Lately I have been reading more and more generalising posts regarding Christianity, so I thought it would be nice to deal with some confusion once and for all.

1. Christianity was not created for population-control/brainwashing/worldorders etc.
When Christianity grew after Jesus departure, leaders of the world were afraid of this new "movement" and a lot of countries forbid the Christian religion. Today some countries still forbid Christianity.

2. The bible was not created by "a few smart old men".
Any research into the history and creation of the bible and the history as presented in the bible leads to the inevitable conclusion that bible must have been written by a lot of people over a huge period of time.
There is no conspiracy.

3. What people who call themselves Christians do wrong, can not be used as an excuse to bash Christianity.
Yes a lot of horrible things happened in the past, some of it was done by people who said they were doing in the name of the Christian God.
One must realize that the bible is clear enough about violence and condemning through the example of Jesus, people who violated the rules of God in the name of God were really doing it in the name of their own agenda. Christianity did not cause any harm, humans did.

4. Christianity is not based off, inspired by or derived from any other religion in existance.
Some people like to yell around Christianity "borrowed" some concepts from other religions like paganism.
Truth is that the concepts of Christianity are documented throughout history, and that since Christianity is not some fictional storyline (point 2) it can't be based off of any other religion. (www.comereason.com)

5. Christians are not perfect, neither are they "better" than nonchristians.
Do not let anyone tell you you are going to hell. Christians do not know these kind of things, only God does.
Also don't think of christians as hypocrits just because they do the same things wrong as everyone else. Christians are just like normal people, with the same struggles, problems, fears and mistakes.

6. Last, today there are a lot of groups that use the bible, Jesus or related concepts to promote their own ideas.
Mormons, KKK, Jehovas, most of todays cults, all share the fact that they are somehow related to Christianity. Fact is that they twisted christianity to match their own agenda and that these religions are no longer about the core elements of Christianity; grace, love and a God sacrificing himself to restore an ancient inbalance of sin.

I hope this makes some things more clear, and if there are any questions regarding Christianity feel free to ask those in here.

[edit on 1-11-2004 by Jakko]

Originally posted by Jakko
1. Christianity was not created for population-control/brainwashing/worldorders etc.
When Christianity grew after Jesus departure, leaders of the world were afraid of this new "movement" and a lot of countries forbid the Christian religion. Today some countries still forbid Christianity.

But religion itself was created as population control. Christianity is just a spin off.

2. The bible was not created by "a few smart old men".
Any research into the history and creation of the bible and the history as presented in the bible leads to the inevitable conclusion that bible must have been written by a lot of people over a huge period of time.
There is no conspiracy.

I never said there was, but the mere fact that it was written by many people makes it even less credible, not more.

3. What people who call themselves Christians do wrong, can not be used as an excuse to bash Christianity.
Yes a lot of horrible things happened in the past, some of it was done by people who said they were doing in the name of the Christian God.
One must realize that the bible is clear enough about violence and condemning through the example of Jesus, people who violated the rules of God in the name of God were really doing it in the name of their own agenda. Christianity did not cause any harm, humans did.

That's why we have a christian president who is pro-war? Not to mention all the christians who support the bastard. Humans who believed in "god" caused the harm. Superstition caused the harm.

4. Christianity is not based off, inspired by or derived from any other religion in existance.

You'd better do some studying here. Christianity is a meddley of a few religions. It's definitely a spin-off. Of the thousands of sects making up "Christendom", no two agree entirely.

5. Christians are not perfect, neither are they "better" than nonchristians.

They only think so, apparently.

Do not let anyone tell you you are going to hell. Christians do not know these kind of things, only God does.

How do you suggest I stop them?

Also don't think of christians as hypocrits just because they do the same things wrong as everyone else. Christians are just like normal people, with the same struggles, problems, fears and mistakes.

I disagree. They have many more fears and mistakes, and they're destined to repeat them forever.

6. Last, today there are a lot of groups that use the bible, Jesus or related concepts to promote their own ideas.
Mormons, KKK, Jehovas, most of todays cults, all share the fact that they are somehow related to Christianity. Fact is that they twisted christianity to match their own agenda and that these religions are no longer about the core elements of Christianity; grace, love and a God sacrificing himself to restore an ancient inbalance of sin.

Fact is, christianity is not the original religion, and you didn't just make it up. You stole parts of other religions you liked, and created one of your own. And still, you don't have one christian religion...you have several. The only misconceptions about christianity, are yours.

[edit on 1-11-2004 by Damned]

For an open-minded society, I noticed this site is quick to stereotype Christians for the reasons you've listed above.

Originally posted by Damned
But religion itself was created as population control. Christianity is just a spin off.

You're wrong.
Peoples reasons to create religion were everything but population control, and those reasons do not even apply on Christianity.

I never said there was, but the mere fact that it was written by many people makes it even less credible, not more.

I disagree. If you look at, and read the bible in its context, you will find that there are no contradictions in it. That together with the fact that the bible was written over such a huge amount of time, and by so many people, shows me that the bible is the true word of God.

That's why we have a christian president who is pro-war? Not to mention all the christians who support the bastard. Humans who believed in "god" caused the harm. Superstition caused the harm.

As I allready explained (and this is the last time I will explain it) people who call themselves christians are not automaticly rolemodels.
I do not like Bush at all. He says he is christian, but I ama christian and I know that what he does has not much to do with christianity.

You'd better do some studying here. Christianity is a meddley of a few religions. It's definitely a spin-off. Of the thousands of sects making up "Christendom", no two agree entirely.

You're utterly wrong.
I do not know how you got this into your head, but christianity in the core is unchanged over the years. The way people choose to do their services is something else, but it's the same religion.
I suggest you read www.comereason.com and find out why you're wrong.

They only think so, apparently.

I don't, I can not speak for the entire christian world, neither can I take away your ignorant prejudices by myself.

How do you suggest I stop them?

You do not have to stop them. Just realize that the christians who say this, are making a big mistake. God does not want humans to say that kind of things to eachother.

I disagree. They have many more fears and mistakes, and they're destined to repeat them forever.

Are you serious? What kind of dumb thing to say is this?
You seem to have a pretty unnuanced opinion about christianity, and so far I have not seen you motivate anything either.
Does this have something to do with your context? Your youth?

Fact is, christianity is not the original religion, and you didn't just make it up. You stole parts of other religions you liked, and created one of your own. And still, you don't have one christian religion...you have several. The only misconceptions about christianity, are yours.
[edit on 1-11-2004 by Damned]

Comments like these make me angry.
The truth is quite easy to find, yet you insist on rambling on and spreading lies and ignorance.
Stole parts of other religions you liked, where's your motivation?
Read www.comereason.com and reply to that, instead of yelling around your onmotivated stupidity.

[edit on 1-11-2004 by Jakko]

Originally posted by Jakko
I disagree. If you look at, and read the bible in its context, you will find that there are no contradictions in it. That together with the fact that the bible was written over such a huge amount of time, and by so many people, shows me that the bible is the true word of God.

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!! Sorry, I can't stop laughing.

End of discussion. There's no need to continue after that statement.

Hello Jacko, I appreciate your concern for the poor Christians however i disagreed with many of your arguments.

1. Christianity was not created for population-control/brainwashing/worldorders etc.
When Christianity grew after Jesus departure, leaders of the world were afraid of this new "movement" and a lot of countries forbid the Christian religion. Today some countries still forbid Christianity.

Anything that tells you how to think is brainwashing. all religions tell you what is considered right and wrong- they all tell you how you should think. I dont need to be told that killing someone is wrong and i dont need to be told how to live my life- that is mental slavery. I dont want people to be slaves i want them to be free.

2. The bible was not created by "a few smart old men".
Any research into the history and creation of the bible and the history as presented in the bible leads to the inevitable conclusion that bible must have been written by a lot of people over a huge period of time.
There is no conspiracy.

And what research have you done into the history and creation of the bible?? none i bet. Do you just believe what your church/priest/school told you or was it plain good faith?......Your response to Damned about contradictions in the bible shows that you have not read the bible or have not understood it.

Christianity did not cause any harm, humans did

Christianity trashes human virtues, is mysogynistic, homophobic, creates unneccassary divisions in society, is responsible for the brainwashing and subsequent deaths of thousands of 'martyrs'.

please understand that i am not at all angry at you or being prejudiced towards you when making these statements because my reasons are based on evidence and logic. I can give further detail to support my arguments if neccessary. thankyou and respect-JoeyC

Ok, here is a try to resonably reply to the initial post, no flaming.

1. Christianity was not created for population-control/brainwashing/worldorders etc.

I agree with that. Christianity was originaly created to follow the words and deeds of Jesus. While in the course of history many have used Christianity to further their own goals (population control being one of them), the religion itself was not created for that purpose.

2. The bible was not created by "a few smart old men".

I agree with that too. If by Bible you mean both old and new testament, then yes, indeed, it was created in the course of many centuries both as a religious and history book. Its divine inspiration is, of course, debatable.

3. What people who call themselves Christians do wrong, can not be used as an excuse to bash Christianity.

I'd say that goes for all religions. People have difficulties to distinguish between religion itself and its followers.
As you said, just because someone has a christian name and says they are doing something in the name of God, that doesn't mean their actions are indeed justified by Bible.

4. Christianity is not based off, inspired by or derived from any other religion in existance.

And this is where our oppinions differ slightly.
Although Christianity is based on and around Jesus, the concept of Son of God is not new. It is present in a lot of religions that existed before Christianity, like in Egypt, ancient Greece, Iran, India, etc, etc.
That doesnt prove with 100% certainty that Christianity is just a rip-off, but it does put it in a different perspective. What I am talking about here is that Jesus maybe wasnt the ONLY creation God sent to us.
Also, Christianity has incorporated several pagan rituals into its own, the famous one being the date of Jesus' birth, a pagan holiday. Or the christmas tree. I do not see that as a bad thing. It is a natural process and doesn't really negate the very ORIGIN of a religion.

5. Christians are not perfect, neither are they "better" than nonchristians.

Agreed.

6. Last, today there are a lot of groups that use the bible, Jesus or related concepts to promote their own ideas.

Hmmm I am undecided on this one.
If you look at the history of Christianity, it has changed, evolved to what it is now, various churches, denominations, practices. These new christians you talk about may also be just a part of this continuous evolution of faith.
But, of course, if they evolve so much that the basic principles of Christianity are not recognizable anymore, then they really cannot be called Christians.

1. I don't think you understand this argument fully. Consider the Puritans. Leaders (possibly inadvertently) used God and religion as a means to engineer their people to be "perfect." This is actually historically true.

2. Uh yeah...what's your point? More people means more corruption.

3. Yes, but this does not excuse to volatility of religion. People kill people in the name of religion as well as develop an unnatural sense of the world around them.

4. This one cracks me up (...because your so wrong). Major parts of Christianity are derived from pagan rituals. The Mithras cult (which far predates Jesus), was nearly identical to Christianity except for the fact that it was polytheological. The bread and wine used in their ceremonies symbolized body and blood. December 25 (as it is called now), was one of their holy days. They believed a savior would come one day and rid them of sin. How can you say these are just coincidences? Christianity quite obviously stole from others.

5. Agreed.

6. Actually you are quite wrong here too. The much more accurate statement would be that these organizations are based on Jewish beliefs.

It was looking pretty good up until this part:

Originally posted by Jakko
4. Christianity is not based off, inspired by or derived from any other religion in existance.
Some people like to yell around Christianity "borrowed" some concepts from other religions like paganism.
Truth is that the concepts of Christianity are documented throughout history, and that since Christianity is not some fictional storyline (point 2) it can't be based off of any other religion. (www.comereason.com)

This is patently false, and the Bible itself is the proof of it. Christianity is based extensively on Judaism. What Christians call the "Old Testament" is a rather creatively translated version of the Torah.

More accurately, the Old Testament is derived from the Tanakh (which includes the Torah, Prophets and Scrolls), but accuracy doesn't describe any Bible translation I have seen -- they deviate radically from the more literal and accurate Hebrew favored by and read in synagogue by Jews.

Also, don't forget that Jesus was a devout Jew (apparently a rabbi, no less), and made extensive references to the laws of Moses and the prophets of Judaism.

There are many elements of both Christianity and Judaism -- the religion it originated from -- which can be traced directly to non-Christian roots, such as the concept of blood sacrifice, which is an ancient practice found in several religions.

Add the ritual vampirism and cannibalism of the "Eucharist", and your claim really starts to fall apart. The "Virgin birth" is straight out of Hellenistic myths describing demi-gods like Hercules, who was reputed to be the product of precisely such a union between Zeus and Alcmena.

A Matter Of Perspective

Overall, it seems like you have a pretty good attitude about Christianity, but nonetheless fall into the trap you set for yourself by ignoring truths which do not originate from the Bible -- or even within it, for that matter.

I can't believe that anyone who has actually read even just a few pages of the Bible could make such an obviously false claim as to suggest that "Christianity is not based off, inspired by or derived from any other religion in existance". Every page of the Bible itself clearly disputes this!

Obvious falsehoods and self-contradictions such as these are one of the more notable traps that Christians fall into, and they are traps of deceit, make no mistake about it. The "King of Lies" is no doubt pleased by such behavior.

We do not find truth by declaring it, but by seeking it and knowing it when we find it. Pride blinds us to truth, and pride prevents many (but not all) Christians from seeing truth, even when it is right in front of their noses.

But this problem isn't unique to Christians, just dramatically illustrated by them. It is literally a defining characteristic, which is a dubious distinction. I see a lot of the same sort of thing among scientists, too, with the addition that they deny that they even practice a religion -- all while doing just that.

God isn't lying to you or anyone else, we do a good enough job on our own.



[edit on 11/1/2004 by Majic]

"Christianity is not based off, inspired by or derived from any other religion in existance"

ummm....

Judaism
Zoroastrianism
Epic of Gilgamesh (come on...)
I could go into way more detail here...im just tired right now

Look I believe in God. I also think Jesus was enlightened. However, that doesn't mean you have to be ignorant about the religion.



[edit on 093030p://1u12 by Lucid Lunacy]

You are all wrong.
Seriously.

You have to realize one very important thing here.
If the christian religion tells us about a son of God, it does not mean that automaticly this has been stolen from other religions where there is also a son of God. There is no proof to back that up, at all.

As for christmas being on the same day as other religions special days, that was a decision of the church in the time the church was trying to decrease the amount of followers of those pagan religions.

These days were not set by Jesus, neither set in the bible. They were all changed afterwards.

Originally posted by Majic

This is patently false, and the Bible itself is the proof of it. Christianity is based extensively on Judaism. What Christians call the "Old Testament" is a rather creatively translated version of the Torah.

When I discuss this point, I consider Judaism and christianity the same religions. The only difference is that jews do not see Jesus as the son of God.

Also, don't forget that Jesus was a devout Jew (apparently a rabbi, no less), and made extensive references to the laws of Moses and the prophets of Judaism.

Exactly, that is why I see them as the same religion. That is also why the bible not only the NT.

There are many elements of both Christianity and Judaism -- the religion it originated from -- which can be traced directly to non-Christian roots, such as the concept of blood sacrifice, which is an ancient practice found in several religions.

This kind of reasoning is so wrong. What proof do you have to make these bold claims. Just because christianity speaks about blood sacrafice it MUST have been borrowed from some other religion? I really don't understand your point.

Add the ritual vampirism and cannibalism of the "Eucharist", and your claim really starts to fall apart. The "Virgin birth" is straight out of Hellenistic myths describing demi-gods like Hercules, who was reputed to be the product of precisely such a union between Zeus and Alcmena.

Once again, because some other religion somewhere in the world once had a virgin birth in it , christianity MUST have taken this from this religion???
I am sorry but that's not enlightened. That's not based on reasoning and neither on proof.

This is probably one of the points where our opinions differ a lot.
I did investigate this. As I got older I started to wonder wether the religion my parents followed was real. Wether it was truth. I had a lot of questions regarding these subjects and tried to find answers in an objective way, not blinded by desires.
I found that the reasoning as you explain it, is based on misunderstanding history and making quick assumptions.

Riggggggghhhhhhhhht. Then why were there inquisitions? The Spanish Inquisition was the result of the reconquest of Spain on the Muslims and the policy of converting the Jews and the Muslims to Christianity.

Uh huh, it was in no way meant to keep order and people in line?

Rriiiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhhhhtttttttttttttt.

pilot, keep your ignorant statements for yourself if you are unable to give them thought okay?
I can not and will not try to justify every single screwed up thing humanity did in the name of God. They were wrong, that's all I can say.

People tried to use Christianity for their own agenda as I allready pointed out, which is what your example is about.

Hmm now I'm ignorant because I have my own opinions about religion and christianity? Im ignorant because I stated a fact about how people use Christianity to.............

Oh whatever. Ignorant. You stooped to name calling quite quickly. Very *Christian* of you Jakko.

Originally posted by just_a_pilot
Hmm now I'm ignorant because I have my own opinions about religion and christianity? Im ignorant because I stated a fact about how people use Christianity to.............

Oh whatever. Ignorant. You stooped to name calling quite quickly. Very *Christian* of you Jakko.

I am immune for "oh that's so christian" bullsh!t.
Yes your statement was ignorant. Your tone was ignorant as well.
You are not ignorant, I am sure you can post things that are not as ignorant as that post.

Originally posted by Jakko
When I discuss this point, I consider Judaism and christianity the same religions. The only difference is that jews do not see Jesus as the son of God.

When I see people change the definitions of words to rationalize absurdity, I start losing interest in further discussion.

My comments were directed at your post as it reads in English, and should be interpreted in English as well. To do otherwise is to sabotage the exchange of ideas.

Judaism and Christianity are not the same religion, and it is insulting to both the intelligence of the reader and Jews to say otherwise.

Ironic that someone who takes exception to the idea that Christianity is based on other religions should claim Judaism as Christianity practiced by heathens. Hypocrisy, actually.

I refuse to accept such an obvious fallacy as a fact for the sake of this discussion.

If that's a problem for you, then this is probably as far as I can go in terms of meaningful dialog.

I know this may sound harsh or sarcastic, but that is not my mood or intent. If you are going to play semantic games with me, then this is where we will part ways.

Originally posted by Majic
Judaism and Christianity are not the same religion, and it is insulting to both the intelligence of the reader and Jews to say otherwise.

You obviously don't WANT to understand what I am saying to you.
The christian religion is OBVIOUSLY result of judaism, and the difference is that judaism does not think jesus is the messiah.

When we are talking about wether or not christianity is derived from any other religion, I do not treat judaism as some other religion, because christianity IS judaism in the basis.

If you think you're such an intelligent reader you should at least be intelligent enough to understand this.

Originally posted by Jakko
If you think you're such an intelligent reader you should at least be intelligent enough to understand this.

I'll leave you with that thought for company.