the whole world exists only in your imagination?) and science can only speak of the past with confidence (of the future it has to speak with faith and in uncertain terms).

Therefore I dislike statements such as "I KNOW that science delivers correct answers".

So far science has delivered useful answers and the quality of answers has without any doubt improved.
But we have no guarantee that we will ever arrive at correct answers and if we did find a "true" law of the universe we wouldn't know it from our other models.

reply to post by salainen


Firstly, I don't think anyone is "born" an atheist or a theist.
It's something we are either taught or learn.

My parents were what you may call lapsed christians (one a catholic, one an anglican).
I attended catholic school but was never forced by either the school nor my parents to go to church etc.
My parents didn't believe in forcing their beliefs upon me, allowing me to make up my own mind and in that respect, religion was never a huge part of my life.
I became more curious about religion at around the age of 15 or 16 and it went from there. I read everything I could get my hands on as I found it fascinating and still do as the end product of religion is one of the most complex things man has ever created.
However, it really didn't take me long to deduce what I know and as yet, I've still never been able to be convinced otherwise.
Sorry.

reply to post by Grimpachi

Why do you insist that atheists have to believe in the big bang? Is this your own opinion or is it taught to you by your faith or someone else? I have seen this parroted by a great many religious people that atheists must believe in the big bang.

First, let me say, I am not against you. ok.

Second, take no offense from here on out. It's not my intent so do not take it that way. If something "bugs you", try and shake it off and not take it whole heartily.

It was a question. I was assuming that maybe an Atheist out there (the OP) would in fact believe not in a God/Gods/Creator.... and as a lover of Science (like the OP) would believe in the "Big Bang". Had we (you and I) talked prior and you said you didn't believe in Science then I would not assume you would adhere to the Big Bang at all.

The rest of your post was pointless to me because I was not talking to you.

Originally posted by Pardon?
Firstly, I don't think anyone is "born" an atheist or a theist.
It's something we are either taught or learn.

Obviously nobody is born with a particular view. But you knew what I meant anyway. Usually as a child you believe the same as your parents.

Originally posted by Pardon?
I became more curious about religion at around the age of 15 or 16 and it went from there. I read everything I could get my hands on as I found it fascinating and still do as the end product of religion is one of the most complex things man has ever created.

Fairly young still, I suppose you went in with an open mind, but since you attended a cathlolic school there was probably some motivational force from that to make you want to do some reading into religion/s. I didn't go to a catholic school, so I don't really know. Perhaps the church only funds the schools, and donesn't have much of an impact on what is taught. None the less interesting insight.

reply to post by salainen

Obviously nobody is born with a particular view. But you knew what I meant anyway. Usually as a child you believe the same as your parents.

My Dad is a Catholic, Mother a Methodist, and Biological Father a Methodist Minister, however when I was growing up they didn't practice their religion. My mother after her divorce was scorned by the preaching of my Father and what he had to say about religion. What he was taught in ministry school was very different than what he taught in church. It was a control based type of teaching that went astray from what he was taught in school. He later retired as a High School Math teacher. My mother today is Agnostic and so is my Step Dad.

My Grandmother had Bibles laying around, but they didn't practice religion. My step father wanted me to find my own way whether it involved a god or not. He would always ask me "what came first the chicken or the egg"? 'When you can answer that.... let me know", he would say.

From the time I can remember any memory, I can remember believing in something greater than myself. It was a feeling... an intense feeling that I am not alone.... ever. I could remember being excited to come here to Earth and that memory has stayed with me all of my years as well. I had intense dreams when I was younger and always was able to know what they meant for my every day life. The intuition was especially strong when I was younger.

For me, I am more of a Gnostic Mystic. Gnosticism is probably a better term but I do not label. Obviously I would be a type of Mystic because my life experiences have been mystical and esoteric ~ ALL OF MY LIFE.

Its like the feelings were so intense as a child the belief was brought to me and not the other way around. No influence I can see. I was always "different" than my parents. I saw the good in everyone (still do) and want to help all I can. My parents are not this way... at all. lol

I have experienced many deaths where on several occasions I saw light underneath or above the dying and this was my sign they were exiting the body.

Experiences in my life have shown me evidence that there is something greater and when I am on a path of clarity, it shows me even more clarification that I am on the right track with my learning.

I do not consider myself Christian, they believe differently than I. Sometimes I can't actually label my belief or see the need to because its a personal one that I do not attribute to one religion or another.... its just a belief. I have my own philosophy of life.

Science of all systems are compelling evidence for me... I feel as though I have figured out the puzzle, enough to satisfy my own thirst and or quench.

An Atheist does not bother me in the least. I do not feel sorry for them or want to change their mind as I believe in the personal experience of finding ones way in life. Each person is on a unique journey and that journey is not for me to judge. Believing in reincarnation I do not see a need for "saving" someone. We each do this our self with each and every journey we par take.

I guess my long and drawn out point (sorry lol) is that my parents and I are nothing alike. My extended family and I are nothing alike. I was not influenced by them, but of my own heart and experiences.

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by grainofsand

 

I have no problems with your lack of religion, lack of faith, lack in the belief of Gods at all.

That's nice, I equally have no problem with faith held by others.

I'm just not so sure you have a lack of faith in "anything and everything". I equate "God", or the creator with everything and anything.

I can only repeat honestly that I have no faith in the existence of such things at all. This is, as I've previously stated, because I have neither witnessed or experienced anything to draw me towards such a belief.

I believe this because of the way our bodies and the Universe (systems) are designed as a collective.

An interesting belief, but one I do not share.

If you do not believe in God/Gods/Creator then you must believe in the Big Bang?

'Must' is a very strong assumption, and incorrect.
I am aware of the 'big bang' theory of course. It is an interesting theory based on research by others where I have not been personally involved. I neither believe it or disbelieve as I have not carried out primary research and do not have enough knowledge to form a definite opinion myself.
Honestly, I don't really care how the universe was formed, it has no relevance to my existence in this time frame I'm living right now. I would personally divert research budgets to more pressing matters in the world such as sustainable energy, sanitation and clean water for all.
Regardless of my opinion about the 'big bang' theory, I certainly do not insert an unprovable entity into the discussion to fill the blanks, although I can understand the need some people may feel to do so.

What came first in the big bang? Nothing?

Who knows, science has no answers for that, and religion just replaces an honest answer of 'I don't know' with an unprovable entity to explain it all.

So... out of nothing comes all that you see?

First, to determine you lack faith, I need to ask more questions to determine if you really do not hold any faith to a singularity of causation.

The very Science you say you love and attribute your lack of belief with is lacking a great deal. Im not saying it hasn't giving us answers we can go off of. These answers lead me to a singular causation of life.

Getting back to my intents in the OP, all I'm saying is that faith in the published research of others is not the same as faith in an unprovable invisible deity, no matter how much some theists would like it to appear.
The research of others can be checked and verified, gods on the other hand can not. I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here but in most aspects of life I will trust science over religion. Put simply, if I have an infection I would prefer antibiotics to a prayer any day.

Just to put atheism (lack of a belief) in better terms, for Theists to understand:-

"Atheism Is a Religion Like Abstinence Is a Sex Position"

reply to post by MamaJ

I have experienced many deaths where on several occasions I saw light underneath or above the dying and this was my sign they were exiting the body.

I think this about sums up your mystical experiences. Interesting that such a nonsensical claim, which have no connection to Christianity in particular, is the foundation of your belief.

You know what they say about the house built upon the sand, but when your old and you've spent so much time on a particular belief realizing that it was wasted time is a hard thing to swallow.

Originally posted by NeverForget
Just to put atheism (lack of a belief) in better terms, for Theists to understand:-

"Atheism Is a Religion Like Abstinence Is a Sex Position"

Haha, nice one, that is brilliant!
Doubt some of the strong theists will agree though, especially the ones who think that not believing in something due to lack of evidence takes as much faith as believing in unprovable things.

reply to post by grainofsand


Indeed

Another one is:

"Atheism is a religion is like "Off" Is a TV Channel"

or my favourite:-

"Atheism is a Religion like bald is a hair color"

Peace

Man can not understand what God is. The idea that he is an entity is incorrect. To use the word him or her is incorrect.

Science is the study of God,s creations. (whatever God is). Science thus far is in the state of trying to understand how nature works.

Imagine dropping a supercomputer or even a smartphone off at a lost south american tribe. For many years this tribe will try to figure out what it is, then they will have to ind out how it works, then they will try to replicate it but will they ever figure out who or why it was built? The creator of the computer is no more part of the computer as god is to its creations.

This is where atheists and theists go wrong.