Originally posted by Illmatic67
The Talmud also says all colored people are a cursed people.

[Edited on 5-10-2003 by Illmatic67]

And anyone who isn't them... Whites go in their pile of dung as well.

The way I see it, its that almost all ethnic group has a kind of supremacy ideology. Why should the jews be any diffrent? I mean I live in South Africa, and here almost every single group think their better than the rest.

Originally posted by OpusDei
The way I see it, its that almost all ethnic group has a kind of supremacy ideology. Why should the jews be any diffrent? I mean I live in South Africa, and here almost every single group think their better than the rest.

FFS, The Jews DON'T think they are better. I'm tired of those stupid nazi claims, probably most of them where invented during Hitlers reign, as an excuse to his unlogical claims about the jews.

Originally posted by Transc3ndent

Originally posted by OpusDei
The way I see it, its that almost all ethnic group has a kind of supremacy ideology. Why should the jews be any diffrent? I mean I live in South Africa, and here almost every single group think their better than the rest.

FFS, The Jews DON'T think they are better. I'm tired of those stupid nazi claims, probably most of them where invented during Hitlers reign, as an excuse to his unlogical claims about the jews.

I've got a copies of the Talmud and Mein Kampf. Sorry to say, but the Talmud is in essence very racist. The word they use to describe gentiles(i.e. everyone who's not Jewish) is the same for cattle., the word for gentile women is the same word used to describe unclean meat.

But, you are right when you say Jews don't think their better than others. Very few have actually read the Talmud, and even fewer actually believe it.

- My point was simply that these ideologies exist in almost every culture(america has the KKK, Europe the Neo-nazies), why is it in any way surprising that the Jews also have something similar?

Where there are people, there will always be strife & prejudice.

*bangs head repeatedly against the wall*

Zionism has nothing to do with satanism, as i said Zionism is the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel.
Zionism is the reason why we are seeing problems between Palestine and Israel, its the Zionist who believe that the holy land is theirs. Zionist are also highly religious people who follow the bible word for word and have nothing to do with Satan or Satanism. It is also believed that Zionist believe that they are the choosen race of God and that in time the world will be theirs. Not every jew agrees with Zionism, there is a number of jewish groups who are against zionist. Some jews believe that zionist are exploiting the word of God for their own personal gain.

Most White nationalist and Islamic nationalist are totally against Zionism. Both agree with jews that the Zionist movement is a conspiracy to take over the world. Now, there isn't any evidence which points to the fact that zionist want world domination. In the early 1900s their was a document that point to the fact of Zionist planning to take over the world, it was later proved to be a fake.

Zionist follow the law of Moses, their study the Torah, just like normal jews and every new born boy is circumcised on the 8th Day and all zionist are strongly religious. But i still haven't seen no evidence to suggest that there is some secret plot to take over the world.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
It basically believes the interests of the state and jewish people supercede all other concerns in the world, and there is nothing too dirty, to crude, to evil, too underhanded that can be done in the support and defense of the Zionist state.

Ummm... not exactly... This is what anti-Semites will tell you Zionism means, but the word actually means the following:

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

(From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, via www.dictionary.com)

Zionism is essentially the stance that believes in the validity of the State of Israel. Not all Zionists are extremists... in fact, I would say that the majority of Zionists are just regular Israelis who want to be left alone to prosper in their own country. Some Zionists are extremists, and have extreme opinions, and do extreme things... just as some anti-Zionists are extremists and do extreme things.

It stems from and extremely racist form of Judeism from the Talmud, which states that only jews are human, all gentiles are cattle meant ot serve the jewish people, and that all that gentiles own belongs to the jews. It has some prety sick and twisted # in it. the Talmud is basically the first five books of the bible, the torah, emballeished with the interpretations and views of historic Rabbis and schollars.

Not exactly. The Talmud is an interpretation of the verbal traditions of Judaism, including interpretation of the meaning of certain aspects of the Torah. The quotes that your web pages presents are out of context. You have to remember that many of the people who wrote this were in the Diaspora, where Jews were killed daily during pogroms and the like. For them to say "You must not tell a Gentile about what we say about them, or you will be killed" is natural... Gentiles would use any excuse to kill a Jew. Also, I should note that the Talmud is not considered the infallible source of wisdom that this web page claims... as far as I am aware, most Jews consider the Talmud a collection of commentaries by fallible human beings, and thus it is completely open to discussion.

AlexKennedy, excellent post if i had any votes left, i would of voted for you on that post.

I think there so much misconceptions about Zionism is partly because poeple tend to think of the protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Originally posted by OpusDei
I think there so much misconceptions about Zionism is partly because poeple tend to think of the protocols of the Elders of Zion.

OpusDei, exactly. Even though the document was proved to be a fake, some still believe it to be true

Ah the joys of nazism, so many lies they made up to condem other races. Never believe anything that comes from the third Reich

It's not often I disagree with you ML. But I feel that I do have to go out on a limb here.

Religious scripture does tend to be of a racist nature. For example, I believe that the OT was written specifically for the Jews. And just the fact that they are referred to as the Chosen People, whilst there are many others who are inferior in their eyes and therefore due a good dose of the wrath of their god, goes to show this. The Koran is pretty much the same.
I do have a tendency to believe that scribess turned their gods into tribal dieties and therefore anyone not of that tribe was either an outcast or inferior unless he took up the proscribed mode of worship. Granted, it's a very subtle form of racism - but it's still racism.

I agree that the Torah was written for the Jews, but I disagree that religion is inherently racist. For example, the Jews are not a “race”, they are a religion. Anyone of any ethnic group can convert to Judaism, and become a Jew. As an example, the Matriarch Ruth was a Gentile by birth, but converted to Judaism. The link I gave above has much more detail concerning false claims of racism in Hebrew writings, to which I will refer.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by Leveller
And just the fact that they are referred to as the Chosen People, whilst there are many others who are inferior in their eyes and therefore due a good dose of the wrath of their god, goes to show this.

This is simply not so. First of all, I believe that if you actually look at the Old Testament, God never claims dominion to be directly wrathful over those who did not worship Him (if that makes any sense). Yes, he told the Chosen people to fight the present inhabitants of Canaan, but God's Wrath per se seems reserved for the Jews.

As for being a "chosen people," I believe there is a story somewhere in a Talmud about God asking all the other people of the world to make a covenant with him, and finally asking the Jews, who only agreed because He threatened to drop a mountain on them. The Jews were "chosen" only in the same sense that Job was "chosen." They'd have to endure a whole lot of hardship so that true monotheism could be developed (or re-developed) in the world.

ML. I agree that now Judaism is a religion which could be classed as universal and is open to anyone who wishes to join if they wish to adhere to it. But when Judaism began, it started with a race of people who all belonged to the same racial background - the Semites. As religions were normally restricted to specific races back in history, I find it very hard to believe that this difference was not used within interpretation and creation of scriptures. When we look at the way that the Holy Land was taken over in the OT, there are many references to other different nationalities and I find it hard to find anything in there with which I can use to agree with your comment, when we look at how the literature treats them. The very fact, that the OT refers to the enemies of the early Hebrews as the Philistines or the Babylonians and not just as the followers of Ba'al or Om or whatever, means that race is identified. I do believe that the early Hebrews were a race of people and could not be defined merely as a religion. Time and time again in the Bible, we see them deviating from the Jewish religion and it seems to be the words of their leaders (ie Moses) holding them together and bringing them back on course that keep them together. The fact that they were tribes of a race meant that they had the sociological advantage which enabled them to do this.

I don't believe that religion is inherently racist either - but I do believe that it became infected at an early stage because of the way that it was interpreted. Of course, we could say that it's all about the interpretation and that just because the interpreters got it wrong it doesn't make the religion bad. But isn't a religion just man's interpretation of God anyway? Maybe there were hidden truths but they certainly seem to have been hidden even more along the line of history.

I guess if we get to the true meaning of religion - the way it really should be practiced - then we could agree that it isn't racist, tribalist or devisive in any way - in my opinion, the origins and intentions of early religions were pure. But I believe that once those interpretations started slipping in and the masses started following them, the religions started to falter and deviate away from their original purpose.

I suppose that we have to define racism as well. For want of anything better, I've taken the definition from dictionary.com.

"The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others."

As I've said, I believe that the early Jews were a race of people. The Bible does give them the title of being God's Chosen and therefore superior.
Don't get me wrong though - I'm not trying to single out the Jewish faith alone, as I believe that many other religions are just as guilty of creating a gulf between people of different nations and races through the differing modes of their worship and their interpretations of God.



[Edited on 29-5-2004 by Leveller]

Alex. How can you say that God's wrath was only for the Jews when you can read the bible and find Him suposedly telling them that it is OK to go into cities and lay them to the sword when they originally take over the Holy Land?

I still must disagree with the assertion that being a Jew is racially exclusive. The term was unknown in the days of the Torah, and Mosaic law, the very basis of Judaism, gives instruction on the acceptance of converts.
To illustrate my point, in the days of Christ, a “Jew” simply referred to a resident of Judea who practiced the Hebrew religion. The Samaritan woman at Jacob’s Well, who was an Israelite (presumably a Benjaminite), did not consider herself a Jew. She asked Jesus, “Why dost thou, a Jew, ask drink of me, being a woman of Samaria? For the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.” Therefore, since not even all of the Hebrews considered themselves Jews, the issue of race appears not to have been brought into question. You are correct that the Hebrews were Semitic, but so were the Canaanites whom you also mentioned. They were certainly of different tribes, but had common ancestry that preceded Abraham, peace be upon him.

Fiat Lvx.

Logically it would have had to have been racially exclusive at some point in it's history. A religion has to start somewhere and at it's very basic origins it would start with a few people from the same common heritage.

But although there was a common ancestory, there were many times when the tribes divided. Coming from a common background doesn't mean that ethnic makeup wouldn't have changed over the centuries. The ethnic makeup of the people in the Holy Land before the Hebrews arrived would have probably been altered by years of inter-breeding with their neighbours. Even the Hebrews themselves probably had some Egyptian blood when they left in Exodus.

I still reckon a lot depends on how you define racism. Maybe tribalism would have been a better word to use - but to me they are one and the same.


I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.