I can debunk "Infinity" in less than 8 minutes

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posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 02:11 PM
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I'm debunking you debunk of infinity.





posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by xxshadowfaxx
I didn't realize there was even a conspiracy surrounding infinity..... really? So what do we call things that appear endless? Oh and, whats the highest number we can count to?


Endless is not the same as infinite. Infinite extends in both directions. Endless only extends in one direction. Big difference between the two.


Count as high as you can..........Count in reverse from zero.......Is that not infinte??



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by Jeremiah65
Infinity is as another poster said, a mathematical conception or expression.

Think of it in practical...er...not so practical terms.

If you got into a space ship and headed for the edge of the universe, you would never get there...no matter how long you lived or how near the speed of light you could approach. So from within the boundaries of an expanding universe, it would appear to be endless...infinite. It is an expression and a concept so...no...you didn't debunk anything...

But you are allowed to think so if you need to...nothing you said or proposed changes my concept of what the term is used to describe.



Infinity IS just an expression, and that's the point. I made that fact extremely clear in the video script. The world is divided along many different lines (introverts - extroverts, progressives - conservatives, etc) and one of those dividing lines is believers in things that are infinite versus those people who don't believe that anything that actually exists is or can be infinite. Physicists generally populate the latter of the two groups related to belief in the infinite. To be honest, I actually had to do a lot of digging to determine if there were any professional people who actually do embrace the notion of a physical infinity, and it took some time to actually find them. That said, the percentage of lay people who simply accept that physical infinity exists is overwhelming. Maybe you'd be surprised, but then maybe you'd be surprised that such a large percentage of professional people realize that infinity isn't actual, and that it's just an expression (as you stated) that is used as a placeholder for an expanse or a size that can't be determined.

The problems we have today with people worshiping Jesus shaped scorch marks on a tortilla chip can be directly tired to the fact that impossible things - like physical infinity - are so widely and carelessly embraced by modern culture. It's gotten even worse since the professional hustlers have hijacked quantum physics (as a cultural meme) to lean all their boondoggles against when they've got them set out for sale. It's probably worse - as far as impossible thinking - than it was 50 years ago.

So, yeah, I see the effort to set the record straight as being worth pursuing. Especially if it pisses off the mystical - magical salesmen types.



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by Chrisfishenstein

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by xxshadowfaxx
I didn't realize there was even a conspiracy surrounding infinity..... really? So what do we call things that appear endless? Oh and, whats the highest number we can count to?


Endless is not the same as infinite. Infinite extends in both directions. Endless only extends in one direction. Big difference between the two.


Count as high as you can..........Count in reverse from zero.......Is that not infinte??


It's not physical reality. It's not real. You can invent any version of concept that you want, but that's just your imagination. What exists as real is immune to your interpretation of it. It simply is what it is, and it's not infinite. There's no such thing that actually exists beyond the blackboard where guys are playing with numbers.



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by mOjOm
I'm debunking you debunk of infinity.



If you mean that you've presented a video that doesn't actually exist, then okay.


I don't get it, but whatever.



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by Chrisfishenstein

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by xxshadowfaxx
I didn't realize there was even a conspiracy surrounding infinity..... really? So what do we call things that appear endless? Oh and, whats the highest number we can count to?


Endless is not the same as infinite. Infinite extends in both directions. Endless only extends in one direction. Big difference between the two.


Count as high as you can..........Count in reverse from zero.......Is that not infinte??


You would only ever reach a finite number. Humans do not live forever. Nothing is forever.

I enjoy the heated responses this topic is getting. Although I am unable to watch the video and offer a fair critique, I know that I share the same view as the OP.



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 02:42 PM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


Ok, so you're talking about "Physical Infinite". In that case I would also agree with you. Sorry, if that was stated within you video, I honestly only made it through about half way before I stopped watching it since I didn't see how or when it was going to get to the part about infinity. I'll try watching it again though.

Have you considered that the reason there cannot be a physical proof of infinity is simply because we are also confined within the finite limits and therefore so must all your measurements be as well. This of course would still have no effect upon the fact that within our finite reality there would still be no space for an infinite, but going beyond our physical limits of reality infinity might possible or even necessary. From our point of reference everything breaks down at the point where infinity enters the picture, but we still find it in our measurements of real physical things such as black holes. The problem is once it is found that concludes our ability to quantify it in some real way.



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 02:52 PM
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double post - sorry
edit on 12/13/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by BravoBull
reply to post by NorEaster
 

Are you talking about a mathematical concept of infinity? I think your intent was to "debunk" God, which is fine. You can say that God does not exist and you can say there is no evidence.


This is much more substantial than that.


I'm sure you're very proud of your idea and your rhyme, but it is very light on substance. What do you call pi or an any irrational number.


Those numbers start. Infinity doesn't start. It has no confines, no boundaries. It is beginningless and endless. But that's just some of what infinity is. Its also infinitely large and infinitely small. This equation 1-x-2 can exist on a blackboard and represent an "infinite" array for possible numbers, but in physical reality, the quantum unit eliminated that infinite number of possible things that x can represent. That's why quantum physics changed the entire world of science. It quantized reality, and that allowed physicists to get a firm handle on how reality can be leveraged on behalf of science and technology. There'd be no space program if infinity hadn't been debunked by quantum physics, and yet here we are in 2012, with most lay people completely unaware that this change in the perception of reality, and how it can be leveraged, is why technology is as advanced as it is.

Numbers are conceptual placeholders. They aren't physically real.


The problem with the God debunkers or the atheist debunkers is that it is predicated on the assumption that they have all the information to validate their positions, but what I've learned is that the more I know, the more I realize I don't know. It doesn't really matter one way or the other. It is the journey that matters and the journey is really what is in the now. Which I think you alluded to in your rhyme at the end of the video. It seems that you have some good ideas, or I should say that I think agree with some of your ideas, but your initial premise and the judgmental way you present it seems a little incongruous, but that is only MHO. Maybe I'm not understanding what your point is. If your point is that these concepts are just words to categorize, quantify and describe what the rational mind can't really comprehend, then I agree. But the mathematical concept of infinity is a different matter and you seem to blur the 2.


The mathematical concept of infinity has never been embraced as representative of actual material reality. That's never been true. It's the same with the bastardization that happened to Newton's 1st Law of Thermodynamics, and how the statement "energy cannot be created nor destroyed" has been translated into the claim that energy itself has the same infinite properties as the traditional God being is said to possess. And that claim is really easy to debunk.

Still, the folks who steer popular mythology have never been willing to let go of their power over the minds of the average person who is just trying to get through the next week without losing too much of what they've worked so hard to gather together. It's a;ways been those predators who've translated reality for the rest of the human herd, and this time, they've got hundreds of millions of people expecting a major cataclysm in 8 days' time. And after that date passes, they'll pop another something-or-other together to keep those people staring ahead and standing in line, just like before.

And the most powerful weapon they have is the myth that reality is literally unknowable for the unaided human mind. And that's just not true. If one realization can have the greatest impact on the lives of the greatest amount of people, it's the realization that life and reality is NOT unknowable, and that what's real is perceivable for any one of us by simply looking around and realizing that the mundane that sits right there in front of us is literally comprised of the fundamentals of true reality. That there isn't a hidden reality that only the initiated can reveal to us. That's just a boondoggle, and it's always been a boondoggle. Reality is easy to know, and that's because its basic structure is threaded throughout every bit of what exists and is commonly available at all times.

No formula on a blackboard is going to change that fact. Formulas are created by human minds. Human minds are the result of the basics of reality.
edit on 12/13/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by mOjOm
reply to post by NorEaster
 


Ok, so you're talking about "Physical Infinite". In that case I would also agree with you. Sorry, if that was stated within you video, I honestly only made it through about half way before I stopped watching it since I didn't see how or when it was going to get to the part about infinity. I'll try watching it again though.


It's kind of in 2 parts.


Have you considered that the reason there cannot be a physical proof of infinity is simply because we are also confined within the finite limits and therefore so must all your measurements be as well. This of course would still have no effect upon the fact that within our finite reality there would still be no space for an infinite, but going beyond our physical limits of reality infinity might possible or even necessary. From our point of reference everything breaks down at the point where infinity enters the picture, but we still find it in our measurements of real physical things such as black holes. The problem is once it is found that concludes our ability to quantify it in some real way.


There's a thing called relative context, and only "like" things can share relative context. In the most disparate examples of "like" things, only the fact that both things exist in a relative being state makes it so that they have any "in-kind" association whatsoever, but in the case of finite and infinite things, that alone would be more than could be shared by both to allow for any association or interaction whatsoever. There is no identity attribute that is more primordial that "being state", and this being the case, if something were to actually be infinite - in what that actual description would insist - then its being state would have to be considered "absolute" which is not compatible at all with anything that exists as "relative" in being state.

Keep in mind that since being state is the most primordial identity attribute that anything can have, the being state can't be altered. There's no means of accomplishing such a transition, and even if there was, the item in question would be completely and irrevocably stripped of all identity, which would render it existenceless, which is not something that can be survived by anything regardless of what it is. Once something ceases to exist, it ceases to exist forever. That might seem like a no-brainer, but most of this stuff is pretty simple wen you really examine it.

So an absolute (infinite) anything can never associate, interact, affect, or be affected by, a relative (finite) anything. This is extremely strict stuff, and only the human mind can even imagine such a being state contamination taking place. Reality isn't imaginative like that.



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 03:14 PM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


How do you explain fractals then?



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


Nothing personal, but human stupidity is and always will be infinite



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 03:22 PM
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Energy is not infinite, there by it can be created and destroyed.

The only true infinite is the absolute neutral state.



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


This thread is hogwash! HOGWASH I tell you! Just go to your closet, look under the couple of decades worth of shoes and old single socks, pull out that grey and black cube labled Nintendo Entertainment System, find your old copy of Contra, blow on it real good, probably blow on it again just for good measure, put it into the Nintendo Entertainment System, Press the power button, at the startup screen press: up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, start.......... BOOOM!! Your debunking of infinite has just been debunked!

MOTF!



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 


I havent watched this video yet..I certainly plan on it.. but what is the definition of infinity you debunk?

you realize reality exists exactly as it does..... and sometime ago man made a word called infinity to describe a concept roughly having to do with,,, large/increasing quantities of things and/or time?



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by spy66
Energy is not infinite, there by it can be created and destroyed.

The only true infinite is the absolute neutral state.


how can it be created and destroyed? what is it created out of? where does it go when it is destroyed?



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by NorEaster

There's a thing called relative context, and only "like" things can share relative context. In the most disparate examples of "like" things, only the fact that both things exist in a relative being state makes it so that they have any "in-kind" association whatsoever, but in the case of finite and infinite things, that alone would be more than could be shared by both to allow for any association or interaction whatsoever. There is no identity attribute that is more primordial that "being state", and this being the case, if something were to actually be infinite - in what that actual description would insist - then its being state would have to be considered "absolute" which is not compatible at all with anything that exists as "relative" in being state.

Keep in mind that since being state is the most primordial identity attribute that anything can have, the being state can't be altered. There's no means of accomplishing such a transition, and even if there was, the item in question would be completely and irrevocably stripped of all identity, which would render it existenceless, which is not something that can be survived by anything regardless of what it is. Once something ceases to exist, it ceases to exist forever. That might seem like a no-brainer, but most of this stuff is pretty simple wen you really examine it.

So an absolute (infinite) anything can never associate, interact, affect, or be affected by, a relative (finite) anything. This is extremely strict stuff, and only the human mind can even imagine such a being state contamination taking place. Reality isn't imaginative like that.


Not sure if I totally agree with what you're saying here, but then again I'm not sure I completely understand what it is you're saying either. So let's keep digging into this one.

It seems like using a contextual relationship between Finite and Infinite is impossible other than to say they are opposing concepts that must exist exclusively from one another so as to define each other. Their exclusivity would then satisfy your argument of their non-interaction with one another, however it would still require their Being to also be present only what defines "Being" would have to be discussed possibly. I'm not sure if you can say that anythings "Being" is quantifiable either as an absolute. Reality as we know it is in a state of Being yet that state is ever Changing so it's state of absoluteness is not the same from moment to moment.

On a side note, I don't think that this would effect most religious ideals anyway since most claim that their God of choice is also beyond our finite limitations. Therefore once again, as they would probably claim, it is only because our limited ability and our finite awareness that we are unable to comprehend what an Infinite Being would be. Christianity in fact claims both actually, in that their God is both Infinite and Finite even within it's own scripture by saying that God is both "Alpha and Omega" beginging and end (Finite) as well as Omi-everything (Infinite). Breaking through that kind of thinking once it is accepted as truth, is practically invincible to any kind of argument.



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by NorEaster

I'm sure you're very proud of your idea and your rhyme, but it is very light on substance. What do you call pi or an any irrational number.


Those numbers start. Infinity doesn't start.


I think that your error is twofold -- first, you seem to be confusing "eternal" (something without beginning or end) with "infinite" (something that is endless). "Infinity doesn't start" is an irrational statement, because "starting" and "ending" are not the same thing, as mathematical concepts.

Secondly, you seem to think that disproving the infinite nature of one thing ("smallness") disproves the infinite nature of another thing ("bigness") which is similarly an invalid conclusion.

The link that I posted, which you apparently didn't like the site of, is simply an explanation of a mathematical proof of infinity, by the man who invented set theory. I deduced from your video that you are not mathematically inclined, so I gave you the "easy version" -- if you don't like that site, simply google "Georg Cantor" + theorem and you'll find plenty of sources of information.

 

None of this, of course, has any bearing on God -- as a supernatural object, proofs or refutations of natural laws and characteristics brings no conclusion to the table about God. Science, intentionally, is only regarding the natural world -- it not only has nothing to say about the supernatural, by design, it cannot say anything about the supernatural.



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Sublimecraft
reply to post by NorEaster
 


Unfortunately, I am unable to watch videos for the next 4 or so days (satellite uplink atm) but am interested in what you have to say.

Could you explain your hypothesis or point me to a link where you may have already covered it?

Thanking you in advance........


It involves establishing what the quantum actually determines, and applying it to the concept of infinite extension - which projects in both directions to infinite contraction as well as infinite expansion.

The quantum proved that infinite contraction (smallness) does not exist in physical reality, and that literally eliminated a full 1/2 of the infinite gradient (from small to large) in all manners of how that can be applied.

I'm not familiar with that study or research? So I'm taking the lazy cliff note way, Did they prove that infinite smallness does not exist or did we reach the limitation of our knowledge and technology?

The only thing that I can think of being infinite is something. If not? How can something come out of nothing?

Note I'm agnostic , but if infinity is proven to not exist wouldn't it also be a point for the believers for the reason stated above? something came out of nothing?



posted on Dec, 13 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by nerbot
reply to post by NorEaster
 


How do you explain fractals then?


I don't have to. That's just a geometry that is used to determine the mathematical aspects of irregular shapes. It's not proof of physical infinity.





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