Misconceptions about Christianity ;+)

Haha
Well said Cassie.

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
I find the argument that religion was created solely as a method of control to be a gross simplification & an error. That there are aspects of religion (for some religions more than others) that are specifically designed for control and even oppression, there is no doubt. But religion also provides a guidepost for many people as to how to live in an often frightening & unpredictable world. Religion has also helped provide comfort & solace for millions of sorrowful & suffering people.

Why would a set of guideline rules need to be associated with "god," if not for control purposes? Doesn't a set of rules alone guide people? Does it have to be endorsed by a god in order to be useful? Good advise is good advise, regardless of it's origin. Sure, the bible has some good points, and it also has some terrible points, depending on how you interpret them.

Of course, there are obviously some people who were born on this Earth not needing any guidance or solace or anything--these perfect individuals do not need a god or any "fanciful" speculation on the mysteries of the universe. They are completely self-sufficient, and to them the idea of religion or a system of belief is tantamount to mind-control and are obviously "crutches" that the "weak minded" depend on. I'm sure these people have never believed or followed any philosophical path or secular writer's viewpoint--because to allow themselves to be manipulated thus would also fall into the category of "mind-control" and brainwashing.

Honestly, I've never read or studied any secular writings. My decision came long before I read anything. (Except for Dirt Bike Magazine, when I was just a kid) No, I wasn't born strong. It's something I developed. The very real feeling, that no one will save you, has a tendency to make you strong.

In fact so free are they from the oppressiveness of doctrine, opinion, or outside guidance that every thought that pops into their head is totally original.

There is almost nothing original. Good luck having an original idea.

Of course, they do benefit from the unbearably oppressive rules from their society--rules like "don't kill," "don't steal from your neighbor," etc. --but is it really worth it to kow-tow to these horribly restrictive mandates that were obviously influenced by those (weak-minded) religious types with their Ten Commandments and other such chains to the spirit of the human-as-god?

These aren't rules as much as morals. Anyone can have good morals, without accepting god. You don't have to be religious to be a good person. Hurting and/or killing people is obviously disturbing to almost everyone. It doesn't take a commandment to figure that out. It does take experience, though. You have to have seen how it affects people, emotionally. Your supposed god is not what prompted that commandment. People, who know how others feel when someone dies, created that commandment.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Damned]

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
...While True Christians believe that he is "GOD"!!!
[edit on 4-11-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Son of God rather. In the same way if you had a son he'd be part of you. Or are you saying I'm not a True Christian?

True Christians believe he is GOD...and that everyone else is as well(potentially). True Christianity emphasized the idea that everyone could potentially become Christ. holy kingdom is within

[edit on 123030p://7u53 by Lucid Lunacy]

Ah, okay. You're saying I'm not a true Christian. That's what I wanted to know then, thanks for the judgement.

Lucid really knows nothing about christianity, let stand does he know what a true christian thinks.
And Damned are you kidding or did you really miss all sarcasm and point in Cassies post?

Originally posted by Damned
These aren't rules as much as morals. Anyone can have good morals, without accepting god. You don't have to be religious to be a good person. Hurting and/or killing people is obviously disturbing to almost everyone. It doesn't take a commandment to figure that out. It does take experience, though. You have to have seen how it affects people, emotionally. Your supposed god is not what prompted that commandment. People, who know how others feel when someone dies, created that commandment.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Damned]

But how are these morals decided upon? Who decides them? What are they based on? Whatever those morals are based on--is a dogma. Is a system of belief same as religion is a system of belief. Even humanism is a dogma--it's not an objective philosophy free from dogma & bias.

I just don't think that secular humanism by itself has a prayer (if you will excuse the saying) of maintaining the level of compassion & self-sacrifice necessary to deal with the hard questions & situations in life. To convince people to sublimate their sexual desires & not cheat on their wife or have sex with their lovely daughter--or to not kill their neighbor to take their grain because they're hungry--or to take care of the "useless eaters" in their community like the elderly & handicapped instead of sending them out on an ice floe to die--I just don't think a purely humanist argument is going to work, especially in places where people do not have the education or opportunities or food supply or quality of life that we enjoy.

To me what Christianity says & symbolizes so brilliantly in that simple Jesus-on-the-cross image is: He loved his neighbors so much that he made the ultimate sacrifice so they might benefit with eternal life; and if God can do this, certainly you can find it in your own heart to love your neighbor as well. The cross also is a representation & tribute to the "smaller" crosses we all bear in this world. It is a cathartic image in this sense. I don't see these as negative things. I don't see how secular humanism alone fills the void caused with the removal of religious beliefs.

Originally posted by Jakko
Lucid really knows nothing about christianity, let stand does he know what a true christian thinks.
And Damned are you kidding or did you really miss all sarcasm and point in Cassies post?

Jakko,

It's funny. I'm all about love, peace and ultimate understanding...yet for some reason I am seldom on the same wave length of fellow Christians.

The fact that you still think Christianity was not influenced by any other religion, spiritual system or holy doctrine, even after people posted on this thread for the contrary, clearly shows your ignorance on the subject.

I could elaborate further on this point, but would I be wasting my breath?

In the mean time maybe you could address the questions from my previous post, instead of avoiding it...

Look at what you said here...

"The reason that the bible talks about "son of God" is because we humans can not understand what exactly God did to create Jesus."

and then what you said here...

"Noone can become Christ. We try to follow his example, but that is something totally different than becoming Him."

You recognize we don't know, or at least when we wrote the Bible, how God created Jesus Christ. But then you say "noone can become Christ". You are contradicting yourself. Unless you now know how God created Jesus?

I would also like to point out that this thread is about the misconceptions of Christianity. So maybe you could at least give a second of your time to consider the misconceptions I, and many others, have brought to your attention. Or is that not a possibility for someone who has a true Christian mentality?


Saint4God,

Saint4God:
Quote: "Son of God rather... Are you saying I'm not a True Christian?".

Seraphim_Serpente:
This is Useless. Don't you see that you are splitting hairs? OK so you take the more Conservative Position that Jesus was simply the "Son of God".

Just browse ATS a little. Tell me how many times you see people calling themselves "Christians" EMFATICALLY Stating that "Jesus IS GOD"!!!

I second what Seraphim says.

However, I am not claiming you are not a good person nor am I saying you are not a Christian. What I am saying: Christianity, in its original form, believed we all could potentially become Christ...just as Jesus did. So that is what I meant by saying a "true" Christian...perahps it's the wrong word.


[edit on 103030p://9u08 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Look at what you said here...

"The reason that the bible talks about "son of God" is because we humans can not understand what exactly God did to create Jesus."

and then what you said here...

"Noone can become Christ. We try to follow his example, but that is something totally different than becoming Him."

You recognize we don't know, or at least when we wrote the Bible, how God created Jesus Christ. But then you say "noone can become Christ". You are contradicting yourself. Unless you now know how God created Jesus?

Okay here we go.
There is no contradiction. Even though it clear noone really knows how God seperates from Jesus, it seems quite clear to me that it is not our goal, neither possible to become christ.
The bible is very clear about this. Humans are sinfull.
No matter what they do, humans are not perfect, where christ was.
This is why we have to strive to be like Christ, but to become christ you would have to be perfect and we are simply not perfect.

I would also like to point out that this thread is about the misconceptions of Christianity. So maybe you could at least give a second of your time to consider the misconceptions I, and many others, have brought to your attention. Or is that not a possibility for someone who has a true Christian mentality?

There's really no need for ignorant comments.
I should have explained myself earyler.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

It's funny. I'm all about love, peace and ultimate understanding...yet for some reason I am seldom on the same wave length of fellow Christians.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
However, I am not claiming you are not a good person nor am I saying you are not a Christian. What I am saying: Christianity, in its original form, believed we all could potentially become Christ...just as Jesus did. So that is what I meant by saying a "true" Christian...perahps it's the wrong word.

I see what you mean now by true = original form. Clarification much appreciated, not splitting hairs just trying to understand.

So why are you creating a division? If we're in this together, then why is your viewpoint true (original) Christianity and mine false (changed) Christianity? Where is it written in the Book that Jesus is God? The theme I was getting was Jesus pointing up to God after every miracle, not to himself as the one to be worshipped. If I'm wrong, please correct.


[edit on 10-11-2004 by saint4God]

Quote: "It is the absorption of Greek and Zoroastrian material that has created a chasm between Judaism and Christianity that cannot be dismissed."

I TOTALLY AGREE! This creates a HUGE difference in Christian vs. Judaic Doctrine.

Quote: "neither possible to become Christ."

I disagree. Christ laid out a Path for us to follow. Those who follow that path are called "CHRIST-IANS". There is a TON of quotes from the New Testament were Jesus lays out the Relationship between him & his Disciples. It is my opinion that when we consume the "Body of Christ" in Mass @ Church - then go out into the World & perform Good Works/Deeds - we become a Part of Christ - Christ acts through us. Also Christ says "Were there are two of my disciples gathered - there I will be also in Spirit" (Or something like this - it is off the top of my head - help anyone).

There is a similar concept in Buddhism. The Buddha laid out of a group of teachings called the "Dharma" - those who follow & Practice the
Buddha-Dharma are referred to as "Bodhisattvas" (Buddha to be � Bodhi = Wisdom) in the Mahayana Sect & yes in the more Esoteric Sects of Buddhism (Barring Orthodox Theravada) it is Possible for a
Master Practitioner to become a Buddha!
Buddha = �Fully/Universally Awakened One�.

Quote: "Jesus pointing up to God after every miracle".

Yes you have a point. You consider yourself a Christian right? May I ask you who you believe the God that Jesus was Referring to was? Do you follow Catholicism's Trinity Doctrine (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) or do you believe that Jesus was merely just another Prophet & Worship "GOD"?


[edit on 10-11-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "neither possible to become Christ."

I disagree. Christ laid out a Path for us to follow. Those who follow that path are called "CHRIST-IANS". There is a TON of quotes from the New Testament were Jesus lays out the Relationship between him & his Disciples. It is my opinion that when we consume the "Body of Christ" in Mass @ Church - then go out into the World & perform Good Works/Deeds - we become a Part of Christ - Christ acts through us. Also Christ says "Were there are two of my disciples gathered - there I will be also in Spirit" (Or something like this - it is off the top of my head - help anyone).

Thanks for taking up this point, I can now see how some may see 'people becoming Christ' and commend your understanding of the Bible without having to quote it. Okay, yes, I can see how we can become a part of Christ figuratively speaking and in spirit. Heck, I've said and done things that I know were absolutely not me and saw some very positive things come about. Literally though I don't know how a person calling themselves a Christian can claim to be the Son of God, going through another crucifixion, sitting at the right hand of God, etc.

Quote: "Jesus pointing up to God after every miracle".

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Yes you have a point. You consider yourself a Christian right? May I ask you who you believe the God that Jesus was Referring to was? Do you follow Catholicism's Trinity Doctrine (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) or do you believe that Jesus was merely just another Prophet & Worship "GOD"?
[edit on 10-11-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Certainly. Questions always welcomed . I don't believe Jesus was just another prophet (like Jonah, Ezekiel, etc.) but I cannot say I subscribe to the Catholicism's Trinity Doctrine because I'm not sure what all that entails. As far as the trinity of what I know, there are entities that are in play at various parts of the Bible. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit with it's own works respectively. I believe they are in accord (not a Honda version ) working together but not necessarily physically since they operate in different times and places. I'm not closed to the idea however, that my idea of paranormal physics and energy is lacking so if one day I discover that their spirits can dive in an out of each other, entertwine or some such I wouldn't be surprised. I seek to understand but will not claim to know all. So, the door is open there.

As for prayer, I pray to God as instructed, and close in the name of Jesus Christ our Saviour (in acknowledgement of what he has done and taught). I know a lot of Christians wear the WWJD and Jesus-type items but I think that's to give an initial direction. One you start reading about Jesus, the more you see a model for someone who knows how to worship God.

I would also like to point out that this thread is about the misconceptions of Christianity. So maybe you could at least give a second of your time to consider the misconceptions I, and many others, have brought to your attention. Or is that not a possibility for someone who has a true Christian mentality?

There's really no need for ignorant comments.

I was merely matching yours...

Originally posted by Jakko
Lucid really knows nothing about christianity, let stand does he know what a true christian thinks.

But lets leave that to the dust and start a more productive conversation.

My stance on the subject at hand is about the path Jesus laid out for us to follow.

Originally posted by Jakko
Even though it clear noone really knows how God seperates from Jesus, it seems quite clear to me that it is not our goal, neither possible to become christ.
The bible is very clear about this. Humans are sinfull.
No matter what they do, humans are not perfect, where christ was.
This is why we have to strive to be like Christ, but to become christ you would have to be perfect and we are simply not perfect.

It seems clear to me that the opposite is true. That it is possible to become Christ(perfect)...just as Jesus did. Goal? For some of us.

You are right, the Bible is quite clear that we are sinners and therefore imperfect. As you said, this is why Jesus laid out a path for us to follow. We must strive to be like Christ to rid ourselves of sin, and therefore become more perfect.

If we were completely like Jesus Christ we would be perfect and free of sin. You already said the path is to be like Christ. So tell me why are you placing a road block on your path? You are saying you cannot become completely Christ-like...which is the same as saying becoming Christ. So are you saying you can only reach 50% of your goal, 75%? By following the path of Christ you can only succeed in mostly ridding yourself of sin? My friend, true this may be the case for most but I feel you are forgetting one very important thing:

A path has a destination.

Originally posted by Saint4God
So why are you creating a division? If we're in this together, then why is your viewpoint true (original) Christianity and mine false (changed) Christianity? Where is it written in the Book that Jesus is God?

We are in this together. It's not my intention to create a division, I feel one already exists. "True" is not a good word to use in this context, so I will use "original" from now on. I feel it is indeed written in the Bible that Jesus Christ is God and that we can become Christ...the path of a Christ-ian.

Originally posted by Saint4God
Okay, yes, I can see how we can become a part of Christ figuratively speaking and in spirit. Heck, I've said and done things that I know were absolutely not me and saw some very positive things come about. Literally though I don't know how a person calling themselves a Christian can claim to be the Son of God, going through another crucifixion, sitting at the right hand of God, etc.

...by completing the path Jesus laid out for us to follow. Perhaps no one has completed it recently and that's why it doesn't seem like a possibility? Perhaps the second coming of Christ is actually the second becoming of Christ?

I will elaborate on this further and include snipets from the Bible(including ones taken out of KJV), but I have to goto Eskrima tonight.

Also I am hoping you will respond to Seraphim_Serpente. What he is asking you is precisely what I am getting at.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

Quote: "neither possible to become Christ."

I disagree. Christ laid out a Path for us to follow. Those who follow that path are called "CHRIST-IANS". There is a TON of quotes from the New Testament were Jesus lays out the Relationship between him & his Disciples. It is my opinion that when we consume the "Body of Christ" in Mass @ Church - then go out into the World & perform Good Works/Deeds - we become a Part of Christ - Christ acts through us. Also Christ says "Were there are two of my disciples gathered - there I will be also in Spirit" (Or something like this - it is off the top of my head - help anyone).

There is a similar concept in Buddhism. The Buddha laid out of a group of teachings called the "Dharma" - those who follow & Practice the
Buddha-Dharma are referred to as "Bodhisattvas" (Buddha to be � Bodhi = Wisdom) in the Mahayana Sect & yes in the more Esoteric Sects of Buddhism (Barring Orthodox Theravada) it is Possible for a
Master Practitioner to become a Buddha!
Buddha = �Fully/Universally Awakened One�.

Quote: "Jesus pointing up to God after every miracle".

Yes you have a point. You consider yourself a Christian right? May I ask you who you believe the God that Jesus was Referring to was? Do you follow Catholicism's Trinity Doctrine (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) or do you believe that Jesus was merely just another Prophet & Worship "GOD"?

[edit on 093030p://10u30 by Lucid Lunacy]

Quote: "As you said, this is why Jesus laid out a path for us to follow. We must strive to be like Christ."

I see that you understand the Point that I am trying to make. After all - if GOD is our Creator & Jesus states that We are all the "Sons of God" - if we are Moral & Law abiding & Good in Life - are we not then also a part of Christ & God?

A lot of so-called "Christ-ians" just don't get this. They don't seem to understand that the main thing that sets Christianity apart from Judaism & Islam - is the Love & Compassion & Understanding that Jesus displayed - not only to his Followers but Amazingly enough to his Enemies Also. To be a Christian means to try & show the Same level of Love & Compassion & Understanding that Jesus did - no matter what your situation in Life or the World.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
So are you saying you can only reach 50% of your goal, 75%? By following the path of Christ you can only succeed in mostly ridding yourself of sin? My friend, true this may be the case for most but I feel you are forgetting one very important thing:

A path has a destination.

You keep on twisting my words, I did not say we should reach 50%, I said we should strive being like Jesus, meaning striving to reach 100%.

A path has a destination indeed, but Jesus had a life without sin.
Humans can not have a life without sin.
Yes our sins are forgiven, and we can always start clean, but this is something else than being perfect.

I really don't understand why you make a big deal about this, or why you fail to understand my point.
There is a difference between God and humans, between Jesus and humans. That's what makes God God.

Originally posted by Jakkobut Jesus had a life without sin.

Not true.. there's aside actual doctrine that says he went around smiting people when he was a kid and playing with his powers [he resurected them later]. I can't quote it as it was apparently edited out of the new testimant a while ago. I do remember a story however about him having a tantrume in the market place because it was a temple. He forgot to turn the other cheek and wnet a whippin. Thats okay. Everyone human and is entitled to make mistakes.

Originally posted by Damned
But religion itself was created as population control. Christianity is just a spin off.

[edit on 1-11-2004 by Damned]

People are spiritual beings. By this I mean we know there is something after this existance on earth. We continue to exist after death. Religions are man's attempt to reach up and satisfy what God demands. That's why there are so many false ones. People do not know the correct way to God and eternity so they think of up all these different ways to cover all the bases. People are on a search.

Christianity is God reaching down to man to show man the way to God and eternity through Christ.

Originally posted by dbrandt
People are spiritual beings. By this I mean we know there is something after this existance on earth. We continue to exist after death. Religions are man's attempt to reach up and satisfy what God demands. That's why there are so many false ones. People do not know the correct way to God and eternity so they think of up all these different ways to cover all the bases. People are on a search.

Christianity is God reaching down to man to show man the way to God and eternity through Christ.

No, we don't know that. We'd like to think that because our will to live is so strong, we can't comprehend not living. People fear death. Religion is man's attempt to comfort himself in the face of death.

Originally posted by Damned
No, we don't know that. We'd like to think that because our will to live is so strong, we can't comprehend not living. People fear death. Religion is man's attempt to comfort himself in the face of death.

I'm enclined to agree. There is no doubt that people 'sense' something and get fulfillment from praying but that could also be endorphines/opiates in the brain being released.. I might 'feel' 'god' [god as in energy] at times yet I wouldn't assume it is god as that may be exactly what my brain is designed to make me feel.

[edit on 11-11-2004 by riley]

Let's try to avoid reprinting the Bible and various other religiuos texts here shall we? A simple link to the verses can suffice, or a smaller part of it to get your meaning across. We're already in low bandwidth mode for days...lets not add to it!

Originally posted by riley
Not true.. there's aside actual doctrine that says he went around smiting people when he was a kid and playing with his powers [he resurected them later]. I can't quote it as it was apparently edited out of the new testimant a while ago. I do remember a story however about him having a tantrume in the market place because it was a temple. He forgot to turn the other cheek and wnet a whippin. Thats okay. Everyone human and is entitled to make mistakes.

No Riley, you're wrong.
He actually did have a life without sin.
Getting mad is not a sin per se. God got mad as well.
What weird doctrines you have heard about really doesn't make that much of a difference here.

Here you go. No one is sinnless according to the bible.

www.religioustolerance.org...