God is Jesus; Jesus is God

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

The trinity was a concept that was added 200+ years after his life

Is there any factual basis for that belief, or is that just something you decided to believe because it makes you feel comfortable with your previous decision to reject the Christian belief in the Trinity?

My understanding is that the belief of the Trinity is as old as Christianity itself, and was never doubted within Christianity, but only had to be defended from criticism from outside the church.

That there ever was a controversy over the Trinity, to me, was caused by the question of the details of what sort of 'substance' God was made of, which of course is something peculiar for the time (with pagan influences to thought) and not something that would even be questioned in today's world.

edit on 8-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

trinity is older my friend.

reply to post by Akragon

Personally I find THIS to be the best definition of God . . .

Alright, so I follow the link provided, and see this:
"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. . . ."

Sounds like a person being described, to me.

The first person to use the word trinity was Tertullian if im not mistaken...

The first known use of the word, monotheism was in 1500 AD, does that mean there was no such thing as monotheism before that?

After he died, the church decided to make him equal with God, which is a lie...

So . . ?
Because a council or whatever decided that, then the Trinity as a concept is forever invalidated?
The trinity existed before what you are talking about happened, and there is plenty of evidence for that. What happened later cannot take that away.

they added his own Godhood onto the stack...

. . and . . ?
That was nothing new, and was old when the gospels were written.

. . . along with another person "the Holy spirit" which is again represented by a person rather then something that is within all of us...

Jesus addressed Him as a person.
There seems to be two different usages of those two words in combination, "holy" and spirit", that doesn't come out in the English translation. Sometimes it is holy spirit, and sometimes it is reversed as, spirit holy. In the English, it always comes out, holy spirit. It is the difference of which word is being emphasised that determines the order.
When people are being filled, it is a spirit that happens to be holy, not, the Holy Spirit.

Which made "Christianity" an exclusive club... elevating the followers of said religion to a higher status then any other religion of the time.

And how is that?

Well considering the "trinity" was an idea that wasn't originally "Christian" . . .

So now you seem to be saying that a trinity cannot be real because the number three was already known?

... It was supposed to be Jesus, but somehow I think Paul was the real founder...

OK, let's say that your theory is correct, then the gospels were written by his direction, invalidating the very existence of Jesus, if what you believe about Paul's nature is true.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Christianity is the greatest and most influential example of plagiarism you will ever know.

OK, then, can you cite the book that Christianity was copied from.
If not, then that is an inappropriate use of the word.

reply to post by CrypticSouthpaw

trinity is older my friend.

If so, then I am unaware of it.
Do you have a legitimate academic source for that?
I did notice that you had several videos posted but had a non-serious look to them so I did not click on them.
Did I make a mistake and one is actually made by a professor of Egyptology?

reply to post by jmdewey60

Alright, so I follow the link provided, and see this:
"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. . . ."

Sounds like a person being described, to me.

You should really read the rest of it...

For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself. He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him. He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name.

The first known use of the word, monotheism was in 1500 AD, does that mean there was no such thing as monotheism before that?

In Mark Jesus said the lord is ONE God... even the OT says that... The trinity involves two "persons" that were never declared to be God by anyone who would actually know...

Because a council or whatever decided that, then the Trinity as a concept is forever invalidated?
The trinity existed before what you are talking about happened, and there is plenty of evidence for that. What happened later cannot take that away.

I realize this... its a concept that was adopted by outside influences... Jesus did not speak of a trinity... ever

they added his own Godhood onto the stack...

so...
That was nothing new, and was old when the gospels were written.

Oh but it was new... In the OT it says he would be "called" God... (Immanuel) but it matters not what others called him... After his actual life he was called God in the flesh... but by what is written, meaning the words he actually said which are recorded, he didn't consider himself God at all... Rather quite submissive to his Father who is the true God... He did say he was Gods son... who sits at the right hand of God... but always said his Father was Greater, not equal to him...

His "Godhood" was created after the fact... his "divine" nature was not...

Jesus addressed Him as a person.

Is it because Jesus called the holy spirit HE... as in "the comforter"? Everything was male oriented back then... any spirit or angel or entity was always considered a HE... That doesn't necessarily mean HE is a person as we known it... And because Genesis says "let us create man in Our image" anything in that image is a person... so God is a person, as is the holy spirit?

Which made "Christianity" an exclusive club... elevating the followers of said religion to a higher status then any other religion of the time.


And how is that?

Our God came to earth mentality... The old ours is better then yours argument...

So now you seem to be saying that a trinity cannot be real because the number three was already known?

I didn't say the trinity can not be real... I said it doesn't add up according to scripture... It might be real, anything is possible... but it seems to me that IF Jesus was a part of said holy "trinity" he wouldn't have left out the part about him being God... In which case I would likely be a Christian if he did say such things... But he didn't...

OK, let's say that your theory is correct, then the gospels were written by his direction, invalidating the very existence of Jesus, if what you believe about Paul's nature is true.

Paul didn't know Jesus... that makes no sense at all...

His actual followers (apparently) wrote the gospels... which were first hand testamonies... Paul would have known of his teaching if he had anything to do with the gospels development... He would have reiterated at least a few pieces of what Jesus taught... He didn't, he made an entirely different line of teaching and thought...

Paul's writing shows no signs of even being in contact with the apostles, aside from names...

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by CrypticSouthpaw

 

trinity is older my friend.

If so, then I am unaware of it.
Do you have a legitimate academic source for that?
I did notice that you had several videos posted but had a non-serious look to them so I did not click on them.
Did I make a mistake and one is actually made by a professor of Egyptology?

edit on 8-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

listen to them and you can decide if the words are serious or not. The other videos i posted were for amuzement my friend. The real lessons begin.

I will clear the fog of reality. Creation is much more tangible than you think. And god is much closer. They are already here. I'm sure you will find those videos quite insightful.

Its edu-hip-hop. If you can follow what they are saying you will learn a lot. If you cannot. Listen to it over a couple times to hear what is said more clearly. Think of this as a way of telling you a story quickly but with music witch penitrates your soul. There is words spoken from ancient tests in the original language throuough the songs. So enjoy them. atum is much older.

reply to post by Akragon

You should really read the rest of it...

Right, but it still sounds like it is talking about a person to me.

In Mark Jesus said the lord is ONE God... even the OT says that...

In the Greek sentence structure and word forms of both the Jesus quote in Mark, and the Septuagint that he is apparently quoting in Deuteronomy, it is pretty clear that the clause, "Lord one (or 'only') is", is a predicate. So it is saying, "The Lord, alone, is your God."
You could interpret that to mean, "Out of all the various gods in the world, only 'The Lord' is your God, Israel."

The other thing to note about this quote, it is directly attached to what follows, and the point of the conversation between Jesus and the scribe, or religious lawyer. It goes from "Hear, Oh Israel . . ." to the "Love God with all your Heart . . ." part, so Jesus could have seen the two parts as being a single thought, that you love God because He is your national god.

The trinity involves two "persons" that were never declared to be God by anyone who would actually know...

I have mentioned a couple times that "God" in the New Testament means the person we think of as the Father of Jesus, so it is not going to call anyone else that (except the one example I already noted, which was by the device of having one of the characters in the story say it, which would be Thomas), even if the other persons are generically 'god'. We know that they are of a specially divine nature by the context, Jesus being one, and the Holy Spirit, if you look closely enough to determine if it is referring to the actual person or just to a spirit that is holy. Jesus said he would send another advocate, meaning another like himself, so meant a person, who would act as an intermediary on his behalf.
So, there you have it, three persons acting in concert for our salvation, God, and Jesus, and the Advocate, three makes a "trinity" and that can not be disputed. The details about 'equality' and the 'substance' of these individuals is, and historically has been, up for debate. The one thing never debated in 'normal' Christianity is the "who" of the trinity.

reply to post by Akragon

I realize this... its a concept that was adopted by outside influences... Jesus did not speak of a trinity... ever

See my comment in the above post.

Oh but it was new... In the OT it says he would be "called" God... (Immanuel) but it matters not what others called him...

I'm not talking about it being as old as the writing of Isaiah.
I'm talking about as old as the actual events, as in the formation of the church by the disciples. By the time the gospels were written, decades later, the idea that Jesus was part of the godhead would have been already entrenched.
Some of the things that you attribute to Paul is really just him reciting Christian songs that already were an integral part of the Jesus tradition.
Can you cite what that "outside influence" is that you believe created the idea of the divinity of Jesus?

... After his actual life he was called God in the flesh...

There are people who try to say that the New Testament says that, by taking the end of verse 15 and adding it to the middle of verse 16 (while skipping the beginning) in 1 Timothy 3, to make basically a new verse that superficially looks like it says that.

... Rather quite submissive to his Father who is the true God... He did say he was Gods son... who sits at the right hand of God...

More than that, Jesus said he was sent "out from the Father", and means to me that he was at one time 'part' of God, literally an offspring. If that does not make you god, then I don't know what does.

... but always said his Father was Greater, not equal to him...

Again, that is an issue concerning the "how", and not the "who" of the Trinity.

His "Godhood" was created after the fact... his "divine" nature was not...

I don't know about "created" but where it was articulated was in Colossians, where it is describing Jesus as being completely qualified, and lacking nothing that would make him a competent member of the godhead.

... That doesn't necessarily mean HE is a person as we known it...

Offer up your own definition of a person. I would say it is someone who is conscious of being an individual.

reply to post by Akragon

Our God came to earth mentality... The old ours is better then yours argument...

OK . . and . . so what?
The New Testament was written when, around the writers, temples were being built to worship the Roman Emperors as gods.

... but it seems to me that IF Jesus was a part of said holy "trinity" he wouldn't have left out the part about him being God... In which case I would likely be a Christian if he did say such things... But he didn't...

That is why the Gospel of John was written, to make sure no one misses the fact that Jesus was God, in the Old Testament sense, where you had this angel, Yahweh, the OT calls him, going around talking as if he was God Himself.
If you want to say this Yahweh character is or was God, then so is Jesus because he is filling the same role, talking for God, and representing God, and making it known that there is no other way to God but through him.

... Paul would have known of his teaching if he had anything to do with the gospels development... He would have reiterated at least a few pieces of what Jesus taught...

If Paul "invented" Christianity, as you claim, then how could he have not had a hand in writing the Gospels? Those are the founding documents of the Christian religion.
It's the doom of Judaism, who had their chance and failed, to be replaced by a new group to enter God's Kingdom, the one he was commissioning through his disciples. The gospels serve that purpose to pronounce judgment on the system that was to fade away and to be abandoned by God.

There is only a couple of teachings by Jesus that could be considered peculiar to him. All of those are in Paul's writings, Jesus dying for us on the cross, Jesus resurrected to be with God in heaven, his teachings on marriage and divorce, and the practice of the Lord's Supper.

Paul's writing shows no signs of even being in contact with the apostles, aside from names...

I think that the reason that you believe that is because whether you admit it to yourself or not, you believe that Acts is real history.

reply to post by CrypticSouthpaw

listen to them and you can decide if the words are serious or not.

I listened to probably 10 seconds of it and got the impression of someone trying to get in contact with their imaginary African "roots".

reply to post by jmdewey60

OK, then, can you cite the book that Christianity was copied from.
If not, then that is an inappropriate use of the word.

No. I'm not doing that for you. Look up ancient Sumerian, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Aztec cultures. All of them have trademark symbols that are strangely similar to Christian ideology. These are the same style religions that got stomped out and labeled as blasphemous, while their doctrines and traditions were amalgamated and their source materials destroyed to hide the fact.

I'm not doing your research for you, so look it up.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

No. I'm not doing that for you. Look up ancient . . .

OK, then there is no book that Christianity was copied from.
There would have to be such a book in order for there to be a plagiarism that 'Christianity' was guilty of.
You could use another way of describing what you believe, that if you were to look through thousands of documents, you could take little scraps of text from here and there and organize them in such a way as to seem rather similar to Christianity.

Originally posted by Elbereth11
reply to post by MrBigDave

 

u have no clue about life my friend,keep searching,i just offerd u jesuses salvation.

Really?

First of all, you have no clue how big my clue about life is!

Second of all, what makes you think that I don't already have Jesus' salvation?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by CrypticSouthpaw

 

listen to them and you can decide if the words are serious or not.

I listened to probably 10 seconds of it and got the impression of someone trying to get in contact with their imaginary African "roots".

Someone doesn't have pacients. Lol. W.e. if you wanna be ignorant go for it. i might just leave you behind for lols. I am here to school people and set them on the right path before the happening. i guess you can continue wondering about the whole god thing and life and what not. Tho i gave you the answers its not going to be satisfying enough because all your questions would be answered. And the only thing left is your uncertainty towards those answers because of your lack of experience. But thats okay. Everyone, well almost everyone lacks experience in this feild. So i am here to say i don't really care about persuing you guys and converting you. You wanted answers you got them. might of not of been the answers you were looking for or were expecting but reguardless. The secrets to life are not as intense as people try to paint this mysterious brush around it all, and its kind of a joke. Understanding the basics of how the universe works and how the soul works is quite elementary. But people have never been to that school so they would never know. And being a kid that never went to school and grew up. You developed your way of thinking from another kid that grew up and preached as a reverend in a church, and those very same people are the people whose word you take to heart. Me? i am the paranormal Oracle. I have lived life since i could remeber with extremely creepy experiences with closet doors opening and severed floating heads. Seeing shadows. And having this under lying feeling that i am ancient. Even as at the age of 8 i was studying biology. I had planted, and cloned plants. I had metamorphisized cattapilliars and frogs alike.
i studied books on bugs and ecosystems when i was 9 and 10. So understanding how organisms all work for the one and one for all for survival. We come to understand that the spiritual realm is very similar.

the difference being when we earthlings call our god the one true god. Is because we have reptillian owls here on earth sacrifising people in order to figure out eternal life. The owls are called one death and seven death. They die once and they do not reincarnate. That is the end of them and their soul. They are made of light fire, not black matter like us, We were made in gods image. And a flame does not carry on it burns out.

But what the owls do not realize is that their very being is the being of fire and light. Therefore they cannot have darkness in them and shall never be granted it. Their fire shall burn until the day they die and become as smoke and vapour in the air.

that is their price for being fire, for having technology and being demi-gods. They begged and begged for eternal life but Osiris did not grant it to them. And so they looked upon earth with a firey rage. Our humble weak planet full of mortal men. and these lizard owls decended upon us to take our wives and try to make children who would have eternal life. But it all failed, everytime. It only created abominations and nothing more. This send the owls into a frenzy that resulted in the destruction of our civilization.

Now they continually return every cycle. In hope of the next *crop* of humans for harvesting will give them the gene they want for eternal life. but they will never find it and will waste their years of one life trying to find it. And shall perish as the grains in the feild under the dirt of next harvest.

that is why the pleiades chose a tree. And why they call the humans they posess star seeds. because the term seeds is used to desrcibe the pleiades as they lack the same kind of soul we have. Therfore they metaphor these things with harvests and cycles and what not. because these birds don't have a chance for redemption. They could of not waited for Osiris to give them eternal life so they turned their back on god and fall from heaven onto earth where the snake tempts us and continues to do so. When the rapture comes the snake will cause catakylsm on earth and claim to be here to save us from it. But do not freat.

Because before that event Yahweh is coming. For 3 days of darkness Orion is sending her fleet here. She will be the spider that she once was. Who paints the sky and the stars. She is our mother, and this is her earth. And we will be taking it back from all feathered serpents. For they are not welcome here.


then don't watch it. Anyone who does sit thru it will defenantly see there is ancient knowledge being spoken. And half those songs are words spoken from the book of the dead... and other various texts.



I am speaking the truth. Check this video out.

Maya POPOL VuH the maya creation and salvation myth.

reply to post by CrypticSouthpaw

That is why the pleiades chose a tree. And why they call the humans they posess star seeds. because the term seeds is used to desrcibe the pleiades as they lack the same kind of soul we have.

I don't know.
Sounds like so much superstition to me.
I try to be a bit more pragmatic and think there were reasons people made up mythology way back when.
I don't think we need to be concerned with any of it but to study it as a curiosity.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by CrypticSouthpaw

 

That is why the pleiades chose a tree. And why they call the humans they posess star seeds. because the term seeds is used to desrcibe the pleiades as they lack the same kind of soul we have.

I don't know.
Sounds like so much superstition to me.
I try to be a bit more pragmatic and think there were reasons people made up mythology way back when.
I don't think we need to be concerned with any of it but to study it as a curiosity.

edit on 9-4-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Im not so sure about that. The egpytian mythology and those pictures i posted SHOULD be unrelated to the popol voh. But strangely it is not. It is pretty much the exact same story.

Funny thing about all this, The symbolism for the feathered serpent or the owl is spread out everywhere. Literally everywhere. You cannot escape the symbolism. And people are very unconsious about it. Which means they are unconsious about what really is going on in the world.

Not everyone thinks of life as work and following a clock. Many of these occalt types will venture out into the woods to pay a little homage to some alien owls. No biggie. Cus its all myth and lore right?

wake up.

reply to post by CrypticSouthpaw

The symbolism for the feathered serpent or the owl is spread out everywhere. Literally everywhere. You cannot escape the symbolism.

It's not because it is in "people's" subconscious, it is because there is an underground secret religion of the illuminati where the members on purpose put those things in the public to laugh at Christianity and think that doing that means they have 'power'.
That is the 'reward' for those people belonging, and really only serving darkness and evil.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by CrypticSouthpaw

 

The symbolism for the feathered serpent or the owl is spread out everywhere. Literally everywhere. You cannot escape the symbolism.

It's not because it is in "people's" subconscious, it is because there is an underground secret religion of the illuminati where the members on purpose put those things in the public to laugh at Christianity and think that doing that means they have 'power'.
That is the 'reward' for those people belonging, and really only serving darkness and evil.

Actually they serve the light, and banish the darkness.

Its the existance of mans fear of the dark that can create the false dueality of light being more powerful than darkness combined with all the submininal messaging.

The illuminati are the pleiades. And the pleiades are the beings claiming the light is the way. So they are trying to take something that is just a physical state. One of the 4 physical states. Fire. And people have worshiped fire for a long time claiming fire is the way. It is no different than light. Light comes from fire and heat.

I thought i made it somewhat clear that the 4 elements wind fire water and earth all get streched apart and ripped into black energy, it pulls it into a singularity. Each partical of dark matter can be anything. Any element. But the reason why this process exists is because otherwise the universe would be cluttered with matter.

Because inside a particle of dark matter is the compression of magntudes of matter for its scale. Its rather astronomical.

higher dimensional beings are the beings of black matter. Because they are made of the 5th element. Dark matter. Which everything recycles through over and over.

reply to post by CrypticSouthpaw


The fifth element is spirit. Energy. Thought. Intention. The tool by which the other four are guided and structured. The fifth element is our tool for mastering the lessons that fire, water, earth, and air have to teach us. The medium by which we grasp the essential nature of those four elements. In this way, the fifth element binds the other four so that we might ascend beyond the pithy constraints of our base nature by learning to work with instead of against ourselves. That's the secret of alchemy. Everyone was so busy hoarding gold that they forgot they themselves are also lead, waiting to be transformed into a shining golden heart. Alchemy isn't about becoming rich using the base materials of the earth. It's about becoming an icon of peace and hope by mastering the baser elements of our nature. Not repressing our nature. Mastering it. Even the worst parts of us have something to teach us, and ignoring that will only leave us ever more ignorant. Instead of caging the lion, give it freedom. No beast will ever fight harder or create more chaos than when it is imprisoned. So it is with nature. So it is with us. You speak of sin as though it is a curse. It is not a curse, it is an opportunity. We are opportunity incarnate. But we prefer to live in dreams born of ignorance than in reality born of potential.

It's a relationship. The universe teaches you about the movement of your life and how you can direct the flow of your destiny, and you give back by helping your fellow humans preserve and maintain the world around you. It's a relationship that manifests on a physical level through the same kind of interaction you observe in atomic particles, using patterns to create effects in the world. But the relationship originates from principles that take place at a quantum level, principles that have always governed the dance of atomics from the beginning of time.

My point here is that there is no master and servant relationship because the master is the servant and the servant is the master. The collection of individuals is a cohesive unit that acts for the benefit of the whole which mirrors the benefit of all its individual parts. There is no hierarchy because the atom is just as important as the table it is joined to. Everything possesses the same value because in the end, everything does the exact same thing. Everything is based on a group of basic ideas and principles, and a mix-and-match process creates a wide range of possibilities that created the entire universe. And from the biggest galaxy to the smallest particle, all of these principles are serially mirrored throughout the entirety of existence.

Long story short: there is no master. There is no servant. There is fractal clockwork based on a set of principles that ensure the continuum of existence for one purpose - realization. Realization of what, exactly? Well, that's for you to decide. Forget gods. The holy trinity is a metaphor for a basic concept. Mind, Matter, Motion. An idea, a medium for that idea, the enactment of the idea.

Basic metaphysics here, folks. I just outlined the major points for you. You're welcome.

reply to post by CrypticSouthpaw

I thought i made it somewhat clear that the 4 elements wind fire water and earth all get streched apart and ripped into black energy, it pulls it into a singularity.

Can't really get into all of that since I don't believe in the building blocks of it, to start with, so could never agree with the conclusion built out of them, no matter what it might be.