Outrage after popular students are found murdered in man's basement after 'they robbed his home on

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by EyesWideShut

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by EyesWideShut

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
Yes, i think they deserved to be killed.

. If I have you at gunpoint, I have control over the situation. I choose what happens.

No you don't have any control until you shoot. You have a false sense of security until you shoot and stop the person. Perhaps you don't mean to kill them but you have to shoot to stop them. There are many times people held others at gunpoint and the situation got out of control because the person with the gun messed up, or would not shoot and the trespasser got the upper hand.

edit on 27-11-2012 by JohnPhoenix because: sp

No, maybe YOU don't have control. I can assure you, having carried a department issued firearm that I have complete control of the situation. Shooting actually means you've lost control of the situation. People only have 2 ways of dealing with others, either by force or by reason. Your only options on the other end of the gun are comply, or get shot.

As long as they kept their hands where I told them and complied with my orders, I'd have no reason to shoot. If they didn't in all likelyhood it would result in Injuries incompatible with life.

I don't know why people are so quick to shoot someone, if it's avoidable...avoid it.

edit on 27-11-2012 by EyesWideShut because: (no reason given)

It always amazes me the extent at which the military will instill a false sense of security into their warm bodies to get them to follow orders.It's a necessary evil I suppose but even you big bad guy can lose control and a younger tougher thug can get the upper hand. your cockiness can be your undoing. Keep believing you have complete control without shooting and one day, you will learn the hard way. There is nothing to compel a person to listen to the barrel end of your gun. There are circumstances that can happen that you cannot control no mater how well prepared you think you are.. just ask the millions of dead US servicemen who thought as you do now and gave their life for that belief.

Way to jump to conclusions... how you compare fighting in a war with the scenario in the OP is beyond me. You're projecting and you should check youself because you're out of your lane right now. I'm not going to get into an internet pissing match with you, you have your beliefs and I have mine. We have very different skillsets that dictate how we'd each deal with the scenario, the differrence is I've held people at gunpoint before arresting them. My experience is real world 1st hand. Your opinion, while valid shows a lack of experience in this area. Being confident in your training and abilities has nothing to do with "cockiness".

Please don't confuse my hesitation to instantly shoot someone on sight before assesing the situation with my ability or willingness to do so. Personally, certain boxes have to be checked for me to squeeze the trigger, namely there must a "Percieved Threat". Simply because legally it's a good shoot, doesn't mean it's a morally good one.

Proximity, Ability , Intent & Opportunity are all things that I'd take into account before exercising deadly force. For me to shoot, I'd have to believe I was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. Two unarmed teenagers don't check enough of those boxes for me.

reply to post by MidnightTide


eh, they knew the consequences. This guy didn't know if they were sadistic torture, eat and molest type criminals or just some kids being idiots.

I don't know how you can shoot "too many" times. I would unload the clip and make sure they were dead if I was scared. He only did wrong in hiding the bodies. He probably saw they were teenagers or knew them from the neighborhood and freaked out. I don't blame him for the shooting, just for hiding their bodies.

Goes to show you, don't break into people's homes, or you will be killed. I think that makes sense, no? Yes, it does. We should be able to protect ourselves and our homes and feel safe in them. These kids wanted to violate that sense of security for fun, and so they are dead. Full circle if you ask me.

reply to post by MidnightTide


I don't believe in violence but where do we draw the line?? The thieves should not have been in someones home without permission - that is manners and the law. The homeowner had no right to take the lives of the intruders.

So where do we stand? This is a no win situation. I don't know the nuanced legislation but I do understand that Americans are permitted to have privately owned guns. I imagine this is to defend yourself.

I know that in America people still have their freedom to move around - although not via a persons home and particularly without permission - that is a crime.

What do you do? Call the Police and hope that the nearest car is not miles away or that there is a large emergency that involves a lot of Police on that shift. So - call the Police and wait and risk being assaulted as well as robbed. Take the intruders and the situation into your own hands???

I cannot imagine star pupils spending their out of school time engaged in criminal activity. The actions of the victim appear to be - I am at the end of my rope and have had enough - he pulls the trigger. His actions afterwards appear to be fear as he realised what he had done. He didn't plan to kill them - there was no planning to kill the victims - he reacted so I imagine he should be charged with manslaughter or a lesser charge. As for the criminals - two stupid and disrespectful and unguided young people got themselves shot for being where they should never have been.

No winners here only losers all round. Sad and a sad reflection of our unbalanced society and woefully inadequate protection systems (referring to the Police & Legislation.)

Much Peace ...to everyone involved in this article...

Originally posted by Amanda5
The homeowner had no right to take the lives of the intruders.

Unless they were a threat and that's what the trial will determine.

This happened in my home state, and there is more to it than you are hearing. This went way beyond home defense. He shot them then dragged them into his basement where he basically executed them. Then described in brutal detail to the cops how much they deserved it. Then, on top of that, the night he shot them he didn't call the cop, he waited till the next morning and asked his neighbor if he knew a good lawyer. These kids may have done something wrong, but they didn't deserve what happened to them. And for all you others out there who say, "Well that's what you get for breaking into someones house" do some research into the story first, K?

reply to post by gunshooter


I respect your response. I need to ask was there a history of the two young people with the homeowner. Don't infer that I think he did what was right. I am a former Police officer so I like to ask questions of both sides to see what brought the incident to a head.

Sometimes people do awful things - like shoot two young people in their basement but its not like they weren't pushed to it. Doesn't make it right but when a person is stressed and has been pushed already - everyone has their breaking point.

Do you know anything about the homeowner and what happened to make him have a brain snap???

Much Peace...

reply to post by yourmaker


I thought you could kill someone whom you did not invite if they broke into your home....This is not law in the US?

I have no permission suddenly to kill someone for violating my private property rights? Since when?

Security guards cannot shoot to kill if they see an intruder? I thought that someone breaking into your private property surrenders his rights to a degree by violating yours?

Threat or not, how can you tell? You just wake up in the middle of the night and have to sit down and have an interview with the intruder to assess his motives and intent?

reply to post by gunshooter


ah,

execution. That is a little different.

Still though, you know how to avoid finding out if your neighbor is the execution type? Don't break into his home....

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


The law can be complicated and it differs in each country as to exactly what charges can be preferred. I imagine he was threatened and until I know otherwise perhaps he had been pushed to breaking point.

It is a shame he didn't just lock them in the basement and call the Police. That would have been rational thinking but I doubt anyone thinks rationally when they find intruders in their home.

It makes sense that a person can defend themself in their own home - otherwise the criminals can do anything they want - anytime - anywhere.

Much Peace...

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by yourmaker

 

Threat or not, how can you tell? You just wake up in the middle of the night and have to sit down and have an interview with the intruder to assess his motives and intent?

edit on 27-11-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)

How do you tell? well your eyes for one should show you everything you need to see...I always wondered about those stories about people that shoot their own teenage kid by accident as he crawls in through the window after sneaking out. Your post now gives validity to those stories.

Have a light on your gun and positively identify your target. Is there a weapon? Where are his hands? Where is his buddy? That's how you tell if there's a threat...

the thing that grabs me is how they say he fired more shots than needed implying he took pleasure in the kill, well he probably did but it reminds me of many many cop murders ive seen were the cops 6+ in numbers empty full clips into 1 unarmed guy not willing to lie face down on the ground.

reply to post by mee30
hey fool, you don't shoot someone multiple times drag them down some stairs then put a barrel under their chin and blow the back of their head off. I consider myself a responsible gun owner, I have law enforcement experience, and military experience, I'm a real good shot, and have a great degree of control with my firearm under duress, plus it sounds like I also have something you don't have, and that would be common sense, so quit trying to act all internet commando saying "I would've done this" or "I would've done that" you, and a whole fist full of these ATS'ers are nothing but a bunch of savages, and that's it. God help this world we live in. And I'm an athiest. Jeeez.

reply to post by Amanda5
he was unstable from prior combat experience, and his house had been robbed in late October, but not by the same two kids.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

The kids really weren't neighbors, and the old guy really kept to himself

this is simple reality of life in the USA.

people buy guns so they can shoot pesky thieving kids dead if they tresspass on their property.

tall the he old guy has to say is 2 punk kids threatened to kill him so he can then make sure they didn't get the chance. simple.

this is how the US works.

this is why people buy guns.

its funny how people are a little upset because it was 'popular' students and not 2 homeless junkies. because 'popular students' are more important than homeless junkies.

americans make me laugh. the human race is an embarressment.

no such thing as forgiveness if your fine country. its kill or be killed.

reply to post by EyesWideShut

Exactly, its the differece between threat assessment, and being out of control. I couldn't agree more with your last two posts, stars for you sir.

reply to post by gunshooter


Thanks for the added information. Sounds as though he had been pushed to the edge and the two young people did not realise the gravity of what they were doing and to whom.

Again no winners here. The homeowner will most likely be charged with a manslaughter charge as he didn't have a plan to do what he did and I imagine his legal representation will present that in court. He is as much a victim as the young people. He will have to live the rest of his life with what he did as well as suffer the consequences of a trial.

I imagine that his armed service history will contain evidence of his mental state as well as the previous break in and what the outcome of that was and how it impacted on his mental health.

Why didn't the young people go and see a movie or visit friends or something else - anything else - were they that lost and unguided that breaking into a house was the only thing they could think of to amuse themselves?????

What an awful story and a tragic outcome even before a trial.

Much Peace...

reply to post by Amanda5

I'm sure things will be taken into account, but he didn't help his case any when he told the cops he used more shots than needed, and saying the girl was laying on the floor already hurting, and when he told the cops he used a good clean finishing shot. Makes him sound a little unstable to begin with

The incident happened in Little Falls MN, you can read the story @Duluth News Tribune.com

reply to post by MidnightTide


No sympathy. They comitted a crime.