Is the Christian Trinity a Conspiracy ?

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posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by GFB12
reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 

The doctrine appears in Genesis.It is in the Holy Bible.


Can you show us where it is?




posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Given the fact that the council of Nicaea is considered to be a conspiracy itself, and this is when this doctrine was starting to be established, it does make you wonder?
ATS voted it as 20th top conspiracy of all time, so ATS members know there is something to this.



The Trinity existed before Jesus in other non-jewish religions.
The religious triad, or trinity, was a prominent feature of worship in Babylon. One Babylonian triad was composed
of Sin (a moon-god), Shamash (a sun-god), and Ishtar (a goddess of fertility and war). In ancient Egypt, a god was often viewed as being married to a goddess who bore him a son, “forming a divine triad or trinity in which the father, moreover, was not always the chief, contenting himself on occasion with the role of prince consort, while the principal deity of the locality remained the goddess.” (New Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology)
One Egyptian triad consisted of the god Osiris, the goddess Isis, and their son Horus.
Christendom has its triad—the Trinity. Clerics say that the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit are one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4

Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one:

Since Jesus existed in heaven when this was printed, and the Jews were God's chosen people at that time and they only believed in one almighty God, it is something to ponder?

Was there a conspiracy to important that pagan doctrine of the Trinity from older religions that existed before, into Christianity ?
Because if there was, it certainly was a great success.
And if it was succefull, where does that leave a modern christians belief structure ?

Every Christian needs to ask themselves these questions ?
edit on 26-11-2012 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)


I did not read everything in this thread but I have to respond to the original post.

You are confusing some key things here.

God is ONE. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE. This is made clear of the Father and Son multiple times, and once verified in Scripture that the Holy Spirit is a part of the Holy Trinity. It is also verified in Sacred Tradition.

It is well known that demons and Satan copy God all the time. They even appear benevolent oftentimes (Angel of Light, they are fallen angels after all). We know that worshiping a false God is worshiping a demon. They know that God is a Holy Trinity - this is evidenced by the fact that they know who the Son of God is.

For them to create false religions with false Trinities is not far-fetched. They are actually a lot craftier than that when God allows.... We are exiled children who will be tested. Loyalty to Truth is very important. Remember, even though the Pharisee's and the Scribes were sometimes very wrong - they still had authority from God. Even when they were in opposition to God's plan for Salvation. We do not always know what we are doing is wrong, and sometimes people even do wrong on purpose, but God has always accounted for that in his plans for our Salvation.

There have been Catholic and Christian conspiracies, but this is NOT one of them. If you are looking for conspiracy you will not find it in the Scripture interpreted by the Church or Sacred Tradition.



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 11:02 PM
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Trinity ='s Mind/Body/Soul. Ours or if we see God, then God's. Simple.

God's would be a Light Body.
edit on 5-12-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2012 @ 12:07 AM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Murgatroid
 

You forgot one very important group who also have never believed in the Trinity and never will, Jews/Judaism.

Your comments cut both ways, as a double edged sword, those of us with a unitarian style belief of God, could rightly call trinity believers apostates. We never deny Christ's power or value to God, he is an immortal being with the second most power in the Universe he is also the oldest next to God, but he was created before time and matter existed, essentially before the physical universe even began, but he does have an age, where God doesn't.

You might be surprised at some the unitarians that have lived in more recent times for example

Five presidents of the United States were Unitarians: John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Millard Fillmore, Thomas Jefferson, and William Howard Taft.



Eleven Nobel prizes have been awarded to Unitarians: Robert Millikan and John Bardeen (twice) in Physics; Emily Green Balch, Albert Schweitzer, Linus Pauling, and Geoff Levermore for Peace; George Wald and David H. Hubel in Medicine; Linus Pauling in Chemistry, and Herbert A. Simon in Economics.


Also through the ages many intellectual people figured it out



Paul of Samosata, 269
Arius, 336 (the eponymous heresiarch of Arianism)
Constantius II, Byzantine Emperor, 361
Antipope Felix II, 365
Aëtius, 367
Ulfilas, Apostle to the Goths, 383
Priscillian, 385, considered first Christian to be executed for heresy
Ludwig Haetzer, 1529
Michael Servetus, 1553, burned at the stake in Geneva under John Calvin
Sebastian Castellio, 1563
Ferenc Dávid, 1579
Justus Velsius, c. 1581
Fausto Paolo Sozzini, 1604
John Biddle, 1662
John Milton (poet), c. 1674
Thomas Aikenhead, 1697, last person to be hanged for blasphemy in Britain
John Locke, 1704
Isaac Newton is generally thought not to have believed in Trinitarianism.
William Whiston, 1752, expelled from University of Cambridge in 1710 for Arianism
Jonathan Mayhew, 1766
Emanuel Swedenborg, 1772, eponymous founder of Swedenborgianism.
Benjamin Franklin, 1790,
Joseph Priestley, 1804
Thomas Paine, 1809
Mary Baker Eddy, 1821, founder of Christian Science
Thomas Jefferson, 1826,
James Madison, 1836,
William Ellery Channing, 1842
Robert Hibbert, 1849
John Thomas (Christadelphian), 1871
Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1882
Robert Roberts (Christadelphian), 1898
Benjamin Wilson, 1900
James Martineau, 1900
Félix Manalo, 1914
Charles Taze Russell, 1916, founder of the Bible Student movement and Jehovah's Witnesses
Eliseo Soriano, 1947
William Branham, 1965
Herbert W. Armstrong, 1986


Today nontrinitarians represent a small minority of professed Christians.


What is highlighted in yellow immediately makes me think of these scriptures
Matthew 7:13-20

13 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.
14 But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16 You will ]fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits


And fruits of the church sponsoring the trinity are ...




You just called the founder of Jehova's Witness's an intellectual who "figured it out" and then posted a picture of one world leader meeting with another world leader.

Do you believe that the Archangel Michael was Jesus? That would be the foundation of their beliefs. They put Jesus beneath God, and not a part of God, in their beliefs.

To insinuate that the Church was a part of the Nazi agenda will need more evidence than the evidence of a meeting. Priests pray for all sinners, so don't say it is because German priests prayed for Nazi soldiers. A priest will pray for a Satanists soul; it is in the nature of our Faith. We are all God's children, even Nazi's.

edit: that can't be the founder of JW's they were around long before that from my understanding they were founded in the dark ages. I also just realized you do conform to the belief that Jesus was not God.

There is Scriptural evidence that Jesus is God and also that the Holy Spirit is a part of the Trinity. I am sure you are aware of this scripture and interpret it a different way.

Now if you want to talk conspiracy, you must know that the JW's changed the scripture to suit their beliefs....
edit on 6-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2012 @ 05:33 AM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate

You are confusing some key things here.

God is ONE. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE. This is made clear of the Father and Son multiple times, and once verified in Scripture that the Holy Spirit is a part of the Holy Trinity. It is also verified in Sacred Tradition.


Trinitarians take their man made doctrine and twist and add to Scripture to fit it. Can you show us the doctrine of the trinity taught in Scripture without twisting or adding to Scripture?



posted on Dec, 6 2012 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NarrowGate

You are confusing some key things here.

God is ONE. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE. This is made clear of the Father and Son multiple times, and once verified in Scripture that the Holy Spirit is a part of the Holy Trinity. It is also verified in Sacred Tradition.


Trinitarians take their man made doctrine and twist and add to Scripture to fit it. Can you show us the doctrine of the trinity taught in Scripture without twisting or adding to Scripture?


Man-made? If I am not wrong... isn't almost all of the OT man-made and inspired by the Holy Spirit except a few select books? I admit I have never read it in it's entirety, so maybe I should do that. The Catholic Church places more value on the OT than any other denomination. Protestants oftentimes just leave it out. Catholics tell their children to read the OT first, NT second. Of course, not all kids (guilty) listen.

Yes I can. The actual Scripture that mentions it is brief, but if you look into the Sacred Tradition and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you will see the evidence and logic are not flawed in the slightest. What is flawed is H2. I have noticed what I call "H2 syndrome" popping up everywhere. The Bible is not the only Word of God you will find in the world.
To insinuate that the Church twists Scripture is a strange statement coming from a Jewish person.

Of course, I will have to use the NT which you do not adhere to anyways. I am not sure if most Jewish people use the same OT as Catholics, maybe you can clarify that for me. There is evidence of the Holy Spirit being an aspect of God in the OT from what I remember; at that point your lack of belief in the Son is what would separate you from those who believe in the Holy Trinity.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. - James 2:19

^^Context of that is based on faith without good works btw. Anyways, God is ONE is the point.


In the NT the only Scripture you will find that -directly- mentions it is - Matthew 28:19. If you bother looking into Sacred Tradition on your own without a bias, you will find a lot more evidence.

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

But I assume all protestants that do not acknowledge God's Trinity somehow manage to interpret that a different way. The Church's teaching is the only correct teaching on the Bible, please give the Catechism a chance before you decide otherwise. You will be surprised to find out how many misconceptions about what Catholics believe there are. Many Catholics these days are barely Catholic. They sometimes care more about the feeling than the Truth. The ones who remain loyal to the Pope are the ones to listen to. They can tell you what is really Catholic.
edit on 6-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: Accidentaly used a googled protestant translation that said "Holy Ghost"...how things change..



posted on Dec, 6 2012 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate

Of course, I will have to use the NT which you do not adhere to anyways.


I do read and follow the New Testament.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

at that point your lack of belief in the Son is what would separate you from those who believe in the Holy Trinity.


I believe the Son of God, God the Father manifest in flesh, known as Jesus Christ is the one and only Messieh of the Jews. He is not a second god/person.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

In the NT the only Scripture you will find that -directly- mentions it is - Matthew 28:19. If you bother looking into Sacred Tradition on your own without a bias, you will find a lot more evidence.

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit


Matthew 28:19 is a questionable verse. Even some trinitarians admit that. It is most likely that Jesus did not mention the words Father, Son, Holy Spirit, or even mention baptism at all in Matthew 28:19. Strong evidence of this is seen when the apostles baptized only in the name of Jesus Christ. Would they have disobeyed Jesus?

Even if He did, there is no mention of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being three gods/persons in Matthew 28:19 or any other verse.



posted on Dec, 6 2012 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Of course, I will have to use the NT which you do not adhere to anyways.


I do read and follow the New Testament.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

at that point your lack of belief in the Son is what would separate you from those who believe in the Holy Trinity.


I believe the Son of God, God the Father manifest in flesh, known as Jesus Christ is the one and only Messieh of the Jews. He is not a second god/person.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

In the NT the only Scripture you will find that -directly- mentions it is - Matthew 28:19. If you bother looking into Sacred Tradition on your own without a bias, you will find a lot more evidence.

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit


Matthew 28:19 is a questionable verse. Even some trinitarians admit that. It is most likely that Jesus did not mention the words Father, Son, Holy Spirit, or even mention baptism at all in Matthew 28:19. Strong evidence of this is seen when the apostles baptized only in the name of Jesus Christ. Would they have disobeyed Jesus?

Even if He did, there is no mention of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being three gods/persons in Matthew 28:19 or any other verse.


OK sorry I assumed from your name that you did not believe in our Lord the Messiah of the Jews. I would have assumed you would classify yourself Christian, but it is now obvious you are both Christian and Jewish. Words can be deceptive.

I must point out a couple of things here

1) You are correct: Jesus is not a second God. Jesus is the same Truth as the Father, and we Catholics do not believe different than that for if you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father. He is God's Word incarnate in the flesh. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One entity. When we say the three parts of the Holy Trinity it is not to imply they are separate persons, no indeed we too believe in only One God. We worship one God, who is indeed 3 aspects or "persons". They are distinguishable from one another - yet they are One God. Words can deceive... When describing something as complex as God, it becomes even more complex. We do not fully understand God.

2) Matthew 28:19 is not questionable. I do not know what "trinitarians", as you put it, you have been talking to, but the Word (interpreted by the Church) will never be considered "questionable" by any true Catholic.The reasons for this are numerous, I can not summarize it adequately for you. If I tell you just part of it, it will not suffice. Please take the time to read what Catholics believe before passing judgment, we do not believe in 3 gods. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a necessary read for anyone truly looking for a conspiracy. You have to know what you are actually working with, don't let someone else tell you what Catholics believe because we are constantly wrongly accused of things.

3) The Church, to my current understanding, recognizes people who are Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ as having had valid baptism. I am fairly certain they are and/or can be in full communion, but if you need I can look it up because maybe I am wrong. I personally would not settle for less than priests baptizing in the name the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit unless the Church said otherwise...
REGARDLESS, baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ is not disobeying that passage. If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father - and therefore the Holy Spirit as well. By that logic - if you have been baptized in the name of the Son, you have been baptized in the name of the Father and the Holy Spirit as well.

Things are very confusing without the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is available online just google it. It will aid anyone in their search for conspiracy in the Catholic Church. In fact, there is a major conspiracy going on in the Church in recent times (this conspiracy was revealed before it happened btw). It has nothing to do with this though. The Scripture and Sacred Tradition are True. If you are looking for conspiracy - look to the Cardinals and Bishops who would oppose those things. You will find results that are catastrophic to society, and in my personal opinion, a work of Satan. These things are still happening today.

Which Church do you think Jesus was referring to as the Church He would be with until the End? The one founded by St. Peter? Or is that, along with the Word of God interpreted by the Church, a conspiracy?

I am not trying to push my beliefs on you, or imply you actually have something against the Church. I am simply a fellow truth-seeker looking to help shed light. If you want to find conspiracy in the Church, you are looking in the wrong place.

Why is all of this on-topic though? As Catholics forget the Truth taught by the Church, society degrades.


EDIT: Don't bait anymore please. If you request a passage mentioning the Holy Trinity, then I will provide it. If you already know it exists, believe it is a fake passage, come out and say that before making me post it. You know it exists, so now provide *evidence* it is somehow a fraudulent entry.
edit on 6-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 6 2012 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate

We worship one God, who is indeed 3 aspects or "persons". They are distinguishable from one another - yet they are One God.


Seems strange that a doctrine that is so important to trinitarians is never taught by Jesus, the apostles, or any other Christian until around 200 AD.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Matthew 28:19 is not questionable.


Yes, it is.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

REGARDLESS, baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ is not disobeying that passage.


In the trinitarian view, it would be.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Things are very confusing without the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is available online just google it.


I can see that the trinity is not a Biblical doctrine by reading the Bible. I don't need another book for that.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Which Church do you think Jesus was referring to as the Church He would be with until the End?


The only Church with the apostles and prophets as it's foundation. Not the Catholic Church that began sometime later.



posted on Dec, 6 2012 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NarrowGate

We worship one God, who is indeed 3 aspects or "persons". They are distinguishable from one another - yet they are One God.


Seems strange that a doctrine that is so important to trinitarians is never taught by Jesus, the apostles, or any other Christian until around 200 AD.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Matthew 28:19 is not questionable.


Yes, it is.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

REGARDLESS, baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ is not disobeying that passage.


In the trinitarian view, it would be.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Things are very confusing without the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is available online just google it.


I can see that the trinity is not a Biblical doctrine by reading the Bible. I don't need another book for that.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Which Church do you think Jesus was referring to as the Church He would be with until the End?


The only Church with the apostles and prophets as it's foundation. Not the Catholic Church that began sometime later.



So am I speaking to a fundamentalist? Which Church can claim the apostles and prophets? The Carmelites are Catholic so.... Mt. Carmel ..... All evidence and also tradition (not Sacred Tradition, but Carmelite tradition) suggests the Carmelites are the descendants of Elijah. They did not just come out and say this btw, it took the Church hundreds of years to get it out of them. Furthermore, the Jew's beliefs are not "fundamentalist" beliefs the way you make it seem. They believe God exists outside of the Bible. Exactly what denomination do you believe is Christ's Church? I can't figure out if you are Jewish or fundamentalist protestant or what.... Your beliefs seem to be a mix...


You did take everything I said out of context but fine I will bear with it. I can see that you have become angry, you should clear your head and re-read the things I posted. Taking my words out of context intentionally is how I drew that conclusion by the way. I don't feel like re-posting the same information we just went over.

1) The apostles did teach it, and they learned it from Jesus - you just don't believe that. You also have no idea why and how Catholics know this, that is why I refer you to the Catechism. Before slandering the Church, you should know what it is the Church teaches and why. The Church is founded on apostolic succession starting with St. Peter.

2) Do you believe everyone should interpret the Bible for themselves? Consider reading the Catholic's interpretation. It is obvious you have not.

3) Is all of God's Word in the Bible? Everything Jesus did can not fit in the Bible, let alone everything God has done through history. That is just part of why we have Sacred Tradition. Much of the Word that is in the Bible was kept through Sacred Tradition (because they did not have books...) Do you think the Jews did not have Sacred Tradition? There have been Catholics who placed tradition above God's word, just like there have been Jews that have. But that is only specific interpretation of tradition, and also not sacred.

4) What is a trinitarian!? We believe in one God. not 3. If you would have bothered to read the Catechism instead of pretending to know and proceeding to slander - you would know that! Just read the chapter on the Holy Trinity you don't have to read the whole thing.

5) I just broke down the baptism thing. Where did my logic fail? If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father. If the Church does not agree, then I am wrong but you have not shown me a piece of information indicating the Church says that! It has to be from the Catechism or the Pope just because you find joe shmoe from podunk parish saying it does not mean the Church teaches it.


6) What is a "Biblical doctrine of the Bible"? Define that for me please. In depth.

7) Please don't let me look on here tomorrow and find out you just baited again. I don't feel like playing games. We are already engaged in the discussion there is no need to bait.

Tell me - why do you believe Catholics believe in 3 gods? Do you need proof we do not?





Mods if this is too far off topic let me know. I do think it greatly applies.



posted on Dec, 6 2012 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate

Furthermore, the Jew's beliefs are not "fundamentalist" beliefs the way you make it seem. They believe God exists outside of the Bible.


You may be incorrectly viewing antichrist Jews as real Jews.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Exactly what denomination do you believe is Christ's Church?


We are called the body of Christ, Believers, Christians, Jews... We don't have a denomination or organization.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

I can see that you have become angry, you should clear your head and re-read the things I posted.


No, I am not angry.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

1) The apostles did teach it, and they learned it from Jesus - you just don't believe that.


I don't believe it because it's not in Scripture.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

The Church is founded on apostolic succession starting with St. Peter.


The true Church has the 12 apostles and the prophets as it's foundation with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. Peter was one of those 12. No single person is the head of the Church.

Ephesians 2:20-22 (KJV)
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Is all of God's Word in the Bible? Everything Jesus did can not fit in the Bible, let alone everything God has done through history. That is just part of why we have Sacred Tradition.


The problem with your "sacred tradition" is it contradicts Scripture and adds doctrines not found in Scripture.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

What is a trinitarian!? We believe in one God. not 3. If you would have bothered to read the Catechism instead of pretending to know and proceeding to slander - you would know that! Just read the chapter on the Holy Trinity you don't have to read the whole thing.


Your 3 persons are really 3 gods.



posted on Dec, 6 2012 @ 11:55 PM
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reply to post by truejew
 


So you are a non-denominational fundamentalist.

I hope you find peace. At least you know our Saviors name. One thing fundamentalists never get wrong is the fact that faith in Christ coupled with good works and repentance is what saves along with baptism. Being reborn in water and spirit.

You did not respond in any significant way, so I will say no more to you than what you have right. Trying to point out the errors seems fruitless at this point. If you want to know what the Church founded by Christ (established in 33 A.D. by Christ through Peter) has to say about things, find out for yourself and read the Catechism. I guarantee you have many misconceptions, all non-Catholics do as even many of the Catholics do.

edit: Sacred Tradition never has nor will contradict scripture. Tradition can and probably will, but not Sacred Tradition. This is similar to an Athiest who says Scripture contradicts Scripture... No the Sacred Tradition is mostly Scriptural, but like has already been stated much of the Word of God found in Scripture would not be with us if not for Sacred Tradition.

Read the Catechism or don't pretend to know what it says. It is what we believe.
edit on 6-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)
edit on 7-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



I JUST REALIZED THIS! You are playing games. You claim to be a non-denominational fundamentalist who adheres to Scripture, yet you call even Scripture a conspiracy.

You have to see the errors. Re-read these posts please. I am probably done with this thread now... you play too much.
edit on 7-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:38 AM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by truejew
 


So you are a non-denominational fundamentalist.


I am a Jewish Christian. Standing upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

I hope you find peace.


I already have.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

At least you know our Saviors name.


More than trinitarians.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

You did not respond in any significant way, so I will say no more to you than what you have right.


You did not respond with Scripture.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

If you want to know what the Church founded by Christ (established in 33 A.D. by Christ through Peter) has to say about things, find out for yourself and read the Catechism. I guarantee you have many misconceptions, all non-Catholics do as even many of the Catholics do.


The true Church was most likely established in 29AD. Since the trinity was not mentioned until around 200AD, the Catholic Church would have been after 200AD.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Sacred Tradition never has nor will contradict scripture.


But it has. It says God is a holy trinity. Scripture says God is the Holy One.

Can you not see that your gate is wide?



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 01:06 AM
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great reading in this thread.
book marking to come back later
thanks



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 01:39 AM
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I did respond with Scripture you then told me oh well that specific Scripture is questionable.


Everyone reading listen! read over our conversation thoroughly. This is the danger of interpreting the bible yourself. You can not just pick and chose what to believe from Scripture and you can not interpret it for yourself.

Protestants, fundamentalists, non-denominational universal salvation---ists lol. All of them pick and chose the books they will believe from the Bible.

Then they accuse the Catholic Church of conspiring to hide the truth.

Please re read these posts. If you pay attention, "truejew" proves most of my points for me, and then proceeds to contradict his own words all the while using childish tricks.

Thank you "truejew" you have helped bring darkness to light.

BTW, the narrow path.... please tell me what that means in your interpretation. It wouldn't have anything to do with Christ and the fight against sin now would it?

No it must mean that whatever the biggest denomination is - they are always wrong. Go with the outsiders because they will be the ones to find eternal life.

THIS IS WHY WE DO NOT INTERPRET THE BIBLE FOR OURSELVES.

edit: btw I know truejew keeps making me say the same things twice without actually responding to what I say. Please be thorough when reading over the posts, you must bear with him it is worth your time.
edit on 7-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)


For clarity to those who don't feel like reading Catholics believe in ONE God.

There is one God, with 3 identifiable aspects that are distinguishable from one another. That would be - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all a part of one God. ONE.

I really hope people go back and read this....

edit on 7-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 05:31 AM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate

I did respond with Scripture you then told me oh well that specific Scripture is questionable.


It is questionable.

"The historical riddle is not solved by Matthew 28:19, since, according to a wide scholarly consensus, it is not an authentic saying of Jesus, not even an elaboration of a Jesus-saying on baptism" (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 1, 1992, page 585).

"It has been customary to trace the institution of the practice (of baptism) to the words of Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19. But the authenticity of this passage has been challenged on historical as well as on textual grounds. It must be acknowledged that the formula of the threefold name, which is here enjoined, does not appear to have been employed by the primitive Church, which, so far as our information goes, baptized 'in' or 'into the name of Jesus' (or 'Jesus Christ' or Lord Jesus': Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5, 1 Cor. 1:13, 15) (The Dictionary of the Bible, 1947, page 83).

I even pointed out the fact that if it was't questionable, Matthew 28:19 still does not say "God is three gods/persons".


Originally posted by NarrowGate

This is the danger of interpreting the bible yourself. You can not just pick and chose what to believe from Scripture and you can not interpret it for yourself.


Why does it take a man with a funny hat, who is a human just as you and I, to tell you what Scripture says?


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Protestants, fundamentalists, non-denominational universal salvation---ists lol. All of them pick and chose the books they will believe from the Bible.


Maybe they do, but I'm not one of those.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Then they accuse the Catholic Church of conspiring to hide the truth.


They do and you will believe whatever they tell you.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

If you pay attention, "truejew" proves most of my points for me, and then proceeds to contradict his own words all the while using childish tricks.


I do not.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

For clarity to those who don't feel like reading Catholics believe in ONE God.

There is one God, with 3 identifiable aspects that are distinguishable from one another. That would be - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all a part of one God. ONE.


I could say that I believe there is just one car in my driveway, but it would not change the fact that there are really three cars. When you have a god praying to another god, there is more than one god.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 07:24 AM
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Is the Christian Trinity a Conspiracy?

No conspiracy there!
Interpretation of the BIBLE is sacred and each of us cannot give our own interpretation of it....that is how many various interpretations of the Bible happened and the many sects of Christianity formed!
The Apostle S Peter insists: "No prophesy of the Scripture is of private interpretation" (2 Pet 1:29).


Gospel of St. John, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one,
I suppose that even the world could not contain the books that should be written" John 21:20

Sacred Tradition.....Apostle Philip met one of Queen Candace's eunuchs on the road .....and saw the book of the Prophet Isaiah in his hands,
asked the eunuch, do you Understand what you are reading?
He replied,
How can I except some man should guide me? Acts 8:30-31

Church just means 'people'...we dont have a church if there are no people!

"the Word(LOGOS) became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14)...the WORD(LOGOS) is the exact WORD that was and is in the Old Testament!

When St. Philip asks Jesus, "'Lord, show us the Father,' He answered him: 'Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip?
Jesus answered ....''He who has seen Me has seen the Father'" (John 14:8-9).




From the Father the Son is begotten before all ages and all time (Psalm 2:7; II Corinthians 11:31).
It is from the Father that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds (John 15:26).
God the Father created all things through the Son, in the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1 and 2; John 1:3; Job 33:4),
and we are called to worship Him (John 4:23).
The Father loves us and sent His Son to give us everlasting life (John 3:16).


The Scriptures ....... "Every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God" (I John 4:3)

The Son of God assumed our humanity(Word became Flesh), and being without sin "He condemned sin in the flesh" (Romans 8:3).
Condemned SIN in the Flesh(destroyed the curse on humanity)


On Baptism..
Jesus words, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
From its beginning.....
The new birth occurs in baptism ......we die with Christ\
we are also buried with Christ...
we are raised with Him in the resurrection, being joined into union with Him in His glorified humanity Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3-4...
"God...was revealed in the flesh" I Timothy 3:16
From the Father the Son is begotten before all ages and all time .......Psalm 2:7; II Corinthians 11:31
It is from the Father that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds .....John 15:26
God the Father created all things through the Son, in the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1 and 2; John 1:3; Job 33:4),
and we are called to worship Him John 4:23........ The Father loves us and sent His Son to give us everlasting life John 3:16

ICXC NIKA



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by helen6700

Interpretation of the BIBLE is sacred and each of us cannot give our own interpretation of it....


The Catholic Church has a pope giving his own interpretation of Scripture. The true Church has the 12 apostles and prophets. Do you want a private interpretation or the interpretation of many led by the Holy Spirit?

The rest of your post is just Bible quotes that have nothing to do with the topic of the trinity.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 10:18 AM
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reply to post by truejew
 


It has become apparent that you do not care about facts or what the Church's position is. You also refuse to use logic I do not know what is causing this. Malicious intent maybe?

Furthermore, you pick and chose what you will believe from the Bible.

I provided Scripture that mentions the Holy Trinity and you say "that scripture is questionable" because you just want the Holy Trinity to be fraudulent but it is not and you are blaspheming. I do not know how accountable for this you are because you do not know what you are doing. Fundamentalists do not deny the Trinity, and you are indeed a fundamentalist. That is why you think Scripture is the only place God resides.

If it wasn't for the Catholic Church you wouldn't even have Scripture (quite literally) stop kidding yourself and do some research. You keep claiming prophets but I am certain you are not from Mt. Carmel, because over there they are Catholic.

You claim apostles and prophets just because you are a non-denominational Jewish Christian. A fundamentalist who decides which scripture suits his cause. I could find quotes from the internet that Jewish Christians are devil worshipers but why would I bother? It is just as false as what you have posted.


Everyone please go back and read thoroughly. Very entertaining and an excellent display of what not to do.

edit: btw his passages very much have to do with the Trinity, you just don't want to see it.
edit on 7-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)


Also the Pope is not single handedly interpreting Scripture by the second for all Catholics. We have had that figured out for many many many centuries....
edit on 7-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by truejew
 


It has become apparent that you do not care about facts or what the Church's position is. You also refuse to use logic I do not know what is causing this. Malicious intent maybe?


When one controlled by false teachers sees that they cannot defend their false doctrine, they often try to attack the character of the one teaching truth. I have no malicious intent.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Furthermore, you pick and chose what you will believe from the Bible.


I do not.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

I provided Scripture that mentions the Holy Trinity and you say "that scripture is questionable" because you just want the Holy Trinity to be fraudulent but it is not and you are blaspheming.


Matthew 28:19 is questionable. I provided quotes and have shown by Scripture that the apostles did not use a trinitarian baptism. I have also pointed out that even if Matthew 28:19 was not questionable, it still does not say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three gods/persons. Here are more quotes for you. The first even being a catholic source.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:
"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."

The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, 275:
"It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition."


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Fundamentalists do not deny the Trinity, and you are indeed a fundamentalist.


Catholics love their contradictions.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

If it wasn't for the Catholic Church you wouldn't even have Scripture (quite literally) stop kidding yourself and do some research.


God can use a donkey, can't He?


Originally posted by NarrowGate

You keep claiming prophets but I am certain you are not from Mt. Carmel, because over there they are Catholic.


It does not matter where a prophet is from.


Originally posted by NarrowGate

Everyone please go back and read thoroughly. Very entertaining and an excellent display of what not to do.


Do not follow WideGate's path.





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