a former Evangelical "born again" explains why Protestantism isn't true

Originally posted by jiggerj

The message is love, compassion, truth, understanding, and humility. This simple message is suffice for the world but we have allowed the convolution of this simple message into precepts upon precepts upon precepts upon precepts and so on.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

And I'm saying that a perfect god could only give us a perfect message that cannot be adulterated in any way, no matter how imperfect we are.

If there is a message out there that concerns us, it's this: To be human is to hate as well as love, to be cruel as well as to show mercy, to be ignorant on some matters while understanding other matters. We are humble at times, and prideful at times. We can be peaceful at times, and war-like at times. We cannot be anything more, or anything less, than what defines the animal known as human.

I, on the other hand, am happy that the message is adulterated. Why you might ask? Because if the trek is harder, the reward is more satisfying, gratifying, and well deserved.

IF the message is adulterated, those that are interested in the truth will persevere and find the truth.To be human is to learn all of those emotions, just as you have stated before in a previous comment, and find which suits us as human beings best.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by colbe

If you disbelieve the basic teaching of the Trinity, you are non-Christian.

Do you have Scripture for that?

newjew, do not follow someone who rejects the teachings of the Apostles and the men they instructed.

You sound Protestant with your question and you say you're not..hmm. You privately determined Matt 28:19 does not prove the Blessed Trinity. My question for you, by whose authority do you speak? God told you the Apostles and the Christians who came after have it wrong?

Read the Scripture references below and the Fathers, look at the dates. The Didache, the Teachings of the 12 Apostles was written in the 1st century. One early Christian you post about, Tertullian believes in the Holy Trinity.

The Church does not recognize Mormon baptism as valid because Mormonism rejects the Blessed Trinity.


~ ~ ~

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).



The Didache

"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).



Ignatius of Antioch

"[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).



Justin Martyr

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).



Theophilus of Antioch

"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).



Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).



Tertullian

"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics" (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216])...

www.catholic.com...

Originally posted by colbe
newjew, do not follow someone who rejects the teachings of the Apostles and the men they instructed.

Colbe, while I appreciate your efforts, I need to point out that "Truejew" (who is neither) is a brainwashed member of an anti-Christian cult, so your words are falling on deaf ears. No amount of logic or pointing out the errors of his cult seem to have any effect on him, so, apart from prayer and the actions of the Holy Spirit, he is, sadly, a lost soul.

When you actually box him into a corner, as I have with both his crazy theology (see my unanswered questions to him in this thread) and the non-Christian behaviour of his cult leader (who, among other sins, sells fake diplomas to fellow cultists,) he either pretends to not notice your post, or he flat out lies about the issue at hand.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Well the Adventists would have that somewhat right. The lord does speak in the bible of his disgust over the people who worship when the sun is rising in the east. Its Interesting how most Christians go to church on sunday in the morning as the sun is rising in the east. Seems like its a conspiracy to you know, get people to burn in hell? Pretty smart who ever thought of that.

Originally posted by colbe

newjew, do not follow someone who rejects the teachings of the Apostles and the men they instructed.

You should follow your own advice.

Originally posted by colbe

You sound Protestant with your question and you say you're not..hmm.

The true Church does not fit into the denominations of your Babylonian harlot church and her daughters.

Originally posted by colbe

You privately determined Matt 28:19 does not prove the Blessed Trinity.

The evidence against Matthew 28:18-20 is not from myself. Go do the study.

Originally posted by colbe

My question for you, by whose authority do you speak? God told you the Apostles and the Christians who came after have it wrong?

No, the apostles and the Christians have it right. The Catholic Church does not.

Originally posted by colbe

The Didache, the Teachings of the 12 Apostles was written in the 1st century.

Incorrect. The Didache was written in the 2nd century and not by the apostles. You should not trust an anonymous writer who claims to be from someone that it is not from.

Originally posted by colbe

One early Christian you post about, Tertullian believes in the Holy Trinity.

Tertullian was the first to use the word trinity and teach it. It seems strange that it would take around 200 years before some one would teach a doctrine that the Catholic Church now believes to be so important.

Originally posted by colbe

The Church does not recognize Mormon baptism as valid because Mormonism rejects the Blessed Trinity.

I am not Mormon.

Originally posted by colbe

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19,

Matthew 28:18-20 is questionable due to the evidence against it. Even if Jesus spoke the titles, name is singular, not plural.

Originally posted by colbe

Ignatius of Antioch

"[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

Those are not trinitarian quotes.

Originally posted by colbe

Justin Martyr

Justin Martyr was not an ordained minister and his writings are not a reliable source for church doctrine.

Originally posted by colbe

Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

The above quote is not trinitarian. There is no mention of the three titles belonging to three gods or three persons.

Again, the first teaching of the trinity in writing was Tertullian around 170 years after the beginning of the Church. If the trinity was such an important doctrine, why did it take so long before it was written about?

Originally posted by adjensen

Colbe, while I appreciate your efforts, I need to point out that "Truejew" (who is neither) is a brainwashed member of an anti-Christian cult, so your words are falling on deaf ears.

A brainwashed, cult member does not follow the evidence like I do. The first teaching of the trinity in writing was not until 170 years after the start of the Church. Follow the evidence.

Originally posted by colbe

When you actually box him into a corner, as I have with both his crazy theology (see my unanswered questions to him in this thread) and the non-Christian behaviour of his cult leader (who, among other sins, sells fake diplomas to fellow cultists,) he either pretends to not notice your post, or he flat out lies about the issue at hand.

Point me to the questions and posts that I missed. If you cannot, it is just another one of your lies.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by colbe

newjew, do not follow someone who rejects the teachings of the Apostles and the men they instructed.

You should follow your own advice.

Originally posted by colbe

You sound Protestant with your question and you say you're not..hmm.

The true Church does not fit into the denominations of your Babylonian harlot church and her daughters.

Originally posted by colbe

You privately determined Matt 28:19 does not prove the Blessed Trinity.

The evidence against Matthew 28:18-20 is not from myself. Go do the study.

Originally posted by colbe

My question for you, by whose authority do you speak? God told you the Apostles and the Christians who came after have it wrong?

No, the apostles and the Christians have it right. The Catholic Church does not.

Originally posted by colbe

The Didache, the Teachings of the 12 Apostles was written in the 1st century.

Incorrect. The Didache was written in the 2nd century and not by the apostles. You should not trust an anonymous writer who claims to be from someone that it is not from.

Originally posted by colbe

One early Christian you post about, Tertullian believes in the Holy Trinity.

Tertullian was the first to use the word trinity and teach it. It seems strange that it would take around 200 years before some one would teach a doctrine that the Catholic Church now believes to be so important.

Originally posted by colbe

The Church does not recognize Mormon baptism as valid because Mormonism rejects the Blessed Trinity.

I am not Mormon.

Originally posted by colbe

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19,

Matthew 28:18-20 is questionable due to the evidence against it. Even if Jesus spoke the titles, name is singular, not plural.

Originally posted by colbe

Ignatius of Antioch

"[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

Those are not trinitarian quotes.

Originally posted by colbe

Justin Martyr

Justin Martyr was not an ordained minister and his writings are not a reliable source for church doctrine.

Originally posted by colbe

Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

The above quote is not trinitarian. There is no mention of the three titles belonging to three gods or three persons.

Again, the first teaching of the trinity in writing was Tertullian around 170 years after the beginning of the Church. If the trinity was such an important doctrine, why did it take so long before it was written about?

I am not replying to your 10 divided comments. You do not respect my request, you only wish to go on and on.

Your repeated one line sentence denials are boring and show your ignorance. It's history, it's been revealed for 2000 years, a tenant of the faith, God is Trinitarian, three divine persons in one God, always was and always will be.

Read the Catechism, there are beautiful paragraphs on the Blessed Trinity ~ here, three - in brief:

Paragraph
265 By the grace of Baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity, here on earth in the obscurity of faith, and after death in eternal light (cf. Paul VI, CPG § 9).

266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

267 Inseparable in what they are, the divine persons are also inseparable in what they do. But within the single divine operation each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, especially in the divine missions of the Son's Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

www.scborromeo.org...

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by colbe
newjew, do not follow someone who rejects the teachings of the Apostles and the men they instructed.

Colbe, while I appreciate your efforts, I need to point out that "Truejew" (who is neither) is a brainwashed member of an anti-Christian cult, so your words are falling on deaf ears. No amount of logic or pointing out the errors of his cult seem to have any effect on him, so, apart from prayer and the actions of the Holy Spirit, he is, sadly, a lost soul.

When you actually box him into a corner, as I have with both his crazy theology (see my unanswered questions to him in this thread) and the non-Christian behaviour of his cult leader (who, among other sins, sells fake diplomas to fellow cultists,) he either pretends to not notice your post, or he flat out lies about the issue at hand.

You are dear adjensen, I just saw your post. newjew drives me nuts. He quotes Catholic saints then denies the faith.

All to follow a recent heretical/apostate preacher. You would think newjew would notice LDS and RLDS teachings and the year their man and break aways from LDS came up with them and put two and two together.

Part of it has to be some people are brought up on anti-Catholic writings. Conversions are grace given in answer to prayer, that's it. We can pray.


God bless you,


colbe

Originally posted by colbe

I am not replying to your 10 divided comments.

Hiding from evidence is what brainwashed people do.

Originally posted by colbe

You do not respect my request, you only wish to go on and on.

You show disrespect when you change my username to "newjew", but I have not made a deal about it. I continued on with patience, a fruit of the Spirit.

Originally posted by colbe

Your repeated one line sentence denials are boring and show your ignorance.

Thinking yourself to be wise, you become a fool.

Originally posted by colbe

It's history, it's been revealed for 2000 years, a tenant of the faith, God is Trinitarian, three divine persons in one God, always was and always will be.

You have only been able to prove that the trinity doctrine is 1800 years old.

I went to the vigil Mass yesterday evening. This is Sunday's 2nd reading of Scripture.

1 Corinthians 12: 12 - 30
12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
18 But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
19 If all were a single organ, where would the body be?
20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
23 and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?


I took extra notice because I like 1Cor 12:28, it shows the importance of prophecy. And I noticed...we are baptized by God the Holy Spirit into one body....and there should be no discord in the body.

"Discord" means - disagreement between people

God is not going to put up with the divisions in Christianity much
longer. The prophesied "awakening" is getting closer and closer, this
generation is going to experience it.

After this divine "awakening" also called the Great Warning or the illumination of conscience, the only thing standing in the way of Christians believing
as one will be a "no", your choosing not to accept what you've been
shown by God.

If you reject the Great Warning, say it wasn't divine in origin, ah, instead, the plans of the one world religion.
No! Only God knows every moment of your life. We can all prepare for the Great Warning by regular confession of our mortal sins to God and a daily prayer life.

blessings,


colbe

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by colbe

I am not replying to your 10 divided comments.

Hiding from evidence is what brainwashed people do.

Originally posted by colbe

You do not respect my request, you only wish to go on and on.

You show disrespect when you change my username to "newjew", but I have not made a deal about it. I continued on with patience, a fruit of the Spirit.

Originally posted by colbe

Your repeated one line sentence denials are boring and show your ignorance.

Thinking yourself to be wise, you become a fool.

Originally posted by colbe

It's history, it's been revealed for 2000 years, a tenant of the faith, God is Trinitarian, three divine persons in one God, always was and always will be.

You have only been able to prove that the trinity doctrine is 1800 years old.

I did not notice you changed your avatar name. Your avatar pic stayed the same. I didn't disrespect
you at all. Look who you are disrespecting. newjew and truejew...Judaism rejects Our Lord!

Divided comments again, oh well. Your last statement.... it' so sweet.

I pray you become Catholic, I do hope so... I don't see how now, prayerfully, when the Great Warning takes place.


remember, okay?


colbe

reply to post by colbe


I did not change my username. I am not sure if that is even possible to do.

Christianity is the only valid form of Judaism. Jesus Christ and all apostles were Jews. Christians are the seed of Abraham.

reply to post by vaelamin


So you really think that a 'loving father god' is going to send people to hell simply because they have as their main day of worship something different than what others have? That kind of S.O.B. god would be a real P****. (self edited) All those people loving God and worshipping Him will go to Hell?? Sorry. I'm not buying into that.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

Colbe, while I appreciate your efforts, I need to point out that "Truejew" (who is neither) is a brainwashed member of an anti-Christian cult, so your words are falling on deaf ears.

A brainwashed, cult member does not follow the evidence like I do. The first teaching of the trinity in writing was not until 170 years after the start of the Church. Follow the evidence.

You don't follow any evidence in some sort of unbiased "quest for the truth" -- you ignore evidence that is opposed to your view, invent evidence that is in favour of it, and the criticize others for not seeing it your way.

When you actually box him into a corner, as I have with both his crazy theology (see my unanswered questions to him in this thread) and the non-Christian behaviour of his cult leader (who, among other sins, sells fake diplomas to fellow cultists,) he either pretends to not notice your post, or he flat out lies about the issue at hand.

Point me to the questions and posts that I missed. If you cannot, it is just another one of your lies.

It's one of many, but you ignored the direct questions in this post:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

There are clearly multiple manifestations of God in a number of places in the Bible, both Old and New Testament -- explain them, starting with that one.

I have some issues with the Catholic Church. There are things that are absolutely, positively created by men. However, I have many, many, many more issues with the born again evangelicals. (Not Protestants, the non-denominational groups that are of recent invention)

The issues I have with the Catholic Church are
1. Mary was not devine. She did not remain a virgin and should not be worshipped or prayed to.
2. Peter was not above the other apostles and is not a "pope" at all.
3. Much of scripture was thrown out at the council of Nicea to put together what is now known as the Holy Bible.
4. The Vatican is a government entity with untold wealth and is rooted in this world, not in Heaven.
5. A great deal of knowledge and wealth is hoarded and kept from the rest of the world as well as the members of their church.
There are about 95 more that are enumerated here:
www.luther.de...

Even with these issues, they are far above and far better than the new age evangelical groups out there. These groups are founded on stupidity and ignorance and I have no respect for them at all.

Originally posted by adjensen

Yes, they can. Are you saying that God isn't omnipotent?

God can be omnipotent without being three gods/persons and actually the trinity limits God to just three places and three roles. You believe that the Father cannot be in heaven, manifest in the flesh as the Son of God, and descending from heaven at the same time.

Originally posted by adjensen

So God looked down from heaven at himself,

God looked down from heaven at His Son, Himself manifest in the flesh and humbled as a man.

Originally posted by adjensen

and described himself as both father and son? And in the case of the baptism, also sent himself down as a dove?

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 (KJV)
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Originally posted by adjensen

You don't follow any evidence in some sort of unbiased "quest for the truth" -- you ignore evidence that is opposed to your view, invent evidence that is in favour of it, and the criticize others for not seeing it your way.

You have not provided any evidence of the trinity being written about before around 200 AD, around 170 years after the Church began. And the writer was a man who was kicked out of the Church because he joined the Montanists. His trinitarian writings occurred after he joined the Montanists.

I have not ignored, nor invented evidence.

Originally posted by adjensen

It's one of many, but you ignored the direct questions in this post:

I answered most of those questions before and did not think I needed to again, but I went ahead in the post above.

You say many...show the rest.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
I have some issues with the Catholic Church. There are things that are absolutely, positively created by men. However, I have many, many, many more issues with the born again evangelicals. (Not Protestants, the non-denominational groups that are of recent invention)

The issues I have with the Catholic Church are
1. Mary was not devine.

Who says that she was divine?

She did not remain a virgin

While I don't necessarily disagree with you, what is your evidence that she didn't? Were you there? If "brothers of Jesus" meant actual children of Mary (as opposed to children of Joseph and a prior wife, or cousins,) why would he have told John to take care of her?

and should not be worshipped or prayed to.

Who worships Mary? And what's wrong with praying to her? My wife died three years ago, and I talk to her every morning and sometimes if I'm having a hard time of things, I ask her to pray for me -- is that wrong?

I won't bother with the others, but they're all classic Reformation era complaints, some with validity, but most with doctrinal responses that you can look up if you want to know what the church says about them.

Originally posted by truejew
God looked down from heaven at His Son, Himself manifest in the flesh and humbled as a man.

You're still not answering the question -- you said earlier that, when Jesus spoke, it was God speaking. In that scene, is God present in the person of Jesus, in the person (well, animal) of the dove, or in the voice from heaven -- all three are described as individual entities, so if you say there is just one God, and one person, then you only get to pick one of the three.

Originally posted by adjensen

and described himself as both father and son? And in the case of the baptism, also sent himself down as a dove?

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 (KJV)
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

That doesn't really answer the question that I asked you, and you missed the line before 19-20:

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18 KJV)

See the word "by" there? If your claims were correct, that word would be "as", not "by".

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by adjensen

You don't follow any evidence in some sort of unbiased "quest for the truth" -- you ignore evidence that is opposed to your view, invent evidence that is in favour of it, and the criticize others for not seeing it your way.

You have not provided any evidence of the trinity being written about before around 200 AD, around 170 years after the Church began.

What are you talking about? I gave you quotes from four people, all of whom died before 200AD, which clearly refer to God the Father and Jesus as separate individuals. In addition, you have no evidence that Matthew 28:19 is not original to the text (saying that the best proof is Acts 2:38 is idiotic, I hope you realize that.)