Always when the subject of christianity being derived from other religions comes up, some people feel the need to say christianity is based on judaism.

After Jesus visited the earth, judaism split up into
1. Those who believed he is the messiah (christians)
2. people who don't (followers of judaism today)

When I talk about christianity not being derived from other religions, I am not talking about judaism, because it is quite clear that judaism and christianity are the same except for that one important difference regarding jesus.

Understand?

The argument that Judaism and Christianity are the same religion is a spurious one. There are several core differences that make it impossible for a serious scholar to view the two as one religion. While there are similarities, the eschatologies diverge quite radically beyond the superficial level.

Jesus does not fulfill the requirements of Messiah according to Judaism, for the Messiah is expected to defeat Judaism's enemies and restore the nation of Israel. Jesus did not do that. Christianity then took the role of Messiah even further, turning the militaristic role into a spiritual one via "being saved by grace". This is not a concept found in Judaism, as people are either good or bad according to their nature and will achieve salvation through their own acts and observances of the Torah. Along with this comes the parts about Satan and Hell (both quite far from the Jewish conception of the afterlife), as well as the concepts of resurrection and the rapture which are alien to Judaism. Further, if Judaism and Christianity are "the same religion", then why is it that only Christians will benefit from the Rapture, while according to Judaism, the world will be destroyed except for Israel?

It is the absorption of Greek and Zoroastrian material that has created a chasm between Judaism and Christianity that cannot be dismissed. In the beginning, yes, early Christians were Jews who awaited the return of Jesus in his role as the Jewish Messiah. They observed Jewish rituals, holidays and customs. But once Paul entered the picture, the schism was complete. Judaism and Christianity became two separate religions. The Messiah was no longer a man, transformed into a being with the powers and attributes of a deity. No matter how revered Moses, Kings David & Solomon and are to the Jews, they are still regarded as men. The Messiah awaited by the Jews is a man, and even though he is to be the blessed of God, he will remain a flesh-and-blood, Jewish man. God is God, and man is man. Christianity blurs this distinction in a way unacceptable to Jewish religious thought.

Another way in which Christianity and Judaism differ radically is with regards to dogma. The Torah covers the first five books of the O.T. But in Judaism there is also the Mishnah, Talmud, the Midrash, and other works that are an essential part of the Jewish religion. The hostility exhibited by Jesus in the N.T. towards the Pharisees stems from the latter's observance of the Mishnah (early Talmud). So from the start, there is a division between the religion of Jesus' followes and that of the Jews. Later developments in both religions widened the gap, to the extent that Maimonides in the Mishnah Torah condemns Christians as wicked people heading "to the pit of destruction". On the other side, Christians feel that none of the observances so crucial to Judaism are necessary due to the death of Jesus on the cross, and view the Jews as being in error and doomed to damnation.

This is only scratching the surface. There is a plethora of fundamental concepts that differentiate between the two religions, and when looked at altogether, they show two bodies of religious thought diametrically opposed to one another. In the end game prophesized by both, each claims an assured victory and destruction for the other, and this alone should negate any illusion that they are one and the same.

While I do not question your faith, Jakko, I do question your scholarship. Do you also maintain that Christianity and Islam are the same religion?

If you want to continue persuing the origins of christianity and its originality we have little reliable evidence available for research.

The origins of Christianity was a minor statement pointed out on your initial post I had reason to believe that this thread was for us to debate whether or not this 'bashing' christianity buisiness was justified.....i may be misunderstood.

I notice that you didnt reply to any of my arguments- does this mean you agree with me?....probably not. i assume that you have had little time available for debate on these matters. When you have some time i would appreciate if you would discuss some of the points i raised, this is as much a learning experience for me as it is for you. thankyou - JoeyC

Originally posted by Hecate100Jesus does not fulfill the requirements of Messiah according to Judaism, for the Messiah is expected to defeat Judaism's enemies and restore the nation of Israel.

I could argue with you about why I think the Messiah did defeat Judaism enemies, them being sin and the huge gap between humans in God in general, but this topic is not really about wether or not I agree with judaism's motivation not to see Jesus as the messiah, but wether or not judaism and christianity borrowed their concepts from other religions.

Christianity then took the role of Messiah even further, turning the militaristic role into a spiritual one via "being saved by grace". This is not a concept found in Judaism, as people are either good or bad according to their nature and will achieve salvation through their own acts and observances of the Torah.

I am aware of all these concepts, but as God was never predictable in the Torah, I find it strange that jews find it so hard to adjust to the way Jesus expressed his role as Messiah. People expected someone more militaristic yes, but doesn't it fit Gods unpredictable paths better to show humanity that the ultimate battle is not fought through violence, but through sacrafice.

Further, if Judaism and Christianity are "the same religion", then why is it that only Christians will benefit from the Rapture, while according to Judaism, the world will be destroyed except for Israel?

It's the way you explain these texts to yourself, that give the answer to this one. The world being destroyed except for Israel, can actually mean a number of things. The concept "the world" is actually used in a lot of ways in the bible, and they are not always the same.
This goes for Israel as well. This is not about locations being destroyed or not, this is about people.

The Messiah was no longer a man, transformed into a being with the powers and attributes of a deity. No matter how revered Moses, Kings David & Solomon and are to the Jews, they are still regarded as men. The Messiah awaited by the Jews is a man, and even though he is to be the blessed of God, he will remain a flesh-and-blood, Jewish man. God is God, and man is man. Christianity blurs this distinction in a way unacceptable to Jewish religious thought.

Unacceptable in what way?
I am aware of the fact that Judaism explains the "God is God" verse in a way that makes it impossible for a human to be God as well, but again, this is just one way to explain this verse.
An on first sight simple line like "God is God" could mean so many different things if you think about it, that dismissing Jesus as a son of God based on this line seems rather far-fetched to me.

The hostility exhibited by Jesus in the N.T. towards the Pharisees stems from the latter's observance of the Mishnah (early Talmud). So from the start, there is a division between the religion of Jesus' followes and that of the Jews.

You are mixing something up here.
Jesus was never hostile towards the pharisees, but the pharisees on the other hand, were quite hostile and even vicious towards him.
Jesus never attacked or questioned the pharisees, yet the pharisees questioned and attacked Jesus and eventually make the death of Jesus possible.

Later developments in both religions widened the gap, to the extent that Maimonides in the Mishnah Torah condemns Christians as wicked people heading "to the pit of destruction". On the other side, Christians feel that none of the observances so crucial to Judaism are necessary due to the death of Jesus on the cross, and view the Jews as being in error and doomed to damnation.

I can not speak for all christians, but what I have seen and heard around me in the christian world, is not in sync with what you say.
From the beginning God has shown that jews and the people of Israel are special to Him. Wether or not those that follow judaism believe that Jesus is the son of God or not, I am quite sure that God has special plans with these people.
In general it is utterly wrong to claim anyone is doomed to damnation. We, as christians simply to not contain Gods wisdom and can not predict Him in any way. If you ask me, christians will meet a load of people in heaven they did not expect there.

In the end game prophesized by both, each claims an assured victory and destruction for the other, and this alone should negate any illusion that they are one and the same.

As you said, these religions started as the same religion. Then a difference in opinion regarding Jesus Christ seperated the religion and as time passed the differences between the two religions grew bigger.
My intention was not to claim they are one and the same, but they did start out the same, and the differences are only based on those events surrounding that one man, Jesus Christ.

While I do not question your faith, Jakko, I do question your scholarship. Do you also maintain that Christianity and Islam are the same religion?

I am here to learn, and I do learn every day.
And no Christianity and Islam are not the same.

But I am not sure yet. Still trying to form a well-motivated theory on what exactly the Islam is, and why/how it came to be.
It's a very interesting concept, the way the Islam copies parts of the OT, and the effects that the Islam has on todays world.
It makes me suspect the Islam is "more" than just a bad copy of judaism/christianity.

[edit on 2-11-2004 by Jakko]

Originally posted by JoeyC
Anything that tells you how to think is brainwashing. all religions tell you what is considered right and wrong- they all tell you how you should think. I dont need to be told that killing someone is wrong and i dont need to be told how to live my life- that is mental slavery. I dont want people to be slaves i want them to be free.

I disagree a lot. ;+)
All rules in christianity come down to these 3 mainrules.
1. Do not damage other people.
2. Do not damage yourself.
3. Do not damage God.

Because these three rules were much too general for the average human being to convert to a "good" lifestyle, the NT contains a lot of additional rules. This is not done to make people slaves, neither does it make people slaves. It is to give humans a guide, to how a perfect (more or less) world could be achieved.
If everyone would follow the biblish "don't do to someone else what you don't want other to do to you" this world would probably look a lot nicer.
Freedom is important, and God gives us enormous freedom. The freedom to make the most horrible mistakes. This guide that is the bible is our guide to getting our lives on track after learning from our mistakes, and has nothing to do with mental slavery in any way.
God gave us brains, and we are supposed to think and to form our own opinions. Noone tells you how to think.

And what research have you done into the history and creation of the bible?? none i bet. Do you just believe what your church/priest/school told you or was it plain good faith?......Your response to Damned about contradictions in the bible shows that you have not read the bible or have not understood it.

You bet wrong. I do not believe what any priest/church/school tells me, because I think God gave me brains for a reason.
A lot of people made it their hobby to find contradictions in the bible and slam christians with them. I have seen too many of those kind of arguments before, and I have not seen one where the christian-slammer had a good point.
The problem is usually that people do not understand the bible.
The bible is quite a unique book.
The mixture of a guide, historybook, a rulebook and ancient poetry (among other thing) is hard to fully understand at first sight.
God tells us not to kill, yet the OT speaks about several wars in which thousands got killed...
That kind of things seem contradictions at first sight, but as I said we have brains, and having brains is all it takes to dig deeper and see how those specific parts are ment.
Some will probably say "the silly christian can twist every contradiction so it's no longer a contradiction in his eyes".
This argument can also be used at those throwing the contradictions at christians. There are so many ways to look at things, and todays times and cultures are so different from how it was back then, you can not base a few quick assumptions on the few lines that you have read.

Christianity trashes human virtues, is mysogynistic, homophobic, creates unneccassary divisions in society, is responsible for the brainwashing and subsequent deaths of thousands of 'martyrs'.

You're wrong. Christianity does not trash human virtues (in fact it contains the most essential human virtues), is not homophobic ( www.godmademegay.com ) and is not responsible for any brainwashing or death.
Humans and their often lacking interpretations of the bible are responsable for some of the bad things you named, and as I allready pointed out, I can not even try to begin to explain why some twisted figures did the horrible things they did in the name of my God.
It makes them even more wrong in my opinion.

please understand that i am not at all angry at you or being prejudiced towards you when making these statements because my reasons are based on evidence and logic. I can give further detail to support my arguments if neccessary. thankyou and respect-JoeyC

Oh I know ;+) you do not sound angry.
And I am not angry either.
I am actually very glad you say all these things to me, because it makes me understand some of the confusion there is regarding christianity.
What some "so called christians" did to christianity by their horrible actions in the name of God should not be forgotten or excused, but dismissing a God that loves you because you have only seen a small piece of the picture is more than a pity.

[edit on 2-11-2004 by Jakko]

Thanks Jakko you made some good arguments

God gave us brains, and we are supposed to think and to form our own opinions. Noone tells you how to think.

By taking a Christian viewpoint you can easily become biased until it becomes second nature. Your mind will be fixed with second hand notions and Christian morals and these cloud a persons power of critical thought and reason. Christianity ultimately ends up doing your thinking for you, you will base important decisions first from a Christian viewpoint and second (or not at all) from YOUR viewpoint of reason.

Ultimately i see Christianity as a dangerous pacifier of the human will to resist persectution with notions such as 'if you are struck, turn the other cheek' and 'the meek will inherit the Earth'- sounds to me like Jesus is saying look just put up with it, you'l get what you deserve when your dead as long as you just shut up.

This argument can also be used at those throwing the contradictions at christians. There are so many ways to look at things, and todays times and cultures are so different from how it was back then, you can not base a few quick assumptions on the few lines that you have read.

Because I am opposing Christianity you assume i know nothing about it? I was a Christian for 14 years I have read and understood the bible. It does contain many contradictions, that is a black and white fact that cant be denied.

You're wrong. Christianity does not trash human virtues

It does trash human virtue, nature and morals when your mind is overwritten with Christian morals and does your thinking for you- even if you havent realised it yet.

is not homophobic

Then why doesn't the Christian church marry gay men? In my Religion book that I studied at G.C.S.E. said that homosexuality is recognised as a sickness that can be cured through prayer. Homosexuality cannot be cured by prayer it is human nature, if you are gay that is who you are. A gay person cannot help it if they believe that having intercourse with a member of the opposite sex is disgusting ergo they cannot help being gay.

I looked at the webpage that you provided and it is about a christian doing the right thing and helping a gay friend not feel sinful and telling them that you are who you are. However it seems that this way the unchristian thing to do. The christian thing to do would have been to tell them that being gay IS in fact a sin. I typed in 'christian teaching on homosexuality' into google and all the result pages told me christian belief was that homosexuality is wrong, homosexuals ARE persecuted by christians.

and is not responsible for any brainwashing or death

Not responsible for any death..........can you really say you believe that?

Thousands of Christians have died as martyrs for this their faith

The holy war of the crusades was plain genocide

respect- JoeyC


edit- spelling, punctuation, clarity


[edit on 2-11-2004 by JoeyC]

Originally posted by JoeyC
By taking a Christian viewpoint you can easily become biased until it becomes second nature. Your mind will be fixed with second hand notions and Christian morals and these cloud a persons power of critical thought and reason.

Now truly, the morals you talk about, that I explained through the 3 basic rules of christianity. Are they that bad?
Wouldn't I be right if I said, that such morals should allready be "implemented" in everyone? Or that one should really not need a bible to understand the importance of christian values?

Christianity ultimately ends up doing your thinking for you, you will base important decisions first from a Christian viewpoint and second (or not at all) from YOUR viewpoint of reason.

This is the case for *some* christians probably.
It is true that, when I have a relationship with God, I will ask Him questions and seek His guidance when I am about to make big choices in my life, but it's not that or my own choice.
I believe that God puts choices and desires in our hearts, and that some of the things we want are actually also the things God wants for us.
I can assure you that there is no "easy christian answer" to every single question and that christians did not stop thinking even though they communicate with the creator of the universe.

Ultimately i see Christianity as a dangerous pacifier of the human will to resist persectution with notions such as 'if you are struck, turn the other cheek' and 'the meek will inherit the Earth'- sounds to me like Jesus is saying look just put up with it, you'l get what you deserve when your dead as long as you just shut up.

No not at all. The verse you quote here is not about what your reward is in heaven. It is about what your reward is on earth.
This part is probably the most mysterious and strange thing about Christianity.
The hardest thing and the most powerfull thing to do, always has to do with choosing the positive side, even when you are confronted with negativity.

Jesus was powerfull and could have ordered 5000 angels to kill every single "hostile", yelling "crucify him", but He didn't.
The jews following Him, did not understand this. They expected Jesus to conquer over his enemies with violence and pure power.
The message God gave through this history is that Jesus did fight the most important battle ever, and that he did conquer the enemy. But the enemies were not humans, the enemies were human sins. And the fighting was not through violence, but through a grace that goes beyond our imagination.

You are not supposed to shut up. Did Jesus shut up?
No He didn't and it got Him killed, but in the end His death led to our sins being paid for.

Because I am opposing Christianity you assume i know nothing about it? I was a Christian for 14 years I have read and understood the bible. It does contain many contradictions, that is a black and white fact that cant be denied.

I have yet to see the first contradiction that really convinces me of there being contradictions in the bible. And believe me I have seen a load.
This is not about who can find or debunk the most contradictions though, but I still think you or anyone is able to find out why something is not a contradiction.

It does trash human virtue, nature and morals when your mind is overwritten with Christian morals and does your thinking for you- even if you havent realised it yet.

Once again, the christian morals are not wrong, neither is your mind being overwritten with anything if you agree with the christian morals.

I looked at the webpage that you provided and it is about a christian doing the right thing and helping a gay friend not feel sinful and telling them that you are who you are. However it seems that this way the unchristian thing to do. The christian thing to do would have been to tell them that being gay IS in fact a sin. I typed in 'christian teaching on homosexuality' into google and all the result pages told me christian belief was that homosexuality is wrong, homosexuals ARE persecuted by christians.

It's not about a christian doing the right thing.
Read the "letter to Louise" and you may understand.
It's about a renewed way of thinking about homosexuals in the christian world, that's being recognised by more and more churches every day.
And yes I know a lot of christians are still wrong in this area, but that does not mean christianity is.
This way of thinking perfectly explains how the bible should be read when brainstorming about this subject. It explains verses about homosexuality and offers an answer to the many questions and fears that homosexual christians today have.

Not responsible for any death..........can you really say you believe that?

Thousands of Christians have died as martyrs for this their faith

The holy war of the crusades was plain genocide
[edit on 2-11-2004 by JoeyC]

Yep, remember christians did that, not christianity.
I will not deny that many christians have been wrong in the past and that lots of horrible things happened in the name of God.
But I know that noone can deny the clearness of the example God gave us through Jesus. One look at the NT and you know just how wrong these people, doing that things in the name of God, have been.
They were clearly not acting out of their christianity, they were acting out of their ignorance, fear and most of all hunger for power, control and money.

[edit on 2-11-2004 by Jakko]

[edit on 3-11-2004 by Jakko]

Uh, guys, let's bring some Authority into this discussion.

Three writers in Scripture talked about the obligations of Christians:

Christ at Matt 5:16-21

John at 1John 5:3

James in his book.

The fact that Jews have taken off on their own initiatives, via the Talmud, etc., is simply typical for human behavior. They were not content to stay with the Law as it was.

The fact that Christians have taken off on Paul's initiatives, via the Epistles, etc., is simply typical for human behavior. Christians were not content to stay with Jesus' teachings about: Truth's causing problems in the political domain ["give to Caesar what is Caesar's"]; Truth's causing problems in the family ["I came not for peace but to produce discord."]; disunity being the rule rather than the exception ["A man's enemies will be in his own house."]; lifestyle being the true measuring rod for Justice rather than Thought Controls. ["good fruit" versus "bad fruit"; "generosity" vs. elitism in Matt 25.]

Due to the influence of Paul, Christians tend to make fun of the whole function and rule of Law, top-to-bottom. They believe any action or effect can be covered by "repentance and prayer."

Tell that to the Iraqis, the Afghans, the Vietnamese and about 197 other nations in which the "Christian" nation called the USA has intervened in their public affairs.

No, a nation which USES Christianity to dominate other nations is merely a nation that behaves by DOMINATING.

Jesus was not a dominator; he was pacific, calm and positive that people could govern themselves, FROM WITHIN, not merely FROM WITHOUT or TOP-DOWN, as is the case with the New World Order.

Imposing top-down laws on people is what God does because He lives long enough to see effects of Law.

When humans try to do that, their short-term vision is so colored by correlations [rather than causations], they do a very poor job of governing.

And that is the continual story from the time of Yeshua Ben Joseph until now. His way of governing in the world, by shunning Evil and not reacting to it, still has not even been tried politically, socially or culturally, in most of the inhabited world.

Maybe someday, we'll get around to living a civilized life, eh?

1. Christianity was not created for population-control/brainwashing/worldorders etc.
When Christianity grew after Jesus departure, leaders of the world were afraid of this new "movement" and a lot of countries forbid the Christian religion. Today some countries still forbid Christianity.

ALL religion is created for control. Christianity is NO different. If you're looking for an example, it's right in the first book of Genesis, when God forbade Adam and Eve from the Tree of Knowledge (forget that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil spin, it was added later), and that knowledge should come ONLY from God (i.e. the Church).

2. The bible was not created by "a few smart old men".
Any research into the history and creation of the bible and the history as presented in the bible leads to the inevitable conclusion that bible must have been written by a lot of people over a huge period of time.
There is no conspiracy.

I'll agree there is no conspiracy here, but it doesn't change the Church's motive of control. Of course the Bible was written by many, the books are even named after them! (Job, Luke, Matthew, etc. etc.) However, the TRUE conspiracy is in what makes up the MODERN bible. Books and scrolls were selectively added, taken away, etc., most recently by those agents of King James (who is the model for most modern pics of Jesus as well), to fit his agendas.

3. What people who call themselves Christians do wrong, can not be used as an excuse to bash Christianity.
Yes a lot of horrible things happened in the past, some of it was done by people who said they were doing in the name of the Christian God.
One must realize that the bible is clear enough about violence and condemning through the example of Jesus, people who violated the rules of God in the name of God were really doing it in the name of their own agenda. Christianity did not cause any harm, humans did.

This is so. However, the CHURCH itself is guilty of many of those attrocities, as are those within the Church, and for covering them up, and so yes, it is fair to place the blame upon the head of the Church. (the Inquisition, the Crusades, the current molestation charges, etc.)

4. Christianity is not based off, inspired by or derived from any other religion in existance.
Some people like to yell around Christianity "borrowed" some concepts from other religions like paganism.
Truth is that the concepts of Christianity are documented throughout history, and that since Christianity is not some fictional storyline (point 2) it can't be based off of any other religion. (www.comereason.com)

Perhaps you're forgetting that Jesus was a Rabbi? Christianity is of course based off of Judaism. And yes, later Christians DID adopt certain Pagan rituals into Church services, in order to attract more followers....as well as drop some of the older Judaic restrictions it once had in place.

5. Christians are not perfect, neither are they "better" than nonchristians.
Do not let anyone tell you you are going to hell. Christians do not know these kind of things, only God does.
Also don't think of christians as hypocrits just because they do the same things wrong as everyone else. Christians are just like normal people, with the same struggles, problems, fears and mistakes.

Your own book states that those who do not believe in Jesus will go to Hell....PERIOD. Revelation tells of 144,000 who will be saved, and that these are "better" than the rest of men. ALL those who follow a faith promising salvation ONLY to it's followers AUTOMATICALLY believe they are better than non-followers...it's as simple as that really.

6. Last, today there are a lot of groups that use the bible, Jesus or related concepts to promote their own ideas.
Mormons, KKK, Jehovas, most of todays cults, all share the fact that they are somehow related to Christianity. Fact is that they twisted christianity to match their own agenda and that these religions are no longer about the core elements of Christianity; grace, love and a God sacrificing himself to restore an ancient inbalance of sin.

True, and Christianity is not alone in this...Islam is also warped by many to fit their agendas as well.

Quote: "That's why we have a Christian president who is pro-war? Not to mention all the Christians who support the bastard. Humans who believed in "god" caused the harm. Superstition (Religious Dogma) caused the harm (yeah like 9/11)."

About time somebody had the guts to point this out! Incredible but True! Hopefully Bush will not be Pres for much longer!!!

Quote: "What Christians call the "Old Testament" is a rather creatively (i.e. Inaccurately) (Mis)translated version of the Torah.

More accurately, the Old Testament is derived from the Tanakh (which includes the Torah, Prophets and Scrolls), but accuracy doesn't describe any Bible translation I have seen -- they deviate radically from the more literal and accurate Hebrew favored by and read in synagogue by Jews."

How is it that there are so many people that call themselves "Christians" in America that don't even seem to Realize this obvious Connection? Ah an even Better reason to through the Book & the Religion(s) out of the Window once & for all!!! It has No Relevance in Modern Society. We can teach children good Morals with out going into stories about Noah's Arc & other Fables like it!!!

Generalizing about Christians, or Jews, or Muslims is a useless exercise.

"You will know a [EACH INDIVIDUAL] tree by its fruit: you cannot get rotten fruit off a good tree nor good fruit off a rotten tree."

There are "sheep" and "goats" in every church. There are "wheat" and "tares" in every denomonation. There are "wolves" and "lambs" in every faith.

All mankind practice what is harmful, unsafe and "inappropriate." They ALSO practice kindness, charity and mercy. So we are all--as a human race--both good and bad. And every single institution on the planet reflects this dichotomy.

So, stop being surprised that this is so. And stop generalizing about Christian or Jewish or Muslim behavior.

God deals with individuals, to judge behavior by His Law, a copy of which is at www.abidemiracles.com/2728.htm

Jesus dealt with individuals, to the dismay of some of the Jews of His day, who would have preferred that He kept to the generalizations and rules-of-thumb of their very own Talmud [even if it did contradict the principles of Justice in the Pentatuch itself].

We have to deal with individuals. We have to deal with book-covers ( a person's outward behavior ), not with Thought Controls, hate-crime legislation, academic grant-twisting, and educational top-down rule-bound tyranny over our children.

Our children will never learn to think if all we give them to consider are generalizations about behaviors of group. No, each child and each of us must have experience with disputes and conflicts such that we learn how to set limits and boundaries, uphold what works for us, and keep the necessary distance from what doesn't work for us.

Shunning is what the first century Christians DID when one of their number got involved in un-law-full behavior. That's always an option so long as our society remains a mobile society.

But, with the propagation of laws restricting movement, what happens next is that one conflict after another will merely detonate; and chaos will win in the end.

But, we asked for it. We remained blind and complacent since JFK's murder until now; and we have allowed our Gummint to be taken over by predatory industrialists that Ike warned us against in January 1961.

We have this coming, for watching TV instead of staying with the real world.

Originally posted by Jakko
pilot, keep your ignorant statements for yourself if you are unable to give them thought okay?
.

Woah woah waoh, Jakko that was way out of line. Regardless of bias, there was nothing ignorant about his statement.

Originally posted by Jakko


Jesus was powerfull and could have ordered 5000 angels to kill every single jew[edit on 2-11-2004 by Jakko]

Haha, that's the funniest thing I've heard today. I can't stop laughing!

Jesus was powerfull and could have ordered 5000 angels to kill every single jew

Sweet. I feel better about voting Jesus for President now.


Hey Jakko have you changed your stance on wether Christianity was influenced by other religions and spiritual systems? Based on all the input you have been given. I told you I would go into more detail on this and I will...that is, if you're interested.

Originally posted by iceofspades
Woah woah waoh, Jakko that was way out of line. Regardless of bias, there was nothing ignorant about his statement.

If I am honest I think his post was dumb.
After explaining how many times (?) why the actions of people who call themselves christians can not be used to say something generalising about christians, he comes with that kind of posts...

Quote: "Jesus was powerful and could have Ordered 5000 Angels to KILL Every Single Jew".

Yes - this was a Truly Idiotic statement Indeed!!! You just succeeded in Making Jesus sound like Hitler & Angels behave like Nazi Murderers. How Deranged! Honestly - when will this Stupidity end? Why does everyone try to put words into Jesus’ Mouth (Yes even the Churches do it)? The Man lived *2000 Years* ago! The best thing that we can do is to be Compassionate & Understanding like he Truly Suggested - it is not that complicated!

I still believe in the gods of greek mythology - does that make me less of a person or grant me a V.I.P pass to hell?

Popular beliefs will come and go as time goes on. Just have faith in something and not care what other stereotypical or indecent people have to say about it.

Why should it matter 'if' something is wrong with another person's belief, does it make you guys angry they (the christians) don't believe in what you believe in? And, if it does, why?

There are no facts just play it smart.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

Yes - this was a Truly Idiotic statement Indeed!!! You just succeeded in Making Jesus sound like Hitler & Angels behave like Nazi Murderers.

If that is the case you truly fail to understand what I am saying.
I should probably edit that part, as it's quite obvious it were jews.
Jesus supporters were jews as well.

Originally posted by Jakko


If that is the case you truly fail to understand what I am saying.
I should probably edit that part, as it's quite obvious it were jews.
Jesus supporters were jews as well.

...I...really don't think that's the funny part.

Quote: "as it's quite obvious it was Jews. Jesus supporters were Jews as well."

What you mean - I assume - is that it was the "Jews" (BTW try not to get Race & Religion mixed up people - two entirely separate things) that screamed "Crucify Him" - because he supposedly committed "Heresy/Blasphemy". Personally I don't buy that reason - I think it was done for Political & Theological Rivalry Reasons. Anyhow Jesus did have both "Jewish" & "Pagan" supporters. After his death it sort of kind of melded together into a Religion centered around him - his "Church".

That is if Jesus was indeed an actual real life person. I believe he was. But I also believe that a lot of the "Powers" that were associated with his life were lifted from Various "Pagan Mythologies". So in that case "Jesus" ALSO = Dionysus - Osiris - Horus - Mithras - Hercules - Apollo - Krishna -
Sol Inviticus & More!!!

See the Greco-Roman-Egyptian-Persian-Oriental Connection - I believe that it is quite Blaring. THIS is the reason that **Orthodox Jews** can't stand
Jesus Christ - they think that he is a False Idol/Prophet!!! While True Christians believe that he is "GOD"!!!


[edit on 4-11-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 4-11-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]