Why do some theists desperately try to claim a lack of faith as religion?

reply to post by grainofsand


If you love Science as much as I, read up on the works of Thomas Campbell.

wiki.my-big-toe.com...:_Thomas_W._Campbell,_Jr.

From there you can go to his site linked at the bottom of the page or just get to it from here...

www.my-big-toe.com...

I'm not so sure Science lovers do not seek biased research based on their own perception when there are loads more research and experiments being conducted that you may or may not be familiar with, based on said personal bias.

If you have a logical, open, and inquisitive mind, an attitude of scientific pragmatism that appreciates the elegance of fundamental truth and the thrill of breakthrough, you will enjoy this journey of personal and scientific discovery.

The Science of consciousness is a very interesting field and one that cannot be denied.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by charles1952

 

Good morning Charles :-)

I'm not trying to nit-pick, but the word "tangible" is interesting. I hope you're not stacking the deck right from the start. What would you require for "tangible evidence?"

It's an interesting question - no matter how we look at it

What do you require to believe?

Personally, I'll take anything that was written about in the Christian books which doesn't seem to happen since they were written.
Water into wine, walking on water, parting of the sea, feeding of the millions starving in the world with 5 loaves and a couple of fish, raising of the dead, you know, all the things which convinced people in the past.
If I was the Abrahamic God I would reconsider my strategy as the modern world is the place for magic now, more than ever. Why would I believe something based on ancient testimony alone?
That is the blind faith I'm talking about.

Every 'faith' I may have in people or concepts is based on how verifiable such claims are - gods do not offer such options for research so I say bring back the miracles, just one would probably influence my opinion.

reply to post by MamaJ

Thanks for the links, I shall have a look when I have some free investigative time
Right now though I'm off to have a lovely cooked dinner at my friends home.
I have faith that the food will be absolutely delicious and the evening will be enjoyable. This type of faith is qualified by past experience that food consumed at my mates house has always been of top quality. He has never lied to me regarding an invitation for a meal so I also have faith that this is not a cruel joke where I am turned away at the door.
I do not 'know' any of this, it is a faith based position based on previous observed behaviour and knowledge of my friends character, it is a reasoned opinion.
It is a very different faith to the faith in gods though, I'm surprised so many people seem unwilling to accept the different definitions. Is it so they can feel more comfortable about believing in unprovable things..

Originally posted by jiggerj

better because they were given a magic rock.
I know of people cured by taking fake medicine (placebo effect).

sorry what- you were extolling the virtues of science, I gave you an example of religion, it was specifically faith that saved this fella- believe in science then believe in Jesus according to your logic-

But, I don't know of anyone that re-grew a lost arm through his faith in Jesus.

What an odd thing to say, whoever suggested such a thing?

Jesus = Magic rock. Believe in both. Don't believe in either. But, don't believe in one and not the other.

how very odd you are- and I will be able to believe in what I want thank you, same way as you believe what science will be able to achieve in the future- you are a bit of a proto- nostradamus?

The problem is absolute faith in science. Science is basically taking one really small regularity common to the universe but no matter how much science you perform you can't even correctly describe your own finger nail, the common traits of a finger nail, yes, but not the complete uniqueness or even close too.

The serial make-up of language is inadequate to describe the infinite spectrum's prevalent throughout our universe in any detail, Chinese and such "picture" based writing systems is slightly better but still far of as all things here happen at once with infinite detail and not in any serial order, though the human perception gives the illusion of seriality and separate events.

The closer you look the more detail you will see but just as Pi there is no end no matter how close you look. Science is practical and very interesting but has little in the way of answering the broader questions since it's so extremely narrow and selective. What we have to live with is that the world as it is cannot be accurately described in words or math, it can only be experienced fully as it is, wordlessly. So the complete belief in science is to actually leave out everything that cannot be described because of the limitations of serial language and calculation.

Quantum physics is quite interesting though but still just a very limited use and the human use of it cannot be compared to the quantum operations which are constantly happening everywhere, at once, without end, that forms the ever changing reality we are subject too. Science is finally catching up to philosophy though which will bridge the gap between religion and science, you cannot have the one without the other, polarity is always present as science demands or we wouldn't have any results at all.

its likely that theist try to claim lack of faith as a religion because they have a strange thought process regarding social interactions that dictates that you absolutely can not question or condemn the behaviors of anyone that is "part of the club" regardless of how silly they may be and by making your lack of belief a faith they are attempting to bring you into the fold subconsciously assuming that your "attacks" on their faith will cease (because this is how they would behave themselves)

of course there are all kinds of logical problems with thinking like this but...... well logic isnt some peoples strong suit but this is essentially the dynamic of tight knit groups and why many people find them to be so appealing (and why people like to identify themselves in so many ways.... nationality, religion, political leanings, etc....... because these groupings provide safe havens that allow people to disregard their own perceived short comings)

for those that believe there is nothing other than the physical, the physical fundamentalists as I call them- to them love for a child is nothing more than the reactions of chemicals in your brain due to some instinct to protect the species- there is nothing deeper, so when somebody cries at the funeral of a child, it is irrelevant, there is nothing significant about it just water coming from their eyes and the love they think they feel is nothing more than the products of physical jiggery pokery within their bodies

They may wish to live like that, the physical fundamentalists, but thankfully most of us don't

reply to post by grainofsand

Every 'faith' I may have in people or concepts is based on how verifiable such claims are - gods do not offer such options for research so I say bring back the miracles, just one would probably influence my opinion.

This made me laugh. I was going to reply to your OP directly, but my reply was ponderous and this is more fun

So much of our thinking is led by words, experience - perception - relativism (for some of us - or rather all of us if we're honest)

Then - back to words...how do we agree on what makes a miracle a miracle?

We've sent a fancy toaster to Mars (so cool), spent some time making the tiniest of the tiny things run into each other, discovered and begun to unravel the code for what we are - we know things now that Noah could not have known. What counts as a miracle these days?

I think theists maybe (when I'm feeling good about the world) are mostly wishing we could join them - and see a lack of faith simply as an inability - when they don't see it as a threat

We wish the same thing in our own way: I was blind, but now I see :-)

They want to call it a religion to not believe because it's like shooting fish in a barrel...how hard is it to be right when everything revolves around a word? Believe

It's not a religion to not believe - so should we call it a stance? Though that still suggests philosophy, opinion - belief...words

Funny - one of the best explanations for faith in my mind is: I want to believe... It works as well for religion as it does for UFOs. Maybe they'll then say atheists just don't want to believe...they simply can't believe that we don't believe

They are like atheists in their own way then - should we call it a draw?

:-)

(I'd give anything to see a miracle)

reply to post by grainofsand


Ahahaha.... well have a good day and enjoy the experience. After all, that is what everything is..... an experience of information.

Because you call faith and see faith differently than I does not make me think less of you nor do I feel superior. We are on different paths is how I view it.

It is a very different faith to the faith in gods though, I'm surprised so many people seem unwilling to accept the different definitions. Is it so they can feel more comfortable about believing in unprovable things.

I've always had faith in the possibilities of experience and believe we all have the potential for all experiences to happen, although it would take many life times.

There is also a knowing that all that is, was first created via thought.

The video I linked you to, is a good one, in my opinion and its based on Science. Maybe you will connect with it, maybe not.

Before we part for the day... Happy Easter.

Today, being Easter is not considered by ME the Resurrection in "Jesus" only. To me it signifies all human beings story (information) being resurrected after physical death and the reflection of immortality outside matter. His story is a reflection of our own. We are a reflection in this reality. Just wanted you to get into my mind a little and understand I am not dogmatic in a Christian sense, but more of my own reflection in the existence of matter and space time where I find myself.

My scientific method for proof is my own.. its been personal. Its an experience within my consciousness as is yours denies having faith in any God or creator of life and existence. Its all good... we each have a path we are destined to take.

Also, If you watch the video, I will be interested in discussing it with you. (hint, hint)

reply to post by grainofsand

I've chosen conspiracies in religion to post this because from my experiences at ATS it appears to me that there might be a religious conspiracy to paint people who do not believe in gods with the same faith based religious brush which they follow themselves.

Hey, it's the 21st century and there are conspiracies around every corner... some being (likely) real, too, lol.

Here's how I see it:
In this universe, it is impossible to prove than anything does not exist. One main reason is because we just arn't that smart yet. We've hardly begun to understand our own little corner of existence and all the hows, whys and wherefores to our existence. From that, it is a matter of faith in one's beliefs to say that god (name of your choice) does not exist.

If you wish to call it 'faith' then that is your right of course, but please present your cries of 'faith' with the caveat that there are different English language definitions of the thing you label faith, and faith in the research of others, while being able to test their claims, is very different to faith in old scriptures which are unable to be verified in any way.

Ahhh, very good! "... cries of faith" is an excellent bit of framework to isolate and reduce any opposing view! Well done! But having pinned that small literary medal on you, the answer remains the same... it requires as much faith to disbelieve in deity as it does to bite the hook.

Cheers

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Sorry to offend you. lol

I do KNOW. There it is again....

Yes, fine fine..you know..as some know that the end of the world was coming in December of last year, and some know that every satellite and object in the sky is a plejarian mothership.

Either we use words as their meaning or we don't, in which case, might as well replace every word with pancake..it would be equal.

You believe..you feel...you assume..these fit. but to know something that in this physical universe is currently unknowable is simply not accurate.

Hell, we are just barely starting to know what the weather will be like tomorrow...still a lot of uncertainty there...and yet somehow, you have managed to know about the most profound questions that humanity has been pondering and speculating on since the dawning of thought?

ok, then please lay out your undeniable peer reviewed and tested evidence to share this knowledge...otherwise, accept that its not full fact knowledge but rather just a..inclination perhaps.

In time, maybe you too will know, It matter not to me.

The only way I could "know", short of some new invention that was able to track the "soul" leaving a body and remaining conscious with 100% accuracy (and even then I would have questions), would be for me to simply die and experience it first hand..in which case, sure...its not a maybe situation..it is a eventually for everyone..but that won't do much good for the living knowledge we have.

Don't call me delusional and please not a liar either. Have some respect for our difference in opinion.

My bad..not my intent..was just trying to say to know is not applicable for things paranormal. I am being literal here..knowing is a powerful statement.

quote]
I have faith mom loves me

Should you not KNOW this? ^^^

How could I? She may be a closet sociopath whom only acts the role of a loving mom. She could actually hate me but know better than to show it due to me taking care of her, etc. I choose to believe she loves me..the only thing I know is that I love her.

But the last time I "knew" someone loved me was my ex-wife.
That made me realize I don't..and can't know what people truly are feeling in their head..thats outside of my knowledge.

Originally posted by grainofsand
If I was the Abrahamic God I would reconsider my strategy as the modern world is the place for magic now, more than ever.

Now OP this is a great statement. I do not believe in gods, but I am not an atheist. Atheists, take our objection to the Abrahamic God, and contend that in order to deny that god, you now must become a Nihilistic Naturalist. Enforcement of this bifurcation fallacy is the whole gale flag warning of a religion being pushed. Then they lead kids into this deception and start it as a teaching, and are allowed even to teach this religion in schools, since it "is not a religion." I have a deep seated objection to this. This is a social trick foisted by a specific group which wishes to promote a new state religion.

Just because I reject Zeus, Anu, Aten, Shamash, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, and all the other petty bloodthirsty gods who seemed to work teeeensy little magic spells to wow the faithful yet cannot stop famines, floods and meteors, and leave the Earth in eons of abject suffering by the sentient occupants, does not mean that I then only believe in chemicals, nuclear, and Electromagnetism as the only reality.

Atheism is a specific teaching. It is the compulsory adherence to idea around which testing for falsification is prohibited. A religion.

What most people do, when pressed hard with this fallacy is retreat into reasonable agnosticism. Which is what you are doing here. That is ethical. Your position as stated now has understandable cohesiveness. Please don't become an apologist for the religion of SSkeptics.

Good Thread

reply to post by Miracula


I can't argue with any of that

Proselytizing is offensive - even when one believes it's for the greater good

The response to proselytizing is often defensive - it all starts to look like the same thing after a while

In a perfect world we would all agree to work together to create a system and a life that works for everyone no matter what we believe. It shouldn't be mandatory that we all believe the same thing

It sure would be easier though :-)

Meanwhile - someone always benefits from all the squabbling

Originally posted by TheEthicalSkeptic
I do not believe in gods,

So, your an atheist.

but I am not an atheist.

no...your an atheist.

Atheists, take our objection to the Abrahamic God, and contend that in order to deny that god, you now must become a Nihilistic Naturalist.

No, that is your speculation on furthering an atheist's mindset.
You can actually be an atheist spiritualist...you can believe in a ton of things, a atheist simply means you don't believe in gods...that's it..outside of that, there is a whole host of personalities, from people that believe in bigfoot flying spaceships into dimensions, to ghosts everywhere, to there is nothing outside of what has already been observed, etc...

The rest of your post is a strawman. your an atheist..your just not an ass about it.

reply to post by SaturnFX


First, I love your personality... and have admired your personality since I joined. Just sayin...

Yes, fine fine..you know..as some know that the end of the world was coming in December of last year, and some know that every satellite and object in the sky is a plejarian mothership.

There is evidence that the Universe is unpredictable and Quantum Mechanics shows us the "potential" of possibilities. This you stated above is/was a potential and the manifestation of such did not happen as an experience in this world we call reality, however it doesn't mean it didn't happen. We just didn't experience such.

Me personally I didn't KNOW anything you mentioned above was going to happen, but the mind if kept open didn't dismiss it wouldn't. Mine anyway...

You believe..you feel...you assume..these fit. but to know something that in this physical universe is currently unknowable is simply not accurate.

In the human experience we base it ALL on our senses. Feel is one of these senses. What we See.... the ALL.. the nature of all that we see... is an infinite frequency.... all matter originates and exists by virtue from a force that brings the particle of an atom to a vibration and holds this most minute Solar System of an atom together. Behind the force is a conscious and intelligent MIND. Science of the mind and consciousness is evident.

Hell, we are just barely starting to know what the weather will be like tomorrow...still a lot of uncertainty there...and yet somehow, you have managed to know about the most profound questions that humanity has been pondering and speculating on since the dawning of thought?

The weather has always been a force that is not predictable either. Its full of potential.

I KNOW where I come from and KNOW the world around me. Since I was able to be self aware my mother will tell you I had a mind of my own and a knowing that I am more than what people tell me. I have known I am a child learning in this world for the betterment of tomorrow.

After daily study, observation, reasoning, analysis, experimentation, and everything else I am capable of concluding a knowing from, I have concluded the knowing is still a knowing. Its embedded in me.

I think, therefore I am. Should I only say I have faith I exist? I know I exist. I am that from which I came from and where I will go back to. How do I know what my senses tell me are correct? Its a KNOWING that is from thinking and experience of information.

Science and religion, and all kinds of philosophies of life have only proven even more this knowing.

Words do matter, its evident they are very, very powerful.

If you have not entertained the video I linked to above... please do and maybe we will be on the same wave length, if not for a moment in time.

My bad..not my intent..was just trying to say to know is not applicable for things paranormal. I am being literal here..knowing is a powerful statement.

Paranormal to me.... is..... normal. lol

Knowing is having a complete understanding. Its not all that powerful.. it just is.

How could I? She may be a closet sociopath whom only acts the role of a loving mom. She could actually hate me but know better than to show it due to me taking care of her, etc. I choose to believe she loves me..the only thing I know is that I love her. But the last time I "knew" someone loved me was my ex-wife. That made me realize I don't..and can't know what people truly are feeling in their head..thats outside of my knowledge.

My kids KNOW I love them. They see the evidence of such. A mothers love is undeniable unless she proves differently.

When the two of you (you and your ex) came together as one (intimacy) she proved her love for you. The love then separated for one reason or another and you became two again. That does not mean the love is lost.... just the love you expected to always be.... is lost.

reply to post by TheEthicalSkeptic

Atheism is a specific teaching. It is the compulsory adherence to idea around which testing for falsification is prohibited. A religion.

All this is so easy to say - and no doubt it feels just lovely sliding off the tongue (or keyboard) - but what are you really saying?

Where and how is atheism taught? Why do you choose (choose) the word 'adhere'? And my favorite part: compulsory?

Falsification is prohibited - by naturlalists?

Seriously? :-)

Please - spend some time trying to defend what you're saying here

What most people do, when pressed hard with this fallacy is retreat into reasonable agnosticism. Which is what you are doing here. That is ethical. Your position as stated now has understandable cohesiveness. Please don't become an apologist for the religion of SSkeptics.

This is almost too much - by what authority do you get to decide that a 'retreat' into agnosticism is ethical? Retreat? You're hilarious you are

Oh, EthicalSkeptic - your name is such a giveaway - and such a hoot

:-)

reply to post by TheEthicalSkeptic

Just because I reject Zeus

You reject Zeus? Awwww...... I'm heart broken now.

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

First, I love your personality... and have admired your personality since I joined. Just sayin...

Well, I love ya also, even though that statement shows you have low standards

Me personally I didn't KNOW anything you mentioned above was going to happen, but the mind if kept open didn't dismiss it wouldn't. Mine anyway...

Oh, I never dismiss possibilities
It is possible that there is life after, that civilization would have concluded last December, that aliens are everywhere, etc.
Some things are more possible than others (even likely)...some are a bit of a stretch...nothing impossible, but many things are improbable.

Something about feelings being a sense (accidently deleted this bit)

No, feel...outside of actual physical contact feel..but emotional feel is not a sense, it is a interpretation of our senses...
For instance, you see a grey sky, you feel cold rain, you then feel emotionally a bit sad(maybe..just example)..sadness isn't something that is out there to sense, it is a feeling you get through the associations of the senses and your system of belief or experience.
Same with the other feelings your discussing..not a sense, its a interpretation based on senses...big difference there.

KNOW the world around me.

You know your world around you to a degree...I don't...its what makes me curious and keep seeking out answers to life and all its weirdness and mysteries...the understanding that I don't know
Hell, its one reason why I like ATS...explore this world from many other perspectives to maybe see a greater shape.
But still, we are simply in our little boxes trying to imagine the shape of the exterior without seeing it.

Science and religion, and all kinds of philosophies of life have only proven even more this knowing.

Science tries to examine the box, religion tries to give the box meaning. If your wanting to know the nature of the box, you use science, if your more concerned about its significance, you use religion (although religion is simply guesswork and wishes moreso than anything credible I find..in which case, religion falls to group think philosophy..and frankly, I can come up with far cooler philosophy than 2k year old dogma)

My kids KNOW I love them. They see the evidence of such. A mothers love is undeniable unless she proves differently.

See, and around we go.
They believe you love them..and in this case, if you are honest, then they would be correct (whatever love is anyhow..different subject).
They see evidence of love, but unless they somehow jump into your mind, they cannot state matter of factly...after all, you might just be fattening them up to eat them and need to keep them trusting you

Originally posted by SaturnFXyour an atheist..your just not an ass about it.

In the clinical definition actually yes Saturn you are correct, and gosh I wish it were enforced in the manner you describe. In other words, I wish for what you contend here to be true, but sadly it is only a game of discourse.

But beyond disbelief in certain religions, technically I do not know if there are gods, because I cannot define one.

So I refuse to declare myself part of just another group with specific teachings on what I am to believe. Reality is not enforced in the way you are attempting to spin it here.

I will not become an apologist for Naturalist Nihilism. So I am not an atheist - I make that clear. When your church is not run by Naturalist Nihilism priests with specific teachings, come and talk with me then.

That is our sad reality.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Awwww..... (((HUGS))). Not the first time I have been told my standards are too low.

There is a knowing from the nature of things.

I KNOW there will be Earthquakes.

I KNOW there will be volcanic eruptions.

I KNOW there will be changes to the Earth.

I KNOW the Universe is into the green thing cause it recycles.

I KNOW my mom loves me.

I KNOW there is a creator ... a force... that enables me to breathe without me being aware of such breath.

There are things I just KNOW without having "faith" because the nature of things that surrounds me is evident there need not be faith, but a knowing. Its proof that brings about a knowing.

Does a knowing come from faithful evidence? Depends on the viewer.

Nous~

The basic meaning of "nous" or "intellect" is "understanding", but several sources or types of "understandings" are often distinguished from each other: Sense perception is a source of feelings, impressions, or raw data about things, but it needs to be interpreted in order to be converted into real understanding. Reason is a source of new understandings but it is built by putting together and distinguishing other things already understood.

en.wikipedia.org...