*Reality Check Video* Ben Swann breaks down Piers Morgan's UK vs US violence rate.

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posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by Logos23
What the UK and the US constitutes as a "violent crime" differs and thus is reflected in their violent crime statistics. The UK categorizes MORE types of crime as violent crime than the US does.Every other country also has differing idea's on which crimes constitute violent crime and as a result what get's included in the violent crime statistics for that country..a clue to this should have been South Africa showing favourably as having less violent crime than the UK....doe's anybody actually believe that the UK is a more dangerous place to live than South Africa...seriously?!

The way in which crime including violent crime is reported and recorded differs between the UK and the US...

Overall violent crime in England and Wales as dropped by 47% from 1995 to 2010/2011 and at the moment the trend remains pretty much stable...

Even though violent crime as reduced significantly since 1995 the UK's and the rest of the world's PERCEPTION of how much violent crime occurs here goes in the opposite direction and people BELIEVE there is MORE violent crime than there was 17 years ago....but this contradicts the actual violent crime trend's. This mean's the only presumption that can be made is that the public are getting this idea of PERCEIVED increase in violent crime that doesn't exist from somewhere....

I think another reality check is let's not believe everything the media tells us and the manipulation of the truth they exhibit. I'm not here to say that my country doesn't have it's own problem's...but I am sick of the way in which the truth and statistics are twisted.


Are you SURE UK's definition of crime envelops more crimes than the U.S. does? Where did you get this information from?

And second, why does the EU name UK as the second most violent country in the union?




posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 09:54 PM
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Originally posted by eLPresidente

Are you SURE UK's definition of crime envelops more crimes than the U.S. does? Where did you get this information from?

And second, why does the EU name UK as the second most violent country in the union?



Violent crime in the UK also includes things like vandalism, threat of violence which can be just cases of people having shouting matches in the streets at night. In the evening, most the pubs and clubs in just about every British town open up - there's a strong nightlife here wherever you go compared to the states. Because of powers vested into the Police where they can ask people to move along for being drunk & disorderly or otherwise unpleasant and people who refuse to move, return the area or are picked up for being D&D are booked as violent crime.

Although as long as you don't swear at or swing for your arresting officer you'll probably just get a slap on the wrist and a night in the cells.

I would agree that the UK is probably the most violent member out of North and West Europe however, perhaps Ireland excluded. But that said, these are just about all non-gun owning countries too.

As for UK being the second most violent country in the Union, it's total nonsense. Please keep in mind that the Union includes countries which include Italy, Spain, Greece, Poland, Romania all of whom have very corrupt police forces and under-reporting of crimes is a serious issue as well as again, reporting methods being very different.

Despite public perception exacerbated by the Daily Mail and other sensationalist newspapers as well as the human condition to assume yesterday was better than today; there is no crime wave. Almost every violent crime is at a 20+ year low even with reporting techniques and people-police communication being better than ever.

UK Policemen don't carry guns and it's not considered to be a particularly dangerous job and it's not because there is a violent crime problem.

Quoting UN statistics, in 2011 the US had a murder rate of 4.8 people per 100,000 persons. The UK had a murder rate of 1.2 people per 100,000 persons, four times less. How Americans seem to think they have ground to stand on when arguing that the UK, let alone other anti-gun owning states in the EU are less safe is simply laughable.

The points raised in the video are absurd grasping for straw acts and completely null and void to a subjective mind.



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 10:02 PM
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Originally posted by RedmoonMWC

Originally posted by doubledutch
reply to post by TheMindWar
 


not true - if someone breaks into your house you can use reasonable force to stop them or get rid of them... if you have a shot gun handy and feel they will kill, you you can use it.

do your research


Really? When did this change?
Farm tenant arrested after burglars shot was 'plagued by break-ins'
03/09/2012
www.telegraph.co.uk...


In the UK, homeowners who defend themselves against burglars and violent criminals are routinely arrested and thrown in prison
www.naturalnews.com...

Tony Martin
en.wikipedia.org...(farmer)


From your own source:


The case prompted David Cameron to announce that home owners and shopkeepers would have the right to protect themselves against burglars and robbers.

Last year, Peter Flanagan, 59, who fatally stabbed a burglar armed with a machete at his home in Salford, Great Manchester, escaped prosecution after the Crown Prosecution Service ruled that he was acting in self defence.


Your second source is merely repeating your first.

Argument invalid, self defense is now acceptable within reason. (fear of ones life, well being).

As other posters have also pointed out, what counts / gets logged as a violent crime in the UK, may not have involved any violence at all. The figures are unreliable as a result of this.

Also, the farmers who got arrested will have been arrested as normal procedure, if someone attacks me in the street and I defend myself, I too will be arrested until enquiries have been carried out, then as long as the police are satisfied it was self defense, released without charge. (although funnily enough, it will still be logged as a violent crime, go figure).
edit on 9/1/13 by woogleuk because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 10:02 PM
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reply to post by eLPresidente
 


Some links you may find interesting and may answer some of your question's

recent statistics on crime and criminal justice in the European Union (EU) and its Member States

Pay particular attention to what it has to say about comparing the different countries crime statistics within the EU and how to do so is misleading and that direct comparison's of crime rate's from the different countries should be avoided. And how it also say's that the best way to get a picture is to look at long term crime trend's within each country....and that at a country level that violent crime as shown a notable fall in the UK .


Also.........

Home Office Statistical Bulletin - Crime In England And Wales 2010/11



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by eLPresidente
I know several people that had their (and their loved ones) lives threatened and the only thing that got them out of the dangerous situations was a household firearm.

I'm fortunate enough to not have been put into a situation like that.

Over 2 million people a year use firearms in self-defense.


Yet I don't know anyone or even know of anyone who has ever been in a situation where a firearm would have helped or even been necessary to get them out of a difficult situation.

Nothing at all suggests that over 2 million people (Or 400,000, accounting for population differences) a year in the UK aren't murdered as a result of not having a firearm.

If you are out and someone tries to start a fist fight with you, instead of running, talking it down, even fighting back with your fists, in the US is the status quo to literally pull out a gun, point it at them and threaten their life? That's literally considered to be a rational, acceptable response?

That you actually need them to keep you safe, and we don't, what does that tell you about the US?



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by sajuek

Originally posted by eLPresidente

Are you SURE UK's definition of crime envelops more crimes than the U.S. does? Where did you get this information from?

And second, why does the EU name UK as the second most violent country in the union?



Violent crime in the UK also includes things like vandalism, threat of violence which can be just cases of people having shouting matches in the streets at night. In the evening, most the pubs and clubs in just about every British town open up - there's a strong nightlife here wherever you go compared to the states. Because of powers vested into the Police where they can ask people to move along for being drunk & disorderly or otherwise unpleasant and people who refuse to move, return the area or are picked up for being D&D are booked as violent crime.

Although as long as you don't swear at or swing for your arresting officer you'll probably just get a slap on the wrist and a night in the cells.

I would agree that the UK is probably the most violent member out of North and West Europe however, perhaps Ireland excluded. But that said, these are just about all non-gun owning countries too.

As for UK being the second most violent country in the Union, it's total nonsense. Please keep in mind that the Union includes countries which include Italy, Spain, Greece, Poland, Romania all of whom have very corrupt police forces and under-reporting of crimes is a serious issue as well as again, reporting methods being very different.

Despite public perception exacerbated by the Daily Mail and other sensationalist newspapers as well as the human condition to assume yesterday was better than today; there is no crime wave. Almost every violent crime is at a 20+ year low even with reporting techniques and people-police communication being better than ever.

UK Policemen don't carry guns and it's not considered to be a particularly dangerous job and it's not because there is a violent crime problem.

Quoting UN statistics, in 2011 the US had a murder rate of 4.8 people per 100,000 persons. The UK had a murder rate of 1.2 people per 100,000 persons, four times less. How Americans seem to think they have ground to stand on when arguing that the UK, let alone other anti-gun owning states in the EU are less safe is simply laughable.

The points raised in the video are absurd grasping for straw acts and completely null and void to a subjective mind.


So we have another claim that UK's figures of violent crimes envelop more than the U.S. to the point that it could really make a difference in the more than 4x increase of rate of violence in the UK in comparison to the US? Are you sure? Where did you get this information from? I'd like to see it as well.

As for the EU's second most violent nation, well the UK is still holding that brilliant title, maybe we can wait for another nation to take it from them. If its nonsense, I think maybe you have to take that up with census producers in the EU. Nations with corrupt police under-reporting violent crimes, I don't think that has much to do with what we're talking about. How are you sure there isn't any under-reporting in by police in the UK? Are they somehow above under-reporting and corruption?

I'd like to know which points raised in the video are, "absurd, grasping for straw acts and completely null and void to a subjective mind" all of them? some of them? which ones?

As it still stands, UK is the second most violent country in the EU. It is not nonsense, if you can quote UN figures, what makes it more valid than figures and factoids from the EU?
edit on 9-1-2013 by eLPresidente because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by eLPresidente

Originally posted by sajuek

Originally posted by eLPresidente

Are you SURE UK's definition of crime envelops more crimes than the U.S. does? Where did you get this information from?

And second, why does the EU name UK as the second most violent country in the union?



Violent crime in the UK also includes things like vandalism, threat of violence which can be just cases of people having shouting matches in the streets at night. In the evening, most the pubs and clubs in just about every British town open up - there's a strong nightlife here wherever you go compared to the states. Because of powers vested into the Police where they can ask people to move along for being drunk & disorderly or otherwise unpleasant and people who refuse to move, return the area or are picked up for being D&D are booked as violent crime.

Although as long as you don't swear at or swing for your arresting officer you'll probably just get a slap on the wrist and a night in the cells.

I would agree that the UK is probably the most violent member out of North and West Europe however, perhaps Ireland excluded. But that said, these are just about all non-gun owning countries too.

As for UK being the second most violent country in the Union, it's total nonsense. Please keep in mind that the Union includes countries which include Italy, Spain, Greece, Poland, Romania all of whom have very corrupt police forces and under-reporting of crimes is a serious issue as well as again, reporting methods being very different.

Despite public perception exacerbated by the Daily Mail and other sensationalist newspapers as well as the human condition to assume yesterday was better than today; there is no crime wave. Almost every violent crime is at a 20+ year low even with reporting techniques and people-police communication being better than ever.

UK Policemen don't carry guns and it's not considered to be a particularly dangerous job and it's not because there is a violent crime problem.

Quoting UN statistics, in 2011 the US had a murder rate of 4.8 people per 100,000 persons. The UK had a murder rate of 1.2 people per 100,000 persons, four times less. How Americans seem to think they have ground to stand on when arguing that the UK, let alone other anti-gun owning states in the EU are less safe is simply laughable.

The points raised in the video are absurd grasping for straw acts and completely null and void to a subjective mind.


So we have another claim that UK's figures of violent crimes envelop more than the U.S.? Are you sure? Where did you get this information from? I'd like to see it as well.

As for the EU's second most violent nation, well the UK is still holding that brilliant title, maybe we can wait for another nation to take it from them. If its nonsense, I think maybe you have to take that up with census producers in the EU. Nations with corrupt police under-reporting violent crimes, I don't think that has much to do with what we're talking about. How are you sure there isn't any under-reporting in by police in the UK? Are they somehow above under-reporting and corruption?

I'd like to know which points raised in the video are, "absurd, grasping for straw acts and completely null and void to a subjective mind" all of them? some of them? which ones?

I hope you're not just mad because EU named the UK second most violent nation in the Union and somebody actually exposed it.



Although the crime rates are posted per 100,000 people.If the populations were switched U.K 300,000,000 and U.S 60,000,000.I think the crime rates would be vastly different.



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 10:41 PM
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Originally posted by eLPresidente

So we have another claim that UK's figures of violent crimes envelop more than the U.S.? Are you sure? Where did you get this information from? I'd like to see it as well.

As for the EU's second most violent nation, well the UK is still holding that brilliant title, maybe we can wait for another nation to take it from them. If its nonsense, I think maybe you have to take that up with census producers in the EU. Nations with corrupt police under-reporting violent crimes, I don't think that has much to do with what we're talking about. How are you sure there isn't any under-reporting in by police in the UK? Are they somehow above under-reporting and corruption?

I'd like to know which points raised in the video are, "absurd, grasping for straw acts and completely null and void to a subjective mind" all of them? some of them? which ones?

I hope you're not just mad because EU named the UK second most violent nation in the Union and somebody actually exposed it.



Well, all we have for the information on the UK is obviously our internal reporting which was never intended for international comparison. The whole concept is utterly ridiculous but it doesn't take much consideration to oust the conclusions you yanks are making as bogus.

Even if the UK were haven of violent crime, doesn't 2,000 per 100,000 residents seem a little extreme to you? Even the video is suggests that the UK is a third more violent than South Africa. Do you really, honestly believe that this is true?

South Africa has places referred to as what would translate to "Rape Road" literally because people trawl along in cars every day and look for men and woman to sexually assault and murder. Speaking to a friend who used to live in Johannesburg, this was actually a pretty popular method of suicide.

It has a murder rate around 20x our own - somewhere with 30% more violence than South Africa, why do we kill one another 20x less often. Using your logic, the safest place in the world to live would be Bolivia which reported 0 murders in 2011. Do you believe that too?

Anyway, just to destroy this silly video.

1. "FBI statistics are xxx, Piers used xxx" They used different sources which account for crimes between different periods and betwen different dates. For example, Piers' source from the Met office actually counts gun deaths from September to September. Even then, even if the numbers were slightly different it's apples and oranges because even the FBI still paint the same picture; Americans love to shoot at one another.

2. "The US has the most guns but is ONLY the has the 28th highest in the world..." With few exceptions, all of the 27 more violent countries are third world or close enough to it and renowned for their violence. Just about every nation which cares actually has a travel advisory against visiting the three cited as "prime examples" in the video provided. It's a stupid comparison and isn't actually saying anything good about the US at all.

3. "UK is second most violent..." Already addressed. The problem of under-reporting does exist for some crimes e.g. Rape, but corruption and under reporting are not UK issues due to the high level of accountability for the police which involves a highly successful private, third party commission which reviews all of their doings as well as the opportunity to report crime anonymously and not having to face your attackers in court personally if you do not wish to. Amongst many other steps and audits taken to ensure the integrity and comprehensiveness of policework..

4. "Based on this, the UK is the one example we need to keep our crime-busting guns!"

Even if there were any truth in this video - It's still ignoring the rest of Europe and the civil world which, like the UK in reality, beats the US in crime thoroughly and consistently. Many of these countries which are even safer than ours have even stricter gun laws that the UK, and I would welcome a full ban on firearms, not the compromise we currently have today which allows owning a shotgun under some circumstances.
edit on 9-1-2013 by sajuek because: (no reason given)


**Edit: Well, I am using UN statistics for murder rates, because, well, I hate to break it to you but the EU doesn't make them for the US
And a murder is a murder, unlike what constitutes violent crime there aren't really 2 ways around it.
edit on 9-1-2013 by sajuek because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by sajuek

Originally posted by eLPresidente




Well, all we have for the information on the UK is obviously our internal reporting which was never intended for international comparison. The whole concept is utterly ridiculous but it doesn't take much consideration to oust the conclusions you yanks are making as bogus.

Even if the UK were haven of violent crime, doesn't 2,000 per 100,000 residents seem a little extreme to you? Even the video is suggests that the UK is a third more violent than South Africa. Do you really, honestly believe that this is true?

South Africa has places referred to as what would translate to "Rape Road" literally because people trawl along in cars every day and look for men and woman to sexually assault and murder. Speaking to a friend who used to live in Johannesburg, this was actually a pretty popular method of suicide.

It has a murder rate around 20x our own - somewhere with 30% more violence than South Africa, why do we kill one another 20x less often. Using your logic, the safest place in the world to live would be Bolivia which reported 0 murders in 2011. Do you believe that too?

Anyway, just to destroy this silly video.

1. "FBI statistics are xxx, Piers used xxx" They used different sources which account for crimes between different periods and betwen different dates. For example, Piers' source from the Met office actually counts gun deaths from September to September. Even then, even if the numbers were slightly different it's apples and oranges because even the FBI still paint the same picture; Americans love to shoot at one another.

2. "The US has the most guns but is ONLY the has the 28th highest in the world..." With few exceptions, all of the 27 more violent countries are third world or close enough to it and renowned for their violence. Just about every nation which cares actually has a travel advisory against visiting the three cited as "prime examples" in the video provided. It's a stupid comparison and isn't actually saying anything good about the US at all.

3. "UK is second most violent..." Already addressed. The problem of under-reporting does exist for some crimes e.g. Rape, but corruption and under reporting are not UK issues due to the high level of accountability for the police which involves a highly successful private, third party commission which reviews all of their doings as well as the opportunity to report crime anonymously and not having to face your attackers in court personally if you do not wish to. Amongst many other steps and audits taken to ensure the integrity and comprehensiveness of policework..

4. "Based on this, the UK is the one example we need to keep our crime-busting guns!"

Even if there were any truth in this video - It's still ignoring the rest of Europe and the civil world which, like the UK in reality, beats the US in crime thoroughly and consistently. Many of these countries which are even safer than ours have even stricter gun laws that the UK, and I would welcome a full ban on firearms, not the compromise we currently have today which allows owning a shotgun under some circumstances.
edit on 9-1-2013 by sajuek because: (no reason given)


**Edit: Well, I am using UN statistics for murder rates, because, well, I hate to break it to you but the EU doesn't make them for the US
And a murder is a murder, unlike what constitutes violent crime there aren't really 2 ways around it.
edit on 9-1-2013 by sajuek because: (no reason given)


So let me get this straight. Just because you don't believe in the stats, it makes them not true? Hmm...I guess....

And to your 4 points of 'destroying the silly video'

1) Apples to oranges? Did you really 'destroy' that point?

2) Stupid comparison? You called it a name. Did you really destroy that point?

3) Under-reporting? Just because YOU think UK reports are clean and other nations all have corrupt crime reporting, doesn't mean its true. Can you prove this? Did you really destroy that point?

4) Even if there is any truth to this video? Please correct me if I'm wrong but earlier you said the content in this video is absurd and grasping for straws, now you are going back on that and giving it the possibility of being credible? Did you really destroy that point?

Seriously, if you're going to say you're about to 'destroy this silly video', you better do it. My expectations were high.

Most of what you are saying is what you think. The only stat you pulled was the one from the UN but according to your own logic, the EU doesn't have correct reporting then I'm going to use that against you and say your UN figures are B.S. as well because those have the possibility of being contaminated as well due to faulty reporting by corrupt entities. See how silly you sound?

P.S. there is CLEAR evidence as supplied by Gary Kleck, criminologist, self-avowed DEMOCRAT and FORMER gun control advocate who did a large study to come to the conclusion that gun control does not work in the U.S. and that guns in fact lower overall crime rate as it saves (millions) far more people than it kills (thousands).

Read: Guns and Violence: A Summary of the Field.
edit on 9-1-2013 by eLPresidente because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:22 AM
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reply to post by eLPresidente
 


They should ban people in the UK. Obviously their violent tendencies are the worst in Europe.......




S&F



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:46 AM
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reply to post by eLPresidente
 


Take it from a British person who has had many dealings with the law, some bad, most good.....

There are many, many things in the UK that are recorded as violent crimes that would not be recorded as so anywhere else in the world.

Just shouting abuse at someone in the street then getting arrested for it is recorded as a violent crime, in fact, this is probably where most the numbers come from believe it or not.

"A violent crime or crime of violence is a crime in which the offender uses or threatens to use violent force upon the victim."

Note, threatens to use violence, not actually carry out a violent attack.

Robbery is counted as a violent crime, even if the victim isn't hurt.

Smashing a bottle in the street is reported as a violent crime.

There are many examples of non physical violent crime, but they are still recorded as violent crime.

Why is this? Does our reporting system need a serious overhaul? Are the police just trying to secure extra funding from the government?

I don't know, I doubt many people outside of law and government know. The fact is though Britain has got this "2nd worst" reputation through records, records that in any other country wouldn't exist due to the nature of the many crimes committed being non-violent (physical).



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:48 AM
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reply to post by woogleuk
 


Trust me, MANY crimes in the US are reported as Violent crimes. You can get your significant other thrown into jail, just for saying they hit you........without proof.

I wonder whats the stats for violent crimes that are not being reported.......



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by eLPresidente


Are you SURE UK's definition of crime envelops more crimes than the U.S. does? Where did you get this information from?




I never said that UK's definition of overall crime envelops more than the US does.....I said that UK's definition of VIOLENT crime as used for counting purposes in violent crime statistics envelops more crimes than the US definition and what it uses in it's own counting rules for it's own violent crime statistics.

I'm finding it hard to find my original sources that clarify this as my hardrive died on me and I lost it.....but I believe that the following sources and the information they contain should drive home the point just as well. Although you did ignore my last attempt at showing you some very real links from credible sources that reflected some truth's on this whole matter....but someone else may be interested. Or someone else may be able to show me something conflicting from another CREDIBLE source....I'm always open to learning or being pulled up if I'm wrong.

FBI - Crime in the United States - Violent Crime

Pay close attention to the first part under the heading Definition. It clearly describes how the FBI's UCR programme which is the official data on crime in the US only regard's four offences as violent crime in it's violent crime statistics.

as opposed to the UK......

When you click on this next link go down to " counting rules for violence against the person" and click on that.

Home Office Counting Rules for Counting and Classifying Crime


See the exhaustive list of what is considered a violent crime against the person for statistical purposes here? It also includes conspiracy to murder....threats to kill..... harassment.... creating public fear or alarm or distress....possession of firearm offences.... possession of other weapons.....possession of a blade in a public place ...assault without injury....child abduction..........and there are many more.
UK violent crime figures also envelopes ALL sexual offences and not just forced rape as the US does.....and also robbery as the US does also....and there are more.

As I have already mentioned I am more than happy to be held under scrutiny for any of my links and sources and the information they contain and also any interpretation's......but I feel there are some who have an agenda and are more than happy to spout crap without even doing some research. I'm pretty sure that as we don't have gun culture here in the UK it suits many to portray the British people as rabid violent animal's in the absence of gun ownership.

And again I'm not here to say we don't have our own problem's.....but let's talk facts and logic...not media hype and propaganda.

AND....just for the record I don't believe that banning gun's in the US is a viable answer to any of their problem's.



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 01:41 AM
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reply to post by Logos23
 


Sadly I fear this is nothing more than a really bad, failed attempt at taking a pop at the British members of ATS who voice their opinion over gun control in the USA.

As you, I and other members have stated, the crime figures are possibly the worst things to look at to get an idea of actual physical violent crime.

Unfortunately these facts will fall upon deaf ears.

At the end of the day, I feel safe walking down the streets and sending my kid to school, so I couldn't really give a tarts furry cup.



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 01:48 AM
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Thanks to the OP for linking to the Ben Swann presentation on guns and violent crime. It's too bad that Alex Jones did not have the same numbers to throw back at Piers Morgan.

The fact of the matter is that Americans have the right to bear arms by law as written in the 2nd amendment to the constitution. That is the end of the argument as far as I am concerned. Personally, I think there should be a military grade assault rifle in every American home and that every American should be taught a comprehensive course on how to use it.

The only exceptions to this should be those who are physically or mentally unfit.

I think Americans need to re-up on their responsibilities as citizens. There should be a comprehensive course on that too.

I think a lot of problems in American society might be lessened if that happened. Citizenship includes rights and responsibilities. The quality of American life is suffering, I think, because of a failure by citizens at all levels to exercise their responsibility to uphold the constitution. The worst offenders in this have been the last two Presidents of the United States.

When you have the President of the United States ignoring Congressional subpoenas as George W. Bush did, shipping political prisoners overseas for torture as George W. Bush did, promoting the idea of pre-emptive war as George W. Bush did, initiating war under false pretenses as George W. Bush did, executing Americans without trial as Barack Obama has done, sending out assassination squads as Barack Obama has done, ruling by executive order as George W. Bush did and as Barack Obama is starting to do . . . then you have a serious constitutional crisis in America.

I don't think Americans know who they are anymore.

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posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 02:35 AM
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The next thing you know, we are going to have washed up journalism hacks from England coming over to the US and campaigning to amend the 2nd amendment or strike it altogether from the Constitution.

I've got an amendment for it. Change it from the "right" to bear arms to the "responsibility" to bear arms.



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 02:48 AM
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Originally posted by eLPresidente

Stuff.



It's easy to misconstrue/purposely misinterpret information I lay out in front of you, but please allow me to reiterate.

1. That it's a non-point. The video is calling data into question and calling Piers Morgan a liar, yet it's clear that they are referring to different sources, one which gun nuts also like to use themselves when it suits them. The 11k statistic in question is actually used in one of the threads currently being thrown around in the thread below.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And even if the data provided by Piers wasn't stated anywhere else it wouldn't make any difference because it's still saying the exact same thing and does not make his point any less valid. If the UK has 35 or 59 gun death or the US has 8,000 or 11,000 there's no difference for the sake of the argument he is trying to make, thus making such an argument against it is simply blowing hot air.

2. Yes. Because you can look at it yourself and see that it is a stupid comparison. Saying "Hey, there are 168 countries in the world that shoot less people per captia than us! I know it sucks that we're bigger murderers than anyone else in the first world, but hey look at these 3 countries out of the only 27 who are more murderous than ourselves which are basically in a state of civil war.!" does not support their argument of "Guns r good".

3. You're detracting from the main point of number 3 which was "Already addressed" referring to reporting methods. I see you've ignored the UK-South Africa comparison again because you know it completely debases your point and even suggesting that the UK is more violent than SA is ludicrous even for you.

But as for corruption which is the other part of accounting for why Spain, Italy and Greece don't report more crime, not only is the information readily available online if you really find it that unbelievable that Mediterranean police forces have a corruption problem, I best know it from actually travelling to these places and meeting the people myself and hearing their complaints as well as witnessing it myself.

Just ask any business owner in Italy who sees the police turn a blind eye to the Mafia-esque protection racket he has to pay up for while they refuse to investigate anything which isn't a government, city citizen or media-related affair. Or the Greek cops you can pay €30 to and they will put over the radio not to pull you over so you can drink drive that day or who will threaten you with violence if you try to report to them that you've been raped.

4. "Even if there were" has a very different meaning to to "Even if there is".

Their point destroys itself if you give it any thought simply because the video basically said "Hey based on the above which we've concluded from questionable data on one other country, we can safely say guns are totally fine for a civilized society!" But that is of course forgetting the rest of the European Union who they already mentioned as being that much better than the UK.

You're either stupid or intentionally misunderstanding me, again. So allow me to kindly reiterate it for you:

Of course when you are dealing with something as subjective as violent crime rates; what constitutes a violent crime and the crime simply not being reported will play a heavy factor. Hence why you see here the UK showing data which to anyone who has been outside of their own country is clearly an anomaly (See: South Africa comparison.)

When it's something such as murder; what constitutes murder isn't really as subjective so reporting is pretty consistent. I wouldn't imagine that in the UK and US it is under reported which is why it's a valid comparison.

I never said the EU data was inherently incorrect because it's from the EU, only that it takes samples which weren't designed for international comparison of from many different countries all with a different idea on what it means, and all on different levels, methods and motivations for reporting the crime in the first place.

Even with underreporting aside, if they said "How many crimes occurred where criteria XYZ occurred" and were rather specific about it, you'd see a very different picture be painted.

I used the UN data for America because the EU doesn't get data for the US. Not because it was in any way more reliable.

I don't care about anything that Gary Kleck said. I won't dispute that America has #ed itself so royally it can't possibly solve its gun addiction and that removing them would only put them in the hands of criminals. I will only stand on the fact that the UK is not a violent place. It is not more violent than South Africa. It is not more violent than any US City. And that banning guns was the best step towards making a society I'd want my kids to grow up in our government has ever taken.
edit on 10-1-2013 by sajuek because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 02:53 AM
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I'm willing to bet, along the lines of what Ben Swann was saying, that if you compared the ratio of gun crimes committed to gun ownership per capita between different countries on this planet, the United States would come out looking like a nation of church going pacifists, compared to most other countries that have a lot of guns per capita.

I read somewhere that back in the 1800s there were only two cars in some state in the midwest and they got into a collision. By analogy, even if you had only two guns in the US, there is some chance that they would wind up in a shootout.

Even with thousands of gun crimes in the US every year, the ratio of gun crimes to guns out there is probably miniscule.
edit on 10-1-2013 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by sajuek

Originally posted by eLPresidente

Stuff.




I don't care about anything that Gary Kleck said. I won't dispute that America has #ed itself so royally it can't possibly solve its gun addiction and that removing them would only put them in the hands of criminals. I will only stand on the fact that the UK is not a violent place. It is not more violent than South Africa. It is not more violent than any US City. And that banning guns was the best step towards making a society I'd want my kids to grow up in our government has ever taken.
edit on 10-1-2013 by sajuek because: (no reason given)


I was going to respond to your points, even though they were horrible to begin with (remember you said you were going to "destroy the silly video"?). But that last paragraph was just complete bull.

You don't care what a criminologist has to say? Somebody that is an expert in this field. Somebody that USED to agree with you on gun control until he conducted studies and saw the facts? Right, you don't like the facts, you only care about the facts when they make your own nation look bad? and when they do make your country look bad you discredit them completely. Looking back at all of your postings, I'm actually not surprised you wouldn't care about the facts.

You clearly let emotion get in the way, enough to make you say something ridiculous like, "I will only stand on the fact that the UK is not a violent place. It is not more violent than any US City." Really? ANY U.S. CITY? wow... I see the EU factoid has clearly gone to your head. I'm not just saying it, you have proved it with your own words.

America has royally f'd itself by having a gun addiction? REALLY? Typical straw man. I never once personally attacked British culture in here but you felt you had to. Why? losing the argument?

CERTAIN Americans understand the second amendment. CERTAIN Americans know their history. CERTAIN Americans LIVE FREE or DIE.




BILL OF RIGHTS - AMENDMENT II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

edit on 10-1-2013 by eLPresidente because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 04:18 AM
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Originally posted by TheMindWar
At least someone has got it right. My mother in law has been burgled, my daughters boyfreind was mugged and we live in a villiage and and a small town.

Violent crime in the UK is out of control as a direct result of the nanny state trying to domesticate honest and decent people by making them unable to defend themselves.
Rubbish. There is hardly any violent crime around. I'm 44 years old, I've lived in 8 different UK cities and I've never once been the victim of, or witnessed a violent crime.






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