The Sabbath

In Matthew 24, Jesus describes the "signs of the end-times."

Nation rising against nation, pestilence, false prophets, abomination of desolation, etc...

Jesus then makes this profound statement:

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Why would Jesus instruct His followers (us) to specifically pray that their (our) plight/flight not take place on the sabbath day, if the sabbath day has been done away with?

Originally posted by SkyLiner
In Matthew 24, Jesus describes the "signs of the end-times."

Nation rising against nation, pestilence, false prophets, abomination of desolation, etc...

Jesus then makes this profound statement:

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Why would Jesus instruct His followers (us) to specifically pray that their (our) plight/flight not take place on the sabbath day, if the sabbath day has been done away with?

To whom was he speaking? Gentiles? Or practicing Jews? Given that answer, why do you think he would say that?

reply to post by adjensen

Jesus was speaking not only to His disciples, but also to those that would be present during these end times spoken of.

2nd Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

reply to post by SkyLiner


Unless you follow Judaic Sabbath Law in every aspect (not just the "it has to be on this 24 hour period",) then his warning has absolutely no bearing. So it is obviously intended for those Jews who follow the Law (the people who were listening to him,) not for Gentiles who do not.

If you travel to go to worship services at your SDA church, then you can travel in order to flee to the mountains.

God's Ten Commandments:
Written in stone with God's very own finger.
Kept inside the Ark of the Covenant.
Eternal/Universal...
"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord."
(Isaiah 66:23)

vs.

Mosaic Law;
Written by Moses for the (theocracy) governance of God's nation.
Contained curses against us.
Kept on the side of the Ark.
Done away with at the cross...
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"
(Colossians 2:14)

The 7th Day Sabbath was given to us in the Garden of Eden by God Himself.
It not only predates Judaism, but also predates Sin - itself.

It is a "Tabernacle in time."
Created, set apart, and made Holy by the only One who can make Holy.

reply to post by SkyLiner

Hi Skyliner

You wrote: QUOTE

2nd Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: "

UNQUOTE

πᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος [καὶ is sometimes added here] ὠφέλιμος πρὸς διδασκαλίαν, πρὸς ἐλεγμόν πρὸς ἐπανόρθωσιν, πρὸς παιδείαν τὴν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ

Unfortunately there are issues with your rather faulty 'translation' from the Greek, which would more precisely translate this phrase as


'EVERY GOD-BREATHED WRITING [ IS ] USEFUL FOR TEACHING AND FOR REPROOF AND FOR CORRECTION AND FOR INSTRUCTION IN THE WAYS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS..."

The word ESTI(N) is missing from the Greek MSS for this sentence (is/be) and thus we seem to be dealing with a corrupt transmission of the text at least syntactically - and this of course affects the sense of the whole sentence.

It is clear that the writer means that ANY god-breathed (i.e. inspired) writing would be useful for teaching purposes within the Messianic community etc. - but it is also clear that the writer does NOT mean that EVERY WRITING is useful for teaching and for reproof otherwise we would have to include Sappho's Lesbian poetry (which after all was written down i.e. scripture) and (shock and awe !) Plato's Symposium, and anyone who can read classical Greek knows what he has to say about Man-Boy love in that masterpiece of Literature (which by the way is also (technically) 'Scripture', i.e. a text 'written down')...

We also have to determine : which Writings ('scriptura') are god-breathed, exactly according to the writer of 2 Timothy (whoever he was, certainly not Saul of Tarsus, his Greek Vocabulary and Syntax and his theological outlook is different) who did not specify WHICH Jewish scriptures were 'god breathed' enough to be used for reproof or for teaching or for correction etc.

Certainly we must assume the writer was talking about what he considered to be the Hebrew Scriptures that he revered (whichever list he used), and not any New Testament book, since none of these had gained any 'scriptural' authority in the 80s and 90s yet.

Since the Greek style and theological outlook of the Epistle of 2 Timothy is c. 80-95 CE, one has to remember that there was no 'bible' with specific books (or specific versions of those books) between two covers that were considered 'scriptures', before the Council of Jamnia (Javneh) c. 91 CE.

Even as late as c. 120 AD the Rebbes were still arguing (long after Jerusalem was ground to Powder in the 1st failed Jewish War against Rome (66 to 72 CE) whether books like Esther or Song of Songs or even the Book of the Prophet Hezekiel were god-breathed/inspired (i.e. so holy that they lit. 'defiled the hands').

It wasn't until AFTER the Bar Kokhba revolt (c. 136 CE) that the Jews had a 'Bible between two covers', i.e. the Torah, the Prophets, The Psalms and the Writings (e.g. books like Qoheleth 'Ecclesiastes')

For example, did the writer of 2 Timothy include in the category of 'god breathed' books such as 'A Copy of the Scroll of the Book of the Words of Henoch the Son of Jared to All the Sons of Light in the Last Days' (i.e. I Henoch) as the writer of the 'Epitstle of Jude' whoever he was (Jude 1:14) or the Dead Sea Scrolls group (abandoned in June of 68 CE) would have done?

Would the writer of 2 Timothy ALSO have included books as 'defiling the hands' as The Scroll of the Book of the Divisions of the Times into their Jubilees and Weeks (aka The Book of Jubilees), or The Wisdom of Jesus ben Sirach (aka Sirach, or 'Ecclesaisticus'), or the book entitled 'The Scroll of the Book of the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs being the Sons of Yisro'el to all the Sons of Light in the Last Days' in his list of 'god breathed scriptures' ?

Certainly the Dead Sea Scroll Messianic Priests included books like I Henoch and Testaments of the 12 and Jubilees in their own canon, and most likely (to judge from the quotations in Jude and in the earliest Patristic writings of the Christians) most of the early Church did too, including the '12 disciples'.

So this little mis-quote of yours seems to have opened up a can of very fat juicy worms

Here are some scholarly attempts to translate this syntactically impossible sentence :

The Revised Standard Version of 1881 " All Scripture that is divinely inspired is also profitable"

The American Standard Version of 1901 reads. "Every scripture inspired of God [is] also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness"

The New English Bible says "Every Scripture that is inspired of God is also useful (New English Bible)."

The New Revised Standard Version gives this as an alternate reading.

Every scripture inspired by God is also useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness."

Well, at least the translation scholars made an attempt to make sense of the mangled Greek...but be careful what you quote on ATS !!

Shabbat is Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown. Christ observed it this way as well as all the other Judaic laws including Kashrut.

Nothing was abolished, he did not come to change the law but fulfill it. The only thing nailed to the cross was Jesus. If he were here alive today he'd still be keeping the Jewish laws. People commonly mistake Jesus doing away with all the laws like not eating pork because their translations from Hebrew to Greek to whatever are lacking.

easywaytoheaven.co.uk...

reply to post by SkyLiner


What does any of that have to do with traveling on the Sabbath? Do you go anywhere that day? If so, you're obviously wrong about what you claimed Jesus was teaching, regarding not fleeing to the mountains on the Sabbath.

Your teaching is that God has damned countless millions of faithful people who loved him over the past 2,000 years, simply because they chose to worship him on the wrong 24 hour period. Seems like you worship a petty, nitpicky god of legalisms, not the God of the Bible.

reply to post by adjensen


what that means exactly is a mystery, for sure. some jewish won't walk too far on the Sabbath. And God states in the old book " if you will keep your feet from doing what they want to do "...it's really all in the writings....

These days ultra orthodox do not travel on the Shabbat because the engine requires the burning of "fire" Flipping a light switch or turning an engine key, all the same. It makes a connection, closes a circuit and technically kindles a fire.

This is why the largest percentage of Jews these days are REFORM! I do not believe in a G-d who will strike me down for such a thing. Ridiculous.

Seriously, it's just a book written by man, take from it only what makes you "good' and honors your neighbor as you do yourself. Most important mitzvot (commandment)

The rest just divides us and makes war.

reply to post by favouriteslave

Hi favourite

You wrote QUOTE

"It''s just a book written by man, take from it only what makes you "good' and honors your neighbor as you do yourself.

Most important mitzvot (commandment) - The rest just divides us and makes war."

UNQUOTE

I think you meant 'Mitzvah' ('commandment', as in Bar Mitzvah, 'son of [the] Commandment'), since 'Mitzvot' are plural (lit. 'commandments').

I'm not sure what the author of Leveticus 19:18 (part of the so-called Holiness Code) actually meant by 'neighbour' originally -

'Do not seek revenge against any of your own people, nor allow your anger to tear perpetually against them, but rather love your Neighbor as yourself. I am YHWH. "

By 'neighbour' the author (temple priest) of this passage probably meant 'fellow Yisro'elite' as opposed to, say, the goyim (gentiles/non Jews) considering the way in other parts of the Torah e.g. the Amalekites are to be exterminated utterly

(see Deuteronomy 25:17 “Remember what Amalek did to you on the way as you came out of Egypt, how he cut off your tail, those who were lagging behind you, and he did not fear Elohim - so when YHWH your clan god gives you rest from all your enemies around you, in the land that YHWH your clan god will grant you for an inheritance to possess, you shall utterly exterminate the seed of Amalek from under heaven; you will NEVER forget to do this, ever."

It would have been charming if the Torah said to love the goyim/gentiles/non Jews, but such was not the case. They were commanded not to bear grudges against fellow Yisro'elites, nor to charge them interest, nor to allow any of their fellow Yisro'elites to starve, and to love them as they love themselves...

Here's a comment on the amount of steps a Torah Abider can take on the Sabbath:


The Greek sabbatou hodos (Acts 1:12) designates the distance from the Mount of Olives to the city of Jerusalem.

In the 1st century CE the Rebbes used this term as the limit in distance any Jew could go from his or her home on the Sabbath - i.e. 2,000 cubits or about 1,000 yards (a cubit was slightly less than 18 inches).

First, the rabbis based their tradition on the last part of Exodus 16:29,30, which forbade the Israelites to go out on the Sabbath to gather manna.

"Bear in mind that YHWH has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out. So the people rested on the seventh day."*

Then, since the distance separating the people from the ark as they marched across the Jordan was 1,000 yards (Joshua 3:4), the rabbis believed this was the distance between the peoples’ tents and the tabernacle during their wilderness journeys.

They concluded it was reasonable for the people to travel that far to approach the tabernacle and worship. Rabbis supported this contention further by the fact 1,000 yards around the towns were given to the Levites (Numbers 35:5).

So when R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Gailiean Nazir is supposed to have said 'Pray that the Day does not happen in Winter, or on the Sabbath Day (i.e. when all steps must be counted), he was certainly echoing the torah-abiding Tendenz of the earliest Palestinian Messianic Community reflected in the kind of theology expressed by the Evionim ('the poor ones') a group headed up by his brother Yakkov bar Yosef in Jerusalem.

reply to post by Sigismundus

I agree with your assertion, that Paul is referring to what we now call the Old Testament.


Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
(Exodus 20:8-11)

There are no arguments in regards to the other 9 Commandments having been done away with.
9 Commandments of God are still adhered to today, by the vast majority of Protestant Christendom.
Thou shall not steal, lie, murder, covet, worship idols, etc.

Only the Sabbath Commandment is forgotten.
The only Commandment that begins with the word, "Remember..."

Originally posted by SkyLiner
Only the Sabbath Commandment is forgotten.
The only Commandment that begins with the word, "Remember..."

It's also the only Commandment which is not repeated in the New Testament.

Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. Isaiah1

For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works...Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus (Joshua*) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Hebrews4KJV

* other versions

reply to post by adjensen

All the disciples, all the writers of the New Testament, even Jesus Himself (in life and in death/sleep), kept Holy God's 7th Day Sabbath.

During Christ's earthly ministry, "The Way" was being preached to a majority that were active 7th Day Sabbath keepers.
It wasn't until after the stoning of Stephen, that the gospel would spread to include the (pagan) gentiles.

Consider Acts 13:
Paul and Barnabas in Antioch, teaching the truth in a synagogue on the Sabbath for Jew & Gentile...
"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath."
"And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God."

reply to post by Sigismundus


Yes I know Mitzvot is plural. It was considered the most important of the Mitzvot.

There were not 10 commandments but 613.

What are you all arguing about anyway? Sabbath? Seems like you are all just dividing yourselves. Who cares what it's for or who it's for. Not good!

Shabbat is what I said it was, Friday night to Sat night. Even in Spanish Saturday is Sabado, Sabbath.

reply to post by Leuan


The Lord's Day - documentary, answers all the questions (and more) put forth in your OP...

1Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”

4Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

5He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus. Mark 3

What had those in Judea done to the entire law of Our God? It's epitomised in this passage - they had so twisted it and so perverted it by the addition of the teachings and doctrines of men that they could no longer even answer his question. 

To those who keep stating "Jewish/Judaic law" and "Judaism" as if THAT is the law of Moses are completely mistaken . Jesus found in Judea the burgeoning apostate religion of man TODAY known as Judaism. - a warped hypocritical religion of man which makes His law of null effect. The entire scripture, from first to last, chronicles the building of towers like the one which came to be known as Babel. Men striving to reach heaven on their OWN works, in their OWN way and based upon their own doctrines and teachings which becomes a religion of man. Such a tower had been built in Judea that they couldn't even answer his simple question, and in fact, of such disobedience that they placed themselves in the judgement seat AS JUDGE. However, they were condemning people based on  their own rules and regulations! So much so that they plotted how to kill Jesus Christ for healing on the Sabbath. 

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30

That is our Sabbath. The rest from our burdens. Not Our Will but His Will. Let trying to save yourself go, for He is able to make you stand. The Sabbath is resting from our own works and our own striving to save ourselves, those burdens of men which were placed on that hunched woman for 18 years. It is understanding that we can NEVER do so because it is  only God who saves. 

Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6-11

What is God's rest? The Sabbath. What is the Sabbath? Resting from our own works. One day a week? No. Every day? Yes. Remember the Sabbath. Today. All who fell in the wilderness fell because of disobedience, which the Holy Spirit through Paul tells us, was unbelief. Only the children went in with Joshua.

Thinking that unbelieving and disobedient Jews have the answer is suicide. Many of them set aside Saturday, but yet none are in His rest. Are they REMEMBERING the Sabbath? No. Why not? Their hearts are hardened and do not do His Will which is to believe in the One He sent. They therefore still do their own works from their own will.  Jesus Christ said it - "Come to me and I'll give you rest". Can anyone truly and honestly state that He meant to give us just one day a week of rest? Of course not, and so the answer is that the Sabbath is seven days a week when we cease doing our own works and our own will. By all means, honour one particular day if your conscience leads you there, but do not deny that his rest is not continuous. Many Saturday Sabbath keepers forget this truth when they argue for keeping Saturday. That is a man-made rule! Nowhere is Saturday mentioned in scripture. A Christian, fully walking in Christ, simply looks at them and wonders why it is that they forget that Jesus Christ offers rest 24/7 from their own works which are the burdens that He said He'd give you rest FROM.

Scripture from start to finish shows how wayward man cannot simply put their Faith in their Creator, and how man keeps making religions based upon the doctrines of men. Those are building towers, striving to reach the Heavens based upon our own works and our own will. Sabbath is rest from that.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by SkyLiner
Only the Sabbath Commandment is forgotten.
The only Commandment that begins with the word, "Remember..."

It's also the only Commandment which is not repeated in the New Testament.

It is not mentioned in the new testament because you are supposed to remember it and not need to be continuously reminded of it. Nothing in the new testament is contrary to the old testament, there are no contradictions in the bible. If a person wants to attend church on Sunday I am sure that if fine with God but the Sabbath is still on Saturday the 7th day of the week and it is to be kept Holy. If the day had been changed Jesus or Paul would have mentioned the change at least once.