Why do some theists desperately try to claim a lack of faith as religion?

Man can not understand what God is. The idea that he is an entity is incorrect. To use the word him or her is incorrect.

Science is the study of God's creations. (whatever God is). Science thus far is in the state of trying to understand how nature works.

Imagine dropping a supercomputer or even a smartphone off at a lost south american tribe. For many years this tribe will try to figure out what it is, then they will have to find out how it works, then they will try to replicate it but will they ever figure out who or why it was built?

The creator of the computer is no more part of the computer as god is to its creations. Or imagine an ant in a nuclear facility, will it ever understand what he is in, how it was built, that fact that it was built and designed, then will he claim that he is a part of the facility? how long before he realizes that a man built it but that man does not know what built his surroundings.
'
Can you imagine how absurd it would be to claim that the nuclear facility or smart phone just came to be? Evolution is correct but the most world renown scientists marvel at the complexities of life and come to the conclusion that its beyond human intelligence and that a more intelligence agent than man designed and created.

This is where atheists and theists go wrong.

Why do some peoiple care what others do/say/think when it comes to religion? If another's beliefs aren't hurting you, what difference does it make? Try tolerenece instead of analysis. Or not. Your call.

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
Man can not understand what God is. The idea that he is an entity is incorrect. To use the word him or her is incorrect.

Your belief. You have no evidence to support such claims.

Science is the study of God's creations. (whatever God is).

Science is the pursuit of knowledge.

Science thus far is in the state of trying to understand how nature works.

Agreed there.

Imagine dropping a supercomputer or even a smartphone off at a lost south american tribe. For many years this tribe will try to figure out what it is, then they will have to find out how it works, then they will try to replicate it but will they ever figure out who or why it was built?

The creator of the computer is no more part of the computer as god is to its creations. Or imagine an ant in a nuclear facility, will it ever understand what he is in, how it was built, that fact that it was built and designed, then will he claim that he is a part of the facility? how long before he realizes that a man built it but that man does not know what built his surroundings.

Agreed to an extent, but how does this relate to the OP where I ask why some theists desperately try to label lack of faith as faith in itself, or some kind of religion?

This is where atheists and theists go wrong.

So which descriptive term applies to your good self, and how exactly is a lack of faith due to no evidence a situation where I as an agnostic atheist have gone wrong?

Originally posted by TownCryer
Why do some peoiple care what others do/say/think when it comes to religion? If another's beliefs aren't hurting you, what difference does it make? Try tolerenece instead of analysis. Or not. Your call.

I live in the UK where The Church of England is established legally with the state.
It's bishops have voting rights in the upper house of parliament which can influence legislation in my country. The Anglican churches in Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland are not established but it's citizens legislation can be influenced by votes from the Church of England. I do not believe in any gods yet laws which affect me can be voted in government by a religious organisation which I do not follow.

When religion gets itself out of a position of government over me in this country then I may stop poking the out of date corpse with my stick, until then it is fair game as far as I'm concerned

reply to post by grainofsand


As the writer John Wolf pointed out, any organization which actively propagandizes its world view is, indeed, a religion, whether it involves God or not.

reply to post by NaturalHealer
So John Wolf's opinion is now the definitive answer to describe a religion?
Hmm, I'm not so drawn to that way of thinking as you are, I prefer to consider the unprovable mystical entities, blind faith in invisible gods, and afterlife belief, as being the mainstay of most religions.

*Edit* Your brief quote from the guy would also seem to include political parties as well, how about campaigning charities, are they religions as well now?

reply to post by grainofsand


Atheism also requires blind faith, that all things that exist in the universe are rational and provable by scientific method, as well as the blind faith that everything that exists within the universe and all of its dimensions arose from nothing. They believe all of this without unlimited knowledge or definitive proof. Thus atheism is based upon faith; a Godless faith, but blind faith, nonetheless. Moreover, there do exist global atheistic organizations who take out billboards and bus ads in order to recruit additional "followers" of the supposed non-belief. Take the recent campaign on London city buses, which read something akin to, "You don't have to feel bad if you don't believe in God". It then lists the atheist organization name below it. Clearly this is an attempt to spread a worldview message, to recruit similar thought in others, to assuage general guilt, which are all facets of organized religion. Mysticism has little to do with organized religion.

The John Wolf reference was for expediency of point. I do not often agree with him, but I can still admire an intellect for its construction.

Originally posted by NaturalHealer
reply to post by grainofsand

 

Atheism also requires blind faith, that all things that exist in the universe are rational and provable by scientific method, as well as the blind faith that everything that exists within the universe and all of its dimensions arose from nothing.

No, that is incorrect. Atheism is the simple lack of belief in deities. No faith required, just a lack of evidence to draw me towards belief in such things. I do not necessarily support or deny the theory of the big bang (note, theory) because I have not carried out primary research into the theory myself. I do not however, fill in the blanks by saying 'an unprovable entity did it all' I remain honest and say I don't know but won't believe the ancient stories of others without any evidence.

They believe all of this without unlimited knowledge or definitive proof. Thus atheism is based upon faith; a Godless faith, but blind faith, nonetheless.

Nope, incorrect assertion again. I do not believe in pixies or elves either but it does not require any faith for that. The simple lack of evidence means I would be foolish to state I believe in such things, equally the same for gods. No faith required, just a reasoning mind which requires some evidence at least to be drawn towards a particular position.

The John Wolf reference was for expediency of point. I do not often agree with him, but I can still admire an intellect for its construction.

I can admire any questioning mind, but if Wolf's thin definition of religion were true then campaigning charities, political parties and trade unions would also fall under the banner of religion, how silly would that sound. I note you haven't addressed that question though?

reply to post by grainofsand

i like the term "world view", it's all encompassing.

no human is above being biased, shallow, or committing immoral acts; and i think it's odd when people try and separate them into blame categories. "that was foolish evolutionists, not me" "that was religious crazies, not me" "those were atheist nuts, not me".

you have faith that your world view is correct, as i have faith that mine is correct. you're probably thinking "but i'm not religious", well i think god hates religion and any world view that seeks to do harm.

reply to post by grainofsand


To clarify, and correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to be stating that not only do you not believe in God, you have NO beliefs about the universe in general. In other words, if something has not yet been proved beyond doubt, which, in reality, nothing has, you refuse to believe anything about that topic? The world around you is just one, enormous question and, yet, you somehow know, without a shadow of doubt, that God does not exist. THIS is the one thing of which you are certain.

And I was not avoiding your question. I do think that political parties are religions, if only because they so frequently and intimately tie themselves to recognized religions to such an extent that they become indistinguishable. If charities do likewise, then they are simply extensions of an existing faith. As for trade unions, the reality is that they serve best those who are running the show (again like organized religion).

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
you have faith that your world view is correct, as i have faith that mine is correct.

My position in life is based on reason, not faith. I am open to change as evidence presents itself. As long as there is zero evidence to support claims of gods I shall continue not to believe in such things.
Again, no faith required, just a questioning mind to weigh the balance of probabilities.

you're probably thinking "but i'm not religious", well i think god hates religion and any world view that seeks to do harm.

The Abrahamic God as mentioned in the old testament carried out many acts of needless harm. If this 'god' was proven to exist I would raise such genocide and murder with said entity, regardless of it's wrath, it would lose a debate about morals.

Regardless, your idea of 'faith' in the minds of atheists is nothing like the blind faith of a theist, no matter how much you may wish it to be. My assertions from the OP still stand in my opinion.

Originally posted by NaturalHealer
reply to post by grainofsand

 

To clarify, and correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to be stating that not only do you not believe in God, you have NO beliefs about the universe in general. In other words, if something has not yet been proved beyond doubt, which, in reality, nothing has, you refuse to believe anything about that topic?

Pretty much yep, if there is no evidence from experience or factually gained knowledge then any thoughts I have about the universe remain just that, unsubstantiated thoughts. I do not insert 'unprovable invisible entity' to fill the blanks in my knowledge though.

The world around you is just one, enormous question and, yet, you somehow know, without a shadow of doubt, that God does not exist. THIS is the one thing of which you are certain.

Have you ignored the OP or subsequent posts I've made where I have clearly stated that I do not believe in any gods but I equally do not assert there are none? To assert there are none would be a position of faith. As someone who avoids such unproven claims I remain honest and state that I do not believe due to lack of evidence.
I would be grateful if you read this carefully and take the time to understand the difference between not believing something which has no evidence to support it, and claiming that something does not exist. Check back to the OP if you like, I made it clear there.

And I was not avoiding your question. I do think that political parties are religions, if only because they so frequently and intimately tie themselves to recognized religions to such an extent that they become indistinguishable. If charities do likewise, then they are simply extensions of an existing faith. As for trade unions, the reality is that they serve best those who are running the show (again like organized religion).

Then your definition of religion is one I do not ascribe to. Religion usually involves blind faith in entities which have no proof to back them up. A campaigning charity for the betterment of humankind is not a religion, and such assertions are, to me, as silly as stating lack of belief in gods is a religion.

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
you have faith that your world view is correct, as i have faith that mine is correct.

My position in life is based on reason, not faith. I am open to change as evidence presents itself. As long as there is zero evidence to support claims of gods I shall continue not to believe in such things.
Again, no faith required, just a questioning mind to weigh the balance of probabilities.

you're probably thinking "but i'm not religious", well i think god hates religion and any world view that seeks to do harm.

The Abrahamic God as mentioned in the old testament carried out many acts of needless harm. If this 'god' was proven to exist I would raise such genocide and murder with said entity, regardless of it's wrath, it would lose a debate about morals.

Regardless, your idea of 'faith' in the minds of atheists is nothing like the blind faith of a theist, no matter how much you may wish it to be. My assertions from the OP still stand in my opinion.

GOS you really do keep banging on about this - knowing you are Welsh were the other positions taken and you had to settle for being the only atheist in the village and you still have a complex about it?

You continue to provide your own definitions (or cherry pick them), but why? You want everyone to say how right you are?

For what it's worth, at least on ATS I would say to many Atheism is becoming like a cult (and I know what the word means, copying and pasting from an online dictionary really isn't going to make you look clever). I say this as in my mind being an atheist doesn't mean you share any views with another atheist - in the same way as someone who doesn't like, let's say one direction, would have any logical reason to reach out to other one direction non-fans.

I hate to break this to you, but you being an atheist is a big deal (it seems) to you, and just you - why do you keep trying to make a big deal about it although your threads almost always end up as attacks on the faiths of others.

reply to post by grainofsand


Grainofsand I do appreciate you starting this thread. The question you have asked is one I have asked in other threads which not one person would answer. I see you are finding this problematic as well. The reason until now I have only guessed at their reasoning for holding such a position and have always leaned toward that they had done so knowingly from a position of fallacy however after reading thus far into the thread it certainly seems that most honestly do not understand the definitions of the terms they are using. I have posted the graph once already of agnostic atheist, gnostic atheist and so forth I am sure you have seen how many did not want to accept them.

Some people really believe that there is more to the definition of atheisms than not believing in deity’s throw in another defining term like agnostic and their brains seem to overload. There are a few here that have responded that I have come to highly respect intellectually and still do even more so now that I understand why they hold such a position. Until now I was a bit bitter towards those who tried to attribute more to the definitions of my non-belief I had viewed it as a sort of attack but now I see it is because they have been misled at some point and I should be patient when correcting them. Someone somewhere gave them bad information on the subject and they took their word for it which I shouldn’t have been surprised about considering everything. Everyone makes mistakes and no one is immune.

I am sure that there are some who do so intentionally but the majority of those who have responded to your thread from a theist perspective do not know the correct definitions. The possibility that this was the case had occurred to me in the past but I had always thought they would be the minority not the majority and I am amazed. So thanks for the thread it has really opened my eyes to the problem.

To reiterate I am glad you asked this question I think many have wondered the same thing getting a straight answer from most has proven to be a daunting task.

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
you have faith that your world view is correct, as i have faith that mine is correct.

My position in life is based on reason, not faith. I am open to change as evidence presents itself. As long as there is zero evidence to support claims of gods I shall continue not to believe in such things.
Again, no faith required, just a questioning mind to weigh the balance of probabilities.

you're probably thinking "but i'm not religious", well i think god hates religion and any world view that seeks to do harm.

The Abrahamic God as mentioned in the old testament carried out many acts of needless harm. If this 'god' was proven to exist I would raise such genocide and murder with said entity, regardless of it's wrath, it would lose a debate about morals.

Regardless, your idea of 'faith' in the minds of atheists is nothing like the blind faith of a theist, no matter how much you may wish it to be. My assertions from the OP still stand in my opinion.

GOS you really do keep banging on about this - knowing you are Welsh were the other positions taken and you had to settle for being the only atheist in the village and you still have a complex about it?

Interesting and mildy amusing reference to the Little Britain series, but 'banging on about this', is a public forum for debate not the perfect place to present ideas and ask questions as I have in the OP?

You continue to provide your own definitions (or cherry pick them), but why? You want everyone to say how right you are?

Which definitions? The dictionary versions of faith in the OP? I would not choose to post in ATS if I wanted everyone to say I'm right, that is not generally how a debating environment works.

For what it's worth, at least on ATS I would say to many Atheism is becoming like a cult (and I know what the word means, copying and pasting from an online dictionary really isn't going to make you look clever). I say this as in my mind being an atheist doesn't mean you share any views with another atheist - in the same way as someone who doesn't like, let's say one direction, would have any logical reason to reach out to other one direction non-fans.

I scanned an 1880 physical version of a dictionary as well as copy and pasting the 2013 digital version, get it right mate. There is no campaigning here, or reaching out to other atheists. You must be imagining such things as the OP is in response to theists claims I have heard previously on ATS. If it upsets you then of course you have the option to stay away from this thread.

I hate to break this to you, but you being an atheist is a big deal (it seems) to you, and just you - why do you keep trying to make a big deal about it although your threads almost always end up as attacks on the faiths of others.

Ah, I hate to break it to you but none of my threads or posts have ever attacked any faiths in the beligerent way you describe. Please directly quote me while making such unsubstantiated claims in future

My position in life is based on reason, not faith. I am open to change as evidence presents itself. As long as there is zero evidence to support claims of gods I shall continue not to believe in such things. Again, no faith required, just a questioning mind to weigh the balance of probabilities.

the definition in the OP states that faith is synonymous with a belief that one is correct. can you prove that the world is real, and that you're not just insane? no. you just believe it is (or, as per the given definition, "have faith"). as for reason, entropy is an observable effect with the prerequisite of a universe that has existed for a finite time. no mechanism for how it began has been found. the beginning of the universe cannot be explained or known by science, yet you choose to believe it happened in a specific way that doesn't require something to create it. in other words, you're believing in something that has no evidence for it.

The Abrahamic God as mentioned in the old testament carried out many acts of needless harm. If this 'god' was proven to exist I would raise such genocide and murder with said entity, regardless of it's wrath, it would lose a debate about morals.

what a needlessly insulting paragraph. i was answering your op with my opinion, neither of which deal with a specific religion, but a solution to your quandary. you did not ask to discuss the merits of any religion, yet it is the first attack you launch.

Regardless, your idea of 'faith' in the minds of atheists is nothing like the blind faith of a theist, no matter how much you may wish it to be. My assertions from the OP still stand in my opinion.

more assumptions. my belief in a god is based on logic and physics as the most likely solution given the known facts. from your statement it sounds like you've never considered any other position besides your own. you're telling me what my idea of faith is in your own mind? doesn't sound like you set much store by evidence when you make such brazen assumptions.

i was hoping for an interesting discussion, not a thread filled with baiting attempts.

reply to post by Grimpachi

Cheers Grimpachi.
I totally agree and am frankly shocked by the number of people who do not get the difference between theist, agnostic theist, gnostic theist, atheist, agnostic atheist and gnostic theist.
It is interesting to learn that you have also faced the 'atheist faith' accusations in other parts of the digital world. It is very common and I can only assume that the theists who feel threatened by a lack of faith seek to comfort themselves with an idea that those who do not believe in gods have some kind of faith which they can say is wrong or whatever.
It's like being at the pub/bar in a discussion about football, it's ok to support even the crappiest team and have a football conversation with other likeminded blokes, but woe betide the guy who says he doesn't follow the game or any team. They all disapprove of such people.
Thanks for your contributions here so far, and for carrying the torch of reason, it's appreciated

Originally posted by grainofsand

GOS you really do keep banging on about this - knowing you are Welsh were the other positions taken and you had to settle for being the only atheist in the village and you still have a complex about it? Interesting and mildy amusing reference to the Little Britain series, but 'banging on about this', is a public forum for debate not the perfect place to present ideas and ask questions as I have in the OP?

You continue to provide your own definitions (or cherry pick them), but why? You want everyone to say how right you are?

Which definitions? The dictionary versions of faith in the OP? I would not choose to post in ATS if I wanted everyone to say I'm right, that is not generally how a debating environment works.

For what it's worth, at least on ATS I would say to many Atheism is becoming like a cult (and I know what the word means, copying and pasting from an online dictionary really isn't going to make you look clever). I say this as in my mind being an atheist doesn't mean you share any views with another atheist - in the same way as someone who doesn't like, let's say one direction, would have any logical reason to reach out to other one direction non-fans.

I scanned an 1880 physical version of a dictionary as well as copy and pasting the 2013 digital version, get it right mate. There is no campaigning here, or reaching out to other atheists. You must be imagining such things as the OP is in response to theists claims I have heard previously on ATS. If it upsets you then of course you have the option to stay away from this thread.

I hate to break this to you, but you being an atheist is a big deal (it seems) to you, and just you - why do you keep trying to make a big deal about it although your threads almost always end up as attacks on the faiths of others.

Ah, I hate to break it to you but none of my threads or posts have ever attacked any faiths in the beligerent way you describe. Please directly quote me while making such unsubstantiated claims in future

Ah, you ignored my saying I believe that on ATS atheism is becoming more of a cult? Any reason for that?

And attacking faiths, I did say the faiths of others - who you refer to as religious zealots - is that not attacking the faith of others?

Copying and pasting from a dictionary of your choosing shows nothing really other than you know how to copy and paste - I notice you kindly didn't do that though when I referred to the current tide amongst some on ATS who refer to themselves as atheists as being somewhat cultlike.

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz

My position in life is based on reason, not faith. I am open to change as evidence presents itself. As long as there is zero evidence to support claims of gods I shall continue not to believe in such things. Again, no faith required, just a questioning mind to weigh the balance of probabilities.

the definition in the OP states that faith is synonymous with a belief that one is correct. can you prove that the world is real, and that you're not just insane? no. you just believe it is (or, as per the given definition, "have faith"). as for reason, entropy is an observable effect with the prerequisite of a universe that has existed for a finite time. no mechanism for how it began has been found. the beginning of the universe cannot be explained or known by science, yet you choose to believe it happened in a specific way that doesn't require something to create it. in other words, you're believing in something that has no evidence for it.

Nope, I don't believe in any theories about the universe, the jury is still out in my mind, I just honestly state 'I don't know' without inserting an unprovable invisible entity to fill in the blanks

The Abrahamic God as mentioned in the old testament carried out many acts of needless harm. If this 'god' was proven to exist I would raise such genocide and murder with said entity, regardless of it's wrath, it would lose a debate about morals.

what a needlessly insulting paragraph. i was answering your op with my opinion, neither of which deal with a specific religion, but a solution to your quandary. you did not ask to discuss the merits of any religion, yet it is the first attack you launch.

You said this:

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
well i think god hates religion and any world view that seeks to do harm.

My reply about the Abrahamic God was relevant and proportional.

more assumptions. my belief in a god is based on logic and physics as the most likely solution given the known facts. from your statement it sounds like you've never considered any other position besides your own. you're telling me what my idea of faith is in your own mind? doesn't sound like you set much store by evidence when you make such brazen assumptions.

i was hoping for an interesting discussion, not a thread filled with baiting attempts.

You have no evidence to support your claim of gods. Any insertion of 'higher powers' to fill in the blanks of your knowledge is not logical, merely faith based unsubstantiated belief.

Originally posted by something wicked
Ah, you ignored my saying I believe that on ATS atheism is becoming more of a cult? Any reason for that?

Yep, it was off topic and unrelated to my question in the OP so I dismissed it as irrelevant. Start your own thread if you like, I may respond there.

And attacking faiths, I did say the faiths of others - who you refer to as religious zealots - is that not attacking the faith of others?

Anyone trying to force an unsubstantiated faith based argument on me is a religious zealot, simple descriptive term if you care to look it up, no attack there. Of course anyone with their own beliefs who is happy for me to not share the same would not be classed as such.

Copying and pasting from a dictionary of your choosing shows nothing really other than you know how to copy and paste - I notice you kindly didn't do that though when I referred to the current tide amongst some on ATS who refer to themselves as atheists as being somewhat cultlike.

Again, off-topic and to be blunt, I don't really care if you consider non belief as a cult, it is not related to the OP and not welcomed. As I said, start your own thread and I may be tempted to contribute if only for the amusement value.