Humans kill animals then they eat them(true story)

originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: Puppylove
Don't bother. He's deaf to that common sense argument.

Yes, you can insult me and resort to ad hominem. You have no argument to oppose me. This is weakness.

a reply to: gosseyn

The problem isn't you aren't arguing for respect, your arguing for impossibilities.

I've argued in the past on here about how one can eat meat, have domesticated animals, and exist in a state of respect. If you want to argue against the mistreatment of much livestock, then we're on the same side, but your not doing that. You're arguing against animals being food, period. Which is a very silly argument.

Being eaten actually IS a survival trait for a species.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: gosseyn

The problem isn't you aren't arguing for respect, your arguing for impossibilities.

I've argued in the past on here about how one can eat meat, have domesticated animals, and exist in a state of respect. If you want to argue against the mistreatment of much livestock, then we're on the same side, but your not doing that. You're arguing against animals being food, period. Which is a very silly argument.

Being eaten actually IS a survival trait for a species.

No, you have to read the last 2 or 3 pages. It is delusional to talk of "proper respect". The non-delusional attitude is to actually recognize the reality of the human condition. There is no respect in it, there is just survival. This respect is a lie.

a reply to: gosseyn

Okay. Actually, like I said, I offered my argument. It just didn't fit what you wanted somebody to say. Should I have made that comment to Puppylove? No. I did that out of frustration because you won't let it go. You have your mind set on one thing and won't consider anything else. I saw the pic. I've seen worse from a coyote or bear. Are you going to argue with them about respect and cruelty, and death? We are all animals. Human animals eat meat. Unless you can have a viable way to grow it in a lab, we're stuck eating it, unless you choose to eat plants. You'll end up killing them, however, and like I said before, they very well could be sentient as well. How cruelty free is that?

a reply to: gosseyn

How is respect a lie? I recognize my animal and plant siblings as mutually suffering from a shared existence on a harsh planet in which competition and suffering are an inherent aspect of being alive. We both have the same enemy, which is the entropy of existence. In the end we all suffer together by necessity created in a cold hard universe that cares not one iota for the least or most complex of us. I'm no more important than the cow I eat, or the chicken I devour. I recognize that and I respect that fact, yet I kill and eat, because while I may not be more important I can, and that's how nature in all it's coldness has made things. In exchange my desire for the consumption of cow and chicken, makes it so more cow and chicken are born. In the quest for survival, that makes me their protectors, it means my existence ensures their existence. Where our respect fails, however, is that we are not proper shepherds for our flocks, if we were, we see to it that, while we do eat them, we make sure they live happily while under our care.

The fact that nature has thrown my species into a gladiatorial arena with other species does not mean I need to not have respect for my opponents, nor see and feel a sibling connection with them in our shared dilemma. They may be my siblings, but the rules of the game of life require that either one of us lives or we both die.

a reply to: Skid Mark

I wont consider anything else ? I said many times already that I EAT MEAT MYSELF. This is not about what I do or what you do or what she does, it is about how we look at the things that we do. This is the philosophy forum and this is a philosophic matter.

Those animals you speak about have no notion of 'respect', but we do. I am arguing (for at least the tenth time) that there can be no 'proper respect' for an animal that you kill. It is just a comfortable lie that we tell ourselves to justify our condition, it is just an excuse to keep doing what we do. When you say "but when we die we too become food", it is just another excuse.

Do you have respect for the animal that you kill and eat ? How is that possible ?

a reply to: gosseyn

You said yourself how it's possible. Humans understand the concept of respect. Respect is a choice. One can respect or disrespect their opponents. It's a matter of reverence and consideration, nothing more. All respect is really is a recognition of worth.

Are you saying you cannot have such recognition for that which you kill and eat? If so that's just silly.

a reply to: gosseyn
Sorry. I guess I misunderstood. Can respect be shown by killing an animal? If you make it as quick and clean as possible so it doesn't have a long drawn out death like it would have with a bear or a coyote, I guess that's the closest we can ever get to showing it respect.

a reply to: Puppylove

You cannot have respect for a sentient being that you have just killed. It is a non-sense. This respect you talk about is totally abstract because it can be only one thing : respect from yourself to yourself. Are you disagreeing that killing a living sentient animal is the pinnacle of disrespect towards that living breathing feeling sentient being ?

a reply to: gosseyn

Yes, yes I am. Killing other living beings is an act forced upon all living beings by the necessity of existence. There's nothing disrespectful about existing. The only disrespect being shown is that by nature itself, and then, only if it's a sentience of it's own. Otherwise it's simply what is. It's nature that pits sibling against sibling, not we ourselves who merely survive by natures rules.

Respect is honor in this instance, it's how you survive by natures rules, whether you treat your sibling with dignity or humiliation. Do you apologize internally for what you were forced to do, do you thank it, did you take pains to make sure it died as quickly and painlessly as possible? How far did you go to make amends for that which was forced upon you to simply live, as defined by an outside force which is existence itself? All those things could be consider giving respect.

Or did you kick the animal a few extra times, pull it's ears, gut it and watch it bleed to death. Once dead did you stand over it's corpse and teabag it? Did you laugh at it while bragging how tasty it was and calling it a stupid weak little animal? All of this would be disrespect.

Remember, killing is a requirement of life, not a choice. It's either kill or be killed. Doing either is a neutral act, as it's simply what existence is, it's how you do it and treat that which you kill that determines respect or lack thereof.

a reply to: gosseyn

Are you disagreeing that killing a living sentient animal is the pinnacle of disrespect towards that living breathing feeling sentient being ?

This brought another question to my mind and I'm sorry if it's off topic. The question is one of mercy killing. Say you're driving along and see a deer or other animal that's been hit by a car. You get out to check on it and the animal is still alive but there's nothing anyone can do. It's guts are outside its body, it's bleeding, and several bones are broken. You know that it's death will be slow and agonizing. Would it be respectful and merciful to kill it and end its misery right then and there or would it be more respectful and merciful to let it die a slow and painful death? It's an honest question and not intended as an insult.

a reply to: Puppylove


Yes, internally I feel bad every time I eat meat. I see this lump of meat in a dish and I think about the fact that it was a living breathing feeling animal just like me. And I don't lie to myself with thoughts of "proper respect", because that would be just a lie to feel more comfortable about what I do. I feel sorry, I feel ashamed of myself. Talking of "proper respect" is much easier than talking of feeling ashamed. Thus it is a lie to say that it is possible to show "proper respect" towards a living breathing feeling animal that has been transformed beyond recognition as if it was nothing more than a piece of rock that had been transformed into a house.

If you talk of respect, it is because you assume that the sentient being deserves respect. And if you assume it deserves respect, it's because you know it's sentient. If by killing it you take away everything that made it sentient, then the respect you talk about is nothing more than feel-good thoughts. It is totally abstract, it cannot have a relation to the sentient being anymore. Thinking of having 'proper respect' for a lump of meat in your dish that came from a sentient breathing living animal and that has been transformed beyond recognition is what is silly.

a reply to: gosseyn

Respect is abstract. It's a way of thinking, of thought, it alters and varies how a person looks upon a thing, concept or idea.

A person with respect towards other living things will consider these things when determine how they'll approach a situation.

A person who harbors the abstract concept of respect will when determining how they deal with other living beings, make efforts to better their quality of life before satisfying their personal needs.

A person who does not harbor the abstract concept of respect will when determining how they deal with other living beings, not consider the other beings quality of life, but consider only their own, and will willingly commit any level of atrocity towards this other being to simply getting their needs met for the least possible effort.

Respect is abstract, but it's important. Without it, everything is just things, there's no connection to anyone or anything, it's just you and a bunch of hassles.

Respect is about the worth you place on others, it's about your connection with them. The mere act of considering another person or animals needs is an act of respect. Giving an animal a safe place to live with other sibling animals, and providing them with what constitutes as a happy environment is showing respect, because you have taken the time to consider them as beings worthy of concern, and not just a resource.

a reply to: Puppylove

Respect is abstract ? Do you mean that I can take an assault weapon, go on the streets, shoot anyone in sight, and that I can afterwards say with a straight face in front of the judge that I "deeply respected" those persons I killed ? This is delusional. There is reality and there is what happens in your mind, that's two different things. You said yourself that badly treating an animal is what is disrespectful, and somehow killing it, transforming it, eating it, digesting it, is.. not disrespectful ? So tell me, is respect abstract or not ? It cannot be abstract in one instance and concrete in another. There needs to be consistency.

a reply to: gosseyn

There is consistence in purpose. You cannot compare two things outside of context and call them the same.

You kill because you need to eat to live, because you cannot live without killing, it's a simple fact of life. Don't like go roll over and die.

Killing is fine and acceptable in the right circumstances and not in others. Killing in self defense vs. killing because someone thought your shoes were ugly are not the same just because someone was killed in both cases.

Same as killing to eat and survive is in no way comparable to taking an assault rifle and unloading on a bunch of random people.

Same as taking an assault rifle and unloading on a bunch of cattle is also not acceptable behavior, it's wasteful and malicious, and has nothing to do with a need or survival.

a reply to: Puppylove

You said respect is abstract. Do you stand by that ? How can you say that respect is abstract if at the same time you think that kicking a dog for fun is a lack of respect ?

originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: gosseyn

Are you disagreeing that killing a living sentient animal is the pinnacle of disrespect towards that living breathing feeling sentient being ?

This brought another question to my mind and I'm sorry if it's off topic. The question is one of mercy killing. Say you're driving along and see a deer or other animal that's been hit by a car. You get out to check on it and the animal is still alive but there's nothing anyone can do. It's guts are outside its body, it's bleeding, and several bones are broken. You know that it's death will be slow and agonizing. Would it be respectful and merciful to kill it and end its misery right then and there or would it be more respectful and merciful to let it die a slow and painful death? It's an honest question and not intended as an insult.

In this situation I think that the animal should be killed. If it's going to die and it's going to take painful hours and nothing can be done about it, then the best thing to do in my opinion is to limit its suffering. Then if it was a human being in the same situation, it becomes more complicated. I would ask that person (if she can hear and talk) what she wants me to do. I never really thought about what I would do and I hope I will never have to make that kind of decision.

a reply to: gosseyn

It's abstract because it's a thought and a philosophical concept, it's not a real thing, what is considered respectful changes and evolves as people come to new or different conclusions as philosophy and cultures develop. Everyone defines respect differently, kind of like how each person has their own definition of what's moral and ethically right.

So technically what I consider respectful, may not be considered such to another. I'm arguing from my concept of what respect means, because it's what I believe in. Is where respect has socially evolved into for me personally. But technically in a real sense, respect only exists in terms of how the concept, in whichever form a person believes in it, alters or affects their interactions with others.

I posit that, the concept of respect, which at it's most basic is the recognition that others "have value and deserve to be treated as such" is both a good thing to have, and wholly capable of being applied to beings which one consumes to survive.

a reply to: gosseyn
Trust me, you don't want to have to make that kind of decision. It's hard.

Really what we're arguing here is each others definition of respect and whether it's applicable towards a being which we kill and eat. Clearly by my definition of respect, based upon how I perceive the reality we live in, it's completely applicable.