NEWS: Israel Guilty of War Crimes Against Palestinians

Uh, war crimes? i didn't know that Palestine had declared war on Israel or vice versa. I thought Israel was getting rid of invaders on israel land and wiping out hideouts for terrorists. Can't commit a war crime if there is no war.

Raphael
Good point, I neglected to mention that earlier.

James,
Crimes against humanity might fit. I don't think either side wants to take that one on!

[Edited on 5/18/2004 by CommonSense]

Originally posted by Djarums
I don't know about divine intervention because I'm not gonna hold my breath for that, but I think that replacing sharon and arafat with two younger people more open to new ideas would help both sides make progress and would be the next best thing.

no, you forget that hamas who is responsible for most suicide bombings would consider anyone who tries to deal with israel as a traitor (and arafat they dont really like as it is)and wouldnt hesitate to kill them, im sure they would find a way to make the new israeli leader you wish was in power change his view and want to strike them back and the cycle will start again, its more than about common sense, logic and wanting peace, emotions are the major reason things are the way they are and it wont change just because new more open leaders are in power, anyone should realise its more than just whose in power or not, i mean its been going on through how many different leaders?

i mean its been going on through how many different leaders?

Fair point. I believe the answer to your question on the Palestinian side is 1. Obviously anyone with intelligence of a registered level knows that their no-name prime ministers aren't the leaders. Which leaves Mr. Arafat.

Originally posted by ThePrankMonkey
this is nice and all but amnesty international doesnt have any weight and cant do much but make statements...

i think israel is guilty of what amnesty international has claimed. but who's going to actually do something about it? certainly not the UN! they are the role model of inaction. and the US has an israeli hand up its governments butt controlling it...every time the UN has tried the UN with its veto power steps in.

so who can do anything to punish them?

actually i believe israel is controlling the u.s and the u,n and the global elite are controlling them and they are delibaritely promoting terrorism..

Originally posted by worldwatcher
The tearing down of homes does not stop anti Israel violence, it only incites more anger and hatred from the Palestinians.

I see this argument a lot, the essential premise is that since there is violence from both sides, that the violence would go away if only one side stopped, and that we should expect Israel to be that one side because we can't expect that of the Arabs.

The problem with that reasoning is that history shows it's not true. When you look at the violence of the past, that's terrorist violence against Israel, it gets higher when Israel offers peace. We saw this back in 1993 after the Oslo agreement was made, where Israel agreed to a Palestinian state, withdrew from territories and provided arms and training to Palestinian-Arab security forces so that they could combat terrorism, and anti-Israel terrorism actually doubled.

And again in 2000 at Camp David. Arafat was offered a state, soverignty with a total withdrawal of Israeli forces. He turned it down and within a few months he started the Intifada that defines the conflict today.

The bottom line here is that it takes two to make peace. Both sides have to want it for it to work. So long as one side doesn't want peace, all the other side can do is deal with the situation, and that means fighting terrorists.

First of all, I'm sorry for my English, and I'll probably won't be able to express myself as I wound in otehr languages (Hebrew for example), but many of you don't vene have the slightest idea of what's really going on.

I leave in Israel, Jerusalem. This "Situation" between us and the Palestinians had started long before the 90's, though there is no need go go back to the bible.

In the 20s-30s, there was a British mandate in Israel, the British governent has promised us to create a country for us in Israel, we were very happy, because we thought that may funally solve our problem (antisemitism), this point of view is called Zonism.

Well, everything seemed to be fine, and lots of people from russia and europe started coming to Israel (this is called "Aliyot" in hebrew). Back then we had no governmant. no army, and that land belonged to the UK.

After few years, the arabs- who also lived there - have decided they don't like the situation. The result? simple, they started killing us, murdering people (This is called "meoraot", and there are several occasions when this happened)). and we couldn't even protect ourselves because we had no weapons, no army, no police. we had to rely on the british mandate to defent us.

This didn't happen, and after an investigations, the british governmant have desided that it's our fault, becuase we are taking their land and jobs, so they published the a document called "the white book", with restrictions about land purchase and stuff like that.

We of-course objected and told them that the attack were happening because they arabs where running a propoganda against us (because their leaders wanted to gain power through it), but it didn't help.

A few years have passed, nothing changed, and they started murdering us again, and again - we couldn't even defend our selves. And what did the British government do? they published another white book, with even more restriction.

and that's the way it was, every time they started to murder our people - onother white book. we new that we must defend our selves, so we made some organizations to defend us when the time is right. that was the basis for the IDF to come.

During WWII, we halped the british governamnt to manufacture weapons, and we had few military organizations of our own to provide defence. The arabian attacks continued, but this time we could at least defend our selves.

Today, we have a country, a government, and an army.
Our army still does the same things, it provides defence. and It's good army. we won all our wars (there are different reasons for that), we made peace with jordan and egypt - giving them access to water supplies (we gave part of "kineret" lake to jordan, and a large piace of land which we conqered back to egypt).

But the palestinians just don't want us here. We teach our children in schools that they should strive to peace, they teach there children that suiciding and killing Israelis while doing so will grant them a place in heaven next to muhamad, They teach them that there is no such thing as "Israel", and they hate us. This, by the way, has been proven, and our military was shocked when they discovered maps of "palestine" covering the whole territory of Israel in their schools.


As someone said here, attemps to achieve peace only provoke more hostility. Ehud Barak was willing to give them almost the whole country, and as a result they started to blow buses rapidly ,shooting and cevilian cars killing whole families, going to villages and murdering civilians, etc...


One might say it is our fault, and I simply can;t see it because I'm Israely. well, It's not true. I do want peace, I trully want it, and most of the israeli people want it.

Arafat is a terrorist, not because I hate him, but because he is indeed a terorist- from an historic point of view.

Every day, EVERY SINGLE DAY, we stop another suicide bomber from killing dozens of civilians, every day they try to kill civilians by bomarding villages (Thanks to the lack of their military technoligie, and to our millitary, this rarely couses casualties). We kill people such as the hamas leaders simply because it's one of the only things we can do in order to protect ourselves.

And because we have a military force and good intellegence gathering, we don't have more casualties than they have. And if they didn't try try to kill our soldiers while there are women and children among their gunman (it's a known tactic) , and if they stopped teaching their children that it's good to kill the "evil israeli people", and if there whole government wasn't ruled by organizations such as hamas, they wouldn't had casualties at all.

Lately they blowed 2 tanks (not really tanks, I don't know how to say it in English, in hebrew it's called "NAGMASH") with lots of soldiers using smuggled RPGs from egypt. So we entered Rafah in order to stop this, we have a right to do this.

It's really shamefull that some of you here think there are no smuggling tunnels, that we made this up. you want proves? there are dozens of them: photos, videos, you can even go and see them yourselves ffs.

I go to cnn.com and I see something like: "Rafah residents: living in hell...". for you it seems that when they kill 40 israelis in a bus bombing it's much less serious than the destruction of a tiny house where weapons where smuggled in order to kill another 40 Israelis.

You know nothing besides what you see on tv and read in the newspapers. Each time we offer them peace they blow another bus. Our current military actions helped the most in fighting terrorism, and that's why we continue doing them (and to be honest, CT experts from all over the world come here to learn from us about CQB, CT tactics, etc...).
During operation "Homat Magen" (Shield Wall?) almost no alerts on terror attacks came, it was a complete success, many terrorists and gunman were cought, many explosives labs where destroyed, But for you it's crime against humanity.

You tend to ignore things like When they brought a pig corpse to Jhenin in order for it to smell like like a massacure , or when they lied to news agencies as the lie each day.

You see pictures of palestinian streets and you are shocked because of how awfull it looks. well, the truth is it looks the same (and even worse) in every arabian country, including egypt, iraq, jordan, etc....

You see a palestinian boy who was accidently killed by IDF soldiers and you think we are murderers, while you don't know that the parents of this boy probably think that sending him to suicide and killing dozens of jews is the most noble thing on earth.

You just hate us more and more with every step we do, and there is nothing we can do about it. we can't offer them peace because we don't have anyone to offer peace to, and history proved it by hundrend of terror casualties. We also can't do nothing while hamas (and other organizations) is getting stronger and causing more and more dead on our side. But when we try to protect our selves by the most basic means of protection it's a crime against humanity.

wow!
Transc3ndent very moving post

If you have an important and beloved limb, say your right hand if you are right handed or your left hand if otherwise, and it becomes diseased in a manner that threatens the rest of your body, and no treatment works, you will have to amputate it and learn to use your other limbs to compensate. The Israeli Palestinian conflict is a poison that now killing the planet. As a direct result of this conflict, people who are not directly involved in it are dying in Africa, Asia, Europe and America. It's time to amputate this blight on humanity. Arm both sides equally and let them take each other out. If they can't take ownership of their own peace process then the planet will be much better off without either group. Down with both Israel and Palestine! I am so sick and tired of this thing that my head hurts each time it or a related issue (which given the spread of the poison is just about any world event) comes up. Israel and Palestine are the major obstacles to world peace, so much so that it's hard to be peaceful while thinking/talking about them. I am ready to sacrifice these idiots and relegate them to past civilizations.

That was a great post, Transc3ndent. I always think it's important to hear from people who are actually involved in the situations we are discussing. Dispite all the research some of us do about these issues, there is no way most of us will ever know the true situation over there or get your kind of perspective on it.

Thanks for the input!

monabaker.com...

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
That was a great post, Transc3ndent. I always think it's important to hear from people who are actually involved in the situations we are discussing. Dispite all the research some of us do about these issues, there is no way most of us will ever know the true situation over there or get your kind of perspective on it.

Thanks for the input!

Originally posted by supernova7
monabaker.com...

I had seen some of those quotes before but not all of them.
Thanks for posting the link.

People love to claim the Israelis are the victims while ignoring what they have done.
That site shows how the Israeli leaders really think.

[edit on 22-10-2004 by AceOfBase]

What I find strange is that Arafat is a "terrorist" who holds a Nobel peace prize

Originally posted by Djarums
Ah yes, groups like amnesty international. With such moral crusaders like this who needs any religious messiah to come and redeem us.

i don't know what Djarums
is objecting to?
is it that the crimes were
not committed
or that in context they
were not crimes
or they were justifiable
crimes because of the
crimes of others?

Condeming Isreal is nice and easy-common target. What most people refuse to do is ask why are they doing that.

Could it be the palastinians have declared war on Isreal?

Could it be Palistinian terrorist intentionally target civillians?

Could it be these houses are used by terroriest to makes weapons.

Could it be they use these houses to shot at Isreally "civilians".

Could it be that terrorists hide in tree groves and shot guns and rockets at civillians?

Yeah, I know-no one wants to know the truth of the matter.-nothing new there.

mrmonsoon, people have been taking Israel's side for years without looking to see if the Palestinian people have legitimate complaints.

The Palestinians routinely have their homes destroyed and have land taken from them to build roads linking settlements. Homes are destroyed for reasons other than being used to launch attacks.

Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA)
House demolitions/Demolition Orders

� From 19 May until 23 May: a total of 117 buildings demolished and 50 partially demolished in the Tel Sultan, Brazil and Salam quarters of Rafah were destroyed or rendered uninhabitable. As a result 379 families (2066 people) made homeless.
� At least 1,000 people sought shelter at 2 UNRWA schools which have been transferred by UNRWA into a shelter home for people made homeless in Rafah.
� 18 May: Demolition orders were issued in Hizma for two houses due to lack of building permit.

Sources: OCHA FCU, UNRWA

Land levelling/confiscation1

West Bank:

� 25 May: The IDF distributed military orders to confiscate 480 dunums of lands in the areas of Beit Baer, Beit Awa, A-Sika, Al-Majd, and Um Shukaf in the south-western part of Hebron district.
� A copy of military order T/02/04 (a map attached to it), which was issued by IDF on 11 May was provided to local municipalities during the week to seize and control approximately 380 dunum of land stretching from the group of villages known as At Ta'mir, south east of Bethlehem, through Bethlehem and Beit Sahur. It appears from the map annex that the area will be used for the construction of a new bypass road linking the Israeli settlements in the east of the district (Teqoa, Ma'ale Amos) to the municipality of Jerusalem.

Gaza:

� 19 May: An IDF bulldozer levelled 20 dunums of cultivated land northern East part of Rafah next to Morag settlement.
� 21 May: IDF bulldozers destroyed 25 green houses and uprooted olive trees in Zurub area west of the Rafah Refugee Camp.

Originally posted by Transc3ndent
First of all, I'm sorry for my English, and I'll probably won't be able to express myself as I wound in otehr languages (Hebrew for example), but many of you don't vene have the slightest idea of what's really going on.

Thank you for joining the discussion and i am pleased that you did so in spite of the language barrier. The link below leads to B'Tselem's website. Those people also live in Israel and the website is accessible in Hebrew, Arabic, English, among others. They have a different view of the events. Although I do not mean by posting this to undermine your sincere concerns.


www.btselem.org...

18.10.04: Disproportionate Force Suspected in Northern Gaza Strip

133 Palestinians killed during IDF Action in Gaza Strip


B'Tselem Calls for Investigations into all Civilian Deaths



B'Tselem's investigation indicates that during the 'Days of Repentance' Operation (29 September � 15 October 2004):



IDF forces in the northern Gaza Strip (Beit Hanun, Beit Lahiya, and the Jabalya refugee camp) killed 116 Palestinians and wounded approximately 430 Palestinians;


Among those killed were 50 civilians who did not take part in the hostilities, including 26 children under 18;


The IDF damaged at least 235 homes in the northern Gaza Strip: 85 housing units were completely demolished and another 150 housing units were severely damaged.


An additional 17 Palestinians were killed during IDF actions in the central and southern sections of the Gaza Strip. B'Tselem has not yet completed its investigation into the identity of the persons killed and the circumstances in which they died.


One Israeli soldier was killed during the operation.


The death of a large number of civilians who did not take part in the fighting, as well as the enormous property damage, strongly suggest that the IDF used disproportionate and illegal force. The lack of intention to kill civilians does not absolve the IDF commanders from their obligation to prevent gunfire, even when directed at armed individuals, if such fire is liable to result in disproportionate harm to civilians.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
Amnesty International, the human rights group, has declared that Israel is guilty of war crimes with the destruction of Palestinian homes in Gaza Strip.

WOW, amnesty International really needs to take a look at the laws before they go around declaring people as "guilty." Aren't there courts and lawyers and juries and judges who decide who is guilty of what. I don't think it makes them look very good to come out with a false unsupported verdict before any sort of trial has been held, I don't even think the international court has said any sort of trial is going to begin..

Originally posted by Dae

What I find strange is that Arafat is a "terrorist" who holds a Nobel peace prize

That's not that strange...it seems to be "en vogue" these days to give or nominate some of the worse dictators in the world with the nobel prize..... Fidel Castro was also nominated for it by Norway..... it seems lately that claiming the real murderers and dictators of the world are peaceful and loving people who are trying to help....while trying to blame everything that is wrong in the world as being caused by the US and Israel...when reality shows the contrary, yet the people of the world are blinded to this.

The whole world is really messed up, and it is not just one place on Earth that is going through this.... There are hundreds of armed conflicts all over the world.. In Spain the separatists movement ETA, have been making attacks mostly on police stations and to military officials but they have also killed civilians... the same can be said of the IRS and many other groups that "are demandindg one thing or another and committing terrorist acts if the demands are not met" on their own land or in other parts of the world.

To see a list of some of the conflicts in the world, many that are still happening as we speak, the following link gives some information about some of these conflicts and wars in the world.

www.historyguy.com...

This is not happening just in one part of the world, but all over...and I am really getting tired of people always blaming either the US or Israel for the "world problems"....this is really naive, and ignorant on the part of those people always trying to blame everything on two countries....when the whole world is in conflict, and the US or Israel are not involved in most of the armed conflicts that are happening in the world.....

Some months back I presented links, pictures and a video of one of the Palestianian tv stations that was teaching their children that dying while killing Israelis is the highest honor for the "Palestinian cause," they never say terrorism of course.... I am not going to say that every Palestinian is a terrorist, but these people see on their tv, a real propaganda, trying to inspire all Palestinians to become terrorists, teaching their children and youth to strap bombs on their bodies to kill Israeli citizens and inspiring other acts of violence....they target more Israeli citizens than military and this is a fact.

Giving up on terrorism is not going to make it go away, like was demonstrated on the US under the Clinton administration and by what Spain went through and the problems they had even after they changed their votes to a socialist government, thinking that the terrorist act of Al Qaeda on the Madrid bombings was caused only because of their involvement with the US...when in fact Osama and other Islamic terrorist organizations have mentioned quite a few times that they want to have back Andalusia, Italy, France, Kashmir, and Jerusalem and have no infidels living in these lands, but their demands will not stop there either, even if somehow they take control of the above mentioned countries.


[edit on 23-10-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by worldwatcher
djarums if you really read my initial post you will clearly see I did mention Israel's reasons for their actions. I didn't exclude it or attempt to hide it. I clearly stated why Israel felt they were justified.

but you must know world watcher that anything you post that has the slightest anti semitic tone that djarums is going to jump all over it,
please email me when you get a chance ....i miss your emails......