The Sabbath

reply to post by mplsfitter539

Hi Fitter

You wrote: QUOTE

"Nothing in the New Testament is contrary to the Old Testament - there are no contradictions in the bible..."

UNQUOTE

Nothing is further than the truth than what you just posted above.

Try reading the Hebrew Scriptures a little more closely then compare what is written with the outlook presented in the so-called Greek 'New Testament' canonical 'scriptures' with an open mind - you might be in for quite a shock & awe experience.

Take a few random samples (otherwise this thread would last a long time) e.g. the list of the 12 Tribes of Yisro'el in the Song of Deborah in Judges chapter 5 does NOT match the List of the 12 Tribes of Yisroel in the socalled Book of Revelation nor in another list which names other tribes as well.

The List of the 12 Tribes of Yisro’el in the Song of Deborah in Judges chapter 5 are:

Ephraim, Benjamin ,Machir , Zebulun , Issachar ,Barak,Reuben, Gilead ,Dan,Asher ,.Zebulun, Naphtali

(Judah, Joseph and Levi are missing, but Barak, Machir and Ephraim are added)

Genesis 49:3-27 - Jacob’s Sons are

Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, & Benjamin. (Ephraim and Manasseh are missing]

In the NT the list of the 12 Tribes from the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (aka the Book of Revelation) is:

Reuben, Gad,Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi,Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin & Judah.

(The tribe of Barak is missing, the tribe of Dan is missing, Ephraim is missing and Machir is missing, and the half tribe of Mannasseh is added)

How can anyone comparing these lists of tribes and half tribes claim that these lists match exactly without contradictory entries?

And this is just ONE example of more than 500 contradictory elements between the 2 Testaments (and many more within the same testament);

See the fake Geneaologies in the 1st canonical Greek gospel (‘according to Matthew’ whoever he was) with his fake list sets of 14 corresponding to 14, the gemmatrial number for ‘David’

Matthew's manipulation of the genealogy is reflected in the fact that he dropped the names of the 3 Judahite kings in Jesus' line: Jehoahaz, Jehoiakim and Zedekiah [2 Chronicles 36:1-13], doubled the use of the name of both King David in verse 6 and King Jechoniah in verses 11 and 12 in the beginning of his 2 and 3 sets, and added the name of Tamar's other son Zerah (not in the line of descent) to make his list reflect the total number of names/ males, and to produce 3 sets of 14 generations for a total of 42 generations from Abraham to 'ho Iesous'

There were 6 generations inclusive between Joram and Jotham - 1 Chron 3:11-12
There were 3 generations inclusive between Joram and Jotham - Matt 1:8-9

Here are some other contradictory curiosities - if you dare to do a close reading of the texts of the OT and NT

R. Yehoshua (Gk Ho Iesous) teaches that Divorce, except for unchastity, is unthinkable Mt.5:32.
Whereas in Mark chapter 10:11-12 'ho Iesous' teaches that Divorce for ANY reason is unthinkable Mk.10:11,12.

in 2 Chronicles 24:20, Zacharias was the son of Jehoida, the priest.
but in Matt 23:25, 'ho Iesous' is saying that Zacharias was the son of Barachias. .

(Note: The name Barachias or Barachiah does not appear in the canonical Hebrew scriptures, but was named by Josephus as a man who was murdered in the Temple c. 54 CE, AFTER the death of Iesous)
.
The moneychangers Whips & Chains incident occurred at the end of Jesus’ career. Mt.21:11,12.
The moneychangers incident occurred at the beginning of Jesus’ career. Jn.2:11-15.

YHWH promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8
YHWH did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13

Divorce, except for unchastity is unthinkable Mt.5:32.
Divorce for any reason is unthinkable Mk.10:11,12.

Jesus refused point blank to drink the potion offered him and did not touch it at all Mk.15:23.
Jesus sipped the drink offered and then refused to take more. Mt.27:34.
Jesus drank down the whole drink offered him. Jn.19:30.

John knew of Jesus before he baptized him.; Jn.1:28,29.
John knew nothing of Jesus at all. Mt.11:1-3. (‘are you the One to Come or shall we look for Another?)

This kind of thing can go on and on - surely you are conversant enough with the texts to know these things?

If so why would you spout such nonsense as 'there are no contradictions in the bible' when the evidence clearly shows that it is full of them, both large and small.

You must be VERY careful about what you post on ATS - you're sure to be found out eventually !

Originally posted by mplsfitter539

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by SkyLiner
Only the Sabbath Commandment is forgotten.
The only Commandment that begins with the word, "Remember..."

It's also the only Commandment which is not repeated in the New Testament.

It is not mentioned in the new testament because you are supposed to remember it and not need to be continuously reminded of it.

But we need to be reminded not to murder, steal or lust after others?

If the day had been changed Jesus or Paul would have mentioned the change at least once.

No one, not even the Catholic Church, has claimed that the Sabbath was changed. We just worship God on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection of Christ, not on the Jewish Sabbath, following Sabbath Law.

reply to post by adjensen

No one, not even the Catholic Church, has claimed that the Sabbath was changed. We just worship God on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection of Christ, not on the Jewish Sabbath, following Sabbath Law.

Did God ever say that we should hold a sabbath day for the resurrection of Jesus? No

Did Jesus say that we should have a sabbath day for he's resurrection? No

Does the Catholic Church say that we must have a sabbath day to worship Jesus resurrection? Yes they did.

Than who's sabbath laws do we worship Gods laws or the Catholic Church?

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by mplsfitter539

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by SkyLiner
Only the Sabbath Commandment is forgotten.
The only Commandment that begins with the word, "Remember..."

It's also the only Commandment which is not repeated in the New Testament.

It is not mentioned in the new testament because you are supposed to remember it and not need to be continuously reminded of it.

But we need to be reminded not to murder, steal or lust after others?

If the day had been changed Jesus or Paul would have mentioned the change at least once.

No one, not even the Catholic Church, has claimed that the Sabbath was changed. We just worship God on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection of Christ, not on the Jewish Sabbath, following Sabbath Law.

Who is the WE in your statement and why are you referring to the Sabbath as the Jewish Sabbath? The laws of God are not Jewish, they are simply the laws of God. As you said yourself thou shalt not murder, would that also be Jewish?

reply to post by spy66


Sunday isn't the Jewish Sabbath.

You want to worship on the Jewish Sabbath, knock yourself out. You want to do it because it's the Jewish Sabbath, then you proclaim yourself under the Law, and you'll be judged by it. That's what the Bible says, and all the rules you'll want to brush up on are in there, as well.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by spy66

 

Sunday isn't the Jewish Sabbath.

You want to worship on the Jewish Sabbath, knock yourself out. You want to do it because it's the Jewish Sabbath, then you proclaim yourself under the Law, and you'll be judged by it. That's what the Bible says, and all the rules you'll want to brush up on are in there, as well.

I never said that Sunday is a jewish sabbath day. Nor is it Gods sabbath day. Sunday is a catholic sabbath day.

The people who worship the Catholic sabbath Sunday are in violation of Gods 4th commandment. That would cover just about the whole world. Just about the whole world fallows the Gregorian callander with all its rituals.

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by spy66

 

Sunday isn't the Jewish Sabbath.

You want to worship on the Jewish Sabbath, knock yourself out. You want to do it because it's the Jewish Sabbath, then you proclaim yourself under the Law, and you'll be judged by it. That's what the Bible says, and all the rules you'll want to brush up on are in there, as well.

I never said that Sunday is a jewish sabbath day. Nor is it Gods sabbath day. Sunday is a catholic sabbath day.

The people who worship the Catholic sabbath Sunday are in violation of Gods 4th commandment. That would cover just about the whole world. Just about the whole world fallows the Gregorian callander with all its rituals.

So you think that the creator of the universe really cares what 24 hour period you choose to worship him? That he came as Jesus, sacrificed himself to be tortured and killed, but will happily damn anyone who picks grain, turns on a light or uses an elevator on Friday evening?

"Just about the whole world" worships on Sunday because they celebrate the life and resurrection of Christ, not because of a slavish devotion to Judaic Law. And because they ignore the failed prophets and liars that came up with Seventh Day Adventism and its ridiculous legalisms.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by spy66

 

Sunday isn't the Jewish Sabbath.

You want to worship on the Jewish Sabbath, knock yourself out. You want to do it because it's the Jewish Sabbath, then you proclaim yourself under the Law, and you'll be judged by it. That's what the Bible says, and all the rules you'll want to brush up on are in there, as well.

I never said that Sunday is a jewish sabbath day. Nor is it Gods sabbath day. Sunday is a catholic sabbath day.

The people who worship the Catholic sabbath Sunday are in violation of Gods 4th commandment. That would cover just about the whole world. Just about the whole world fallows the Gregorian callander with all its rituals.

So you think that the creator of the universe really cares what 24 hour period you choose to worship him? That he came as Jesus, sacrificed himself to be tortured and killed, but will happily damn anyone who picks grain, turns on a light or uses an elevator on Friday evening?

"Just about the whole world" worships on Sunday because they celebrate the life and resurrection of Christ, not because of a slavish devotion to Judaic Law. And because they ignore the failed prophets and liars that came up with Seventh Day Adventism and its ridiculous legalisms.

Actually all of you who worship the Catholic Sabbath Sunday are the ones who's devotion is to the Catholic law. If you want to worship the pope go ahead and knock yourself out why not kiss his ring while you are at it. Maybe if you really suck up to the pope he will let you touch his miter hat fashioned after the fish god dagon.

reply to post by mplsfitter539

I will repost an earlier post of mine in this thread (page 3) and ask you to do what the previous guy failed to do.


So you don't care what Jesus said?

Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

“Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:16-21 NIV)

There, in the exact words of Christ, are the details of how to achieve eternal life. Kindly underline the passage that says you have to keep the Jewish Sabbath.


Failing to do that (as the other guy did) demonstrates either:

1. Sabbath worship is not required for salvation
   
   or
   
   
2. Jesus lied to the young man

So, which one is it?

reply to post by adjensen


Jesus was dealing with thosecommandments that the Rich Young man was failing to keep. These were the ones dealing with his relationship to his fellow man. Jesus said "If you(2nd person singular) would enter into life" not if "ya'll(2nd person plural). So this passage is hardly proof that the Sabbath has nothing to do with Salvation.

Salvation is by Faith, but Christians like to ignore the book of James

The OP asked about when the Sabbath began? Different cultures have different calendars. Muslim countries follow the Jewish pattern and begin their day with sunset. The Roman calendar is from midnight to midnight. Since the Bible says "From evening to evening(sundown) you shall celebrate your Sabbaths, that should settle it.

For those who say it doesn't make any difference, how do you know you worship the right God/god? The God of the Bible is defined not specifically by a name,place, etc, but by being the Creator. I could say Dog is my god, "I have no other Gods before him" so I easily keep the 1st,2nd, and 3rd commandments. The Sabbath commandment(4th), however, defines God's authority and realm, so to deny the Sabbath is ultimately to worship the wrong god.
Its interesting how often the Sun symbol appears in Roman Catholicsm. Who is this "Sun God" whose day gets mandated for worship?

reply to post by adjensen

So you think that the creator of the universe really cares what 24 hour period you choose to worship him? That he came as Jesus, sacrificed himself to be tortured and killed, but will happily damn anyone who picks grain, turns on a light or uses an elevator on Friday evening?

"Just about the whole world" worships on Sunday because they celebrate the life and resurrection of Christ, not because of a slavish devotion to Judaic Law. And because they ignore the failed prophets and liars that came up with Seventh Day Adventism and its ridiculous legalisms.

Well yes, he would care. If not he would never have mentioned it and put it in he's ten commandments now would he?

Jesus didnt come to us to be sacrificed, Jesus came to furfill the word of God. God said this would happen. Jesus just proved that he was write.

Originally posted by UMayBRite!
reply to post by adjensen

 

Jesus was dealing with thosecommandments that the Rich Young man was failing to keep.

No, he wasn't -- did you even read it?

“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

He wasn't failing to keep anything that Jesus mentioned. All that he lacked was to detach himself from his wealth. Nothing about the Sabbath is defined by Jesus as that which the young man either obeyed or needed to change his ways about. It is not even mentioned.

Unless you want to call Jesus a liar, that passage clearly states that Sabbath worship is not required for everlasting life.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by UMayBRite!
reply to post by adjensen

 

Jesus was dealing with thosecommandments that the Rich Young man was failing to keep.

No, he wasn't -- did you even read it?

“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

He wasn't failing to keep anything that Jesus mentioned. All that he lacked was to detach himself from his wealth. Nothing about the Sabbath is defined by Jesus as that which the young man either obeyed or needed to change his ways about. It is not even mentioned.

Unless you want to call Jesus a liar, that passage clearly states that Sabbath worship is not required for everlasting life.

Oh contrar mon frar Jesus didn't say a lot of things but that doesn't mean anything he did not specifically mention in his very short 3 year ministry doesn't apply. Do you honestly believe that he covered everything in just 3 years?

If you are driving down a road and after many miles you do not see a speed limit sign do you just assume that there is no speed limit and you may drive as fast as your car will go? Well same thing here. Jesus probably didn't mention the Sabbath for the same reason he didn't mention all ten commandments and most people agree 9 of them still apply. The only commandment that all of you Catholic law keepers have a problem with is the 4th commandment. The only conceivable reason for disobeying it is that your precious catholic law specifically compels you no to obey God's 4th commandment on penalty of Judaizing. Its fear that the catholic church instilled back in about the 4th century and that fear created complacency which is why brain washed catholics don't even question it. Not all catholics are brainwashed just the ones who don't question who gave the catholic church the authority to change times and laws.
Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:

reply to post by mplsfitter539


So you're just going to deflect and not answer my question?

There's nothing about "three year's ministry" there -- he was asked a specific question, "How do I get eternal life?" and gave a specific answer, one which did not include anything about the Sabbath. Throughout the New Testament, in fact, Jesus' comments regarding the Sabbath, specifically are in keeping with his statements here.

So, did Jesus lie to the young man, and tell him an intentionally incorrect answer? Or is observation of the Jewish Sabbath not required? That's an either/or, because if you believe that the Bible is accurate and contains all that you need to know to achieve salvation, all you have to work with is Jesus' direct response to that person.

reply to post by adjensen

...No one, not even the Catholic Church, has claimed that the Sabbath was changed...

The Catholic Church claims the responsibility for their change from Sabbath to Sunday.
The Catholic Church refers to Sunday as her Sabbath, and claims that "she" has the authority to do so.
"The Holy Doctors of the Church have decreed, that all glory of the Jewish Sabbath is transferred to it [Sunday]."

...You want to worship on the Jewish Sabbath, knock yourself out. You want to do it because it's the Jewish Sabbath, then you proclaim yourself under the Law, and you'll be judged by it. That's what the Bible says, and all the rules you'll want to brush up on are in there, as well...

It has been already established, the 7th Day Sabbath was given to all mankind in the Garden of Eden.
Adam & Eve were not Jewish.

The origin of the Sabbath, the Sabbath in history, the Sabbath in biblical scripture, the Catholic adoption of Sunday, etc., are all explained/shown quite clearly in:
The Lord's Day Documentary

Originally posted by SkyLiner
reply to post by adjensen

 

...No one, not even the Catholic Church, has claimed that the Sabbath was changed...

The Catholic Church claims the responsibility for their change from Sabbath to Sunday.
The Catholic Church refers to Sunday as her Sabbath, and claims that "she" has the authority to do so.

That doesn't change the Jewish Sabbath.

Christ, while observing the Sabbath, set himself in word and act against this absurd rigorism which made man a slave of the day. He reproved the scribes and Pharisees for putting an intolerable burden on men's shoulders (Matthew 23:4), and proclaimed the principle that "the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27). He cured on the Sabbath, and defended His disciples for plucking ears of corn on that day. In His arguments with the Pharisees on this account He showed that the Sabbath is not broken in cases of necessity or by acts of charity (Matthew 12:3 sqq.; Mark 2:25 sqq.; Luke 6:3 sqq.; 14:5). St. Paul enumerates the Sabbath among the Jewish observances which are not obligatory on Christians (Colossians 2:16; Galatians 4:9-10; Romans 14:5). The gentile converts held their religious meetings on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2) and with the disappearance of the Jewish Christian churches this day was exclusively observed as the Lord's Day. (See SUNDAY.) (Source)

No one is saying that the Jewish Sabbath is now observed on Sunday -- the point of Christ, Paul, and the non-SDA Christian church is that ritualistic observance of the Jewish Sabbath has no part of Christian salvation. And, frankly, the SDA basis for it, Ellen White's "prophecy" that the Mark of the Beast would be forced worldwide Sunday worship, is laughable in this day and age.

The origin of the Sabbath, the Sabbath in history, the Sabbath in biblical scripture, the Catholic adoption of Sunday, etc., are all explained/shown quite clearly in:
The Lord's Day Documentary

Sorry, I don't watch videos (nothing personal to you, I don't watch anyone's videos.)

reply to post by adjensen


Instead of you getting all hung up about your salvation I can assure you that is not in jeopardy. You can break all ten commandments and still have salvation. I never said anyone's salvation was at steak for not keeping the Sabbath holy. Its a commandment just like the other nine are but salvation does not hang on any of the commandments. So now I hope you have that straight. You will have your salvation as will everyone,(1Cor 15:23) but every man in his own order. Salvation is not dependent on obedience. Christ already paid for yours and my sins and He will receive everything He paid for. Obedience is something you should want to achieve not something that that is burdensome. You either want to obey God or you don't either way no one goes to a fake fiery place to be tortured for ever and ever, that is the lie you learned from your beloved catholic church. Its the order that is affected. 1 Cor 15:23 ....but every man in his own order. Will you be in the barley harvest or the wheat harvest? Maybe your only concern is getting in, going to heaven, float on clouds and walk down golden streets in your white robe. You and John Calvin can stand at the edge of the great gulf together and laugh and jeer at the suffering souls who never knew Christ or rejected Christ. More lies of the catholic church.

reply to post by mplsfitter539


So you believe in universal salvation? Everyone gets saved, no matter what? What do you base that claim on?

Originally posted by Juran
reply to post by adjensen

 

You are right I think, but people like to observe the Sabbath on a specific day rather than just randomly in which case I would suggest Saturday because being as it is Satan's day you are proving your allegiance to God by making Satan's day God's day.

The Jews did not name the seventh day Saturday. That was probably what the Romans called that day.
The Jews called the seventh day Shabat which is the origin of the English word Sabbath.

Saturday has nothing to do with satan, it is taken from the Roman god Saturn.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by mplsfitter539

 

So you believe in universal salvation? Everyone gets saved, no matter what? What do you base that claim on?

Yes and I base it on the bible without using any creeds or doctrines created by the church. Do you believe in eternal torment where some people receive salvation but most don't and they go somewhere called hell where they burn and scream in agony forever and ever? Jesus died for the sins of the world ie everyone. The sin is paid for in full with the precious and valuable blood of Christ. Do you honestly believe that God created 90% of the human race just so He could torture them in hell for all eternity? If that is the God that you worship then we worship different Gods. Show me in the bible where it says that anyone is going to burn in hell forever. Keep in mind the words eternity, forever, and forever and ever were translated from the words aion, aionion, and eon to name a few. Please look those words up in a concordance. Aion is an age. Ages have a beginning and an end they don't go on forever and ever. The words that you believe describe this terrible never ending punishment were all translated from words that have nothing to do with that at all. If you understood the character of God you would not believe in such things.
Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.