The beezzer Principle/Party

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by beezzer

 

I like this idea beezzer. The best course of action would be to set a solid foundation of self-sufficient citizens, so that a 'trickle-up' effect takes place. If this happens, the government would be forced to bend to the will of the citizens; the government would then have to rely and depend on its people, rather than the other way around.

Seems logical.

Well put! Thank you for being more succinct than I.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by beezzer

 

OK Beez... Tell me how to fix this one. FTR it is 100% true.

An acquaintance of mine, Celeste, has MS and reached the point about 4 months ago where she had to be put into hospice because she can no longer control her body. The only family she has is a 71 year old mother who is on a fixed income and lives hand to mouth. Celeste worked as a "greeter" at a local electronics store until about a year ago... until they finally fired her because her tics reached a point where they were disturbing the customers.

Social Security took nearly 5 years to approve her for benefits and for Medicaid ( Georgia will NOT provide Medicaid for anyone disabled - even though it's in violation of Federal law for them not to. The state has been fined several times for this, but is a "Tea Party" state and refuses to comply. They insist the Federal government pay it. ). The fact that Celeste was willing to try and work as much as possible, even while sick has bit her in the proverbial butt because Social Security now says "Well... you worked. So you must be capable of doing something." and has only currently approved her for a small SSI benefit and not SSD.

Celeste cannot, at this point, walk, bathe herself, feed herself, or dress herself. She has to wear diapers. She is fifty years old.

Despite what the conservative spin would have folks believe - Celeste, even in her drastically ill state is not "milking" the system. The hospice she lives at currently has taken her in - but is billing her substantially more than her SSI benefits cover - even with the Medicaid. They are deferring payment currently with the intent of suing her mother - the geriatric woman with the fixed income.

If our so called "welfare state" is providing such minimal help - and no charities have done a single thing to alleviate the burden...

What will become of Celeste in a world where nobody is compelled to help at all?

~Heff

edit on 11/10/12 by Hefficide because: clarity

Do you remember that bus monitor that was bullied by the kids she was riding with? It went viral and people all over the country sent her money. I forget how much she got but it was a staggering amount. She was able to retire, if I remember correctly.

Maybe you could get a few friends together and talk about her situation on YouTube. I'm not sure how you can make it a subtle case but if you did it correctly there are a ton of giving people out there that would love to help her, I'm sure.

Just a thought...(I am sorry about your friend)

reply to post by Hefficide


Star for you Heff.

Very Sad story, but also a very common one, I'm afraid.

I think first, mindsets need to change. The "me me me" attitude, that is a consistent in this World we live in, has to change. I don't think ANYTHING can, or will change, without humanity evolving into something better. Something wonderful. How many people nowadays think that dropping a few coins, in a Salvation Army box, is making a difference? Not that it isn't, but wouldn't it be nice if EVERYONE that does, actually took a family in, come Christmas time, and did something nice for a family that way?
Extra room in the house, why not give someone who is destitute, and really needs a break in life, that room? I have three children, and I am a single father. I get no help,or aid from the Government. My Ex's don't pay child support. I find the time to give Children the chance to have a father figure, a friend when they need one, with Big Brothers Big Sisters. I wish I could do even more. They can call me anytime, day or night if they need to talk. I think we need more of this. I also think we need to start with the youth. We need more positive. Not Negative.

reply to post by beezzer


I love the nobility of 1) realizing that people really do work hard and still need help if they are going to get anything more than what they currently have, which may be subsidized by the government and, 2) that, to quote someone not very popular on these threads, we need to create "ladders of opportunity," and 3) that We the People can have a role in doing this, rather than waiting for the Federal and State governments to do this.

I particularly like this idea because there are people who simply cannot work, who are so disabled or medically incapacitated that they are completely unable to help themselves. We have a growing population of these individuals (and I won't start ranting about why I think this is so) and imo they are the ones who most need the social safety net. There would be no lack-of-funding issues for these folks if we could get more people out of poverty.

I don't know how many people here have had occasion to look into the gaping void that is Medicaid. While it provides absolutely necessary and 100% needed services to those who are very disabled, the other population it serves is the very poor. It provides necessary, life-saving services to them too, but they might be able to work for themselves if there was a way out of the Medicaid trap. The latter category, the very poor, is the one I want to address.

The problem goes like this: 1) you find yourself facing a financial disaster, say from a major uninsured chronic health problem so, 2) to save your life, or the life of a loved one, you take the plunge into Medicaid - you give up your home, all your assets including your car, and you stop working the job that wouldn't pay for either your insurance or enough for you to purchase it on your own. 3) you are completely stuck.

IF you want to get out of poverty, but you have a medical condition that needs care in your family, there was no where to go - you couldn't do it. That is why my family clung by our nails to the edge of that abyss, and I'm very grateful we could.

Something else not very popular on these boards is actually a new ladder out of the Medicaid poverty trap, at least for those who are there for medical reasons. It is one of the genius aspects that people completely overlook - and I know a lot of folks won't like hearing it. Obamacare. Yep. (cringing from the wrath of fellow ATSers). It is the first way to get out of the Medicaid trap that I have ever seen.

Now, you can 1) not be denied insurance so you don't have to stay on Medicaid to get help, 2) you can go back to work and start digging out of poverty because your health insurance will start off being subsidized until you make enough money to pay for it yourself.

I've looked into the abyss. Now for the first time, people are being thrown a rope that isn't designed to hang themselves by, but can actually help them pull themselves out. Now, the people wanting out of poverty who are not there because of a medical problem - I'm not sure what the final solution is to that - but I think you are moving in a very good direction. The Obamacare solution is somewhat narrow in that the individual on Medicaid has to be capable of working, but it is perfect for parents of a medically fragile child, or for someone who can return to work after successful treatment. (edit to add that last statement...)

One more thing. We need a livable minimum wage, imo. I know that isn't very popular either. Perhaps there could be a tax incentive for people who offer their employees a livable wage? In other words, it could balance out the extra Social Security and Medicaid employer-taxes through incentives, thus making it no harder to give people a livable wage, vs. a minimum wage?? If we do that, then people wanting to transition from poverty will have more motivation and an actual way out that keeps food on the table.

The thing is, beezer my friend, I'm not in any way adverse to "bootstrap pulling," hard work, self-reliance or personal responsibility for those who are capable of it.

I really like your ideas for how to help people with other kinds of issues get out of their situation - there needs to be WAY more of this kind of thinking and WAY less blaming, shaming and "Other-izing." (I think I just coined a term!)

peace,
AB

I'm not a principal, not even a teacher. Can I still come to the party. I'll bring a bottle of Seagram and some rabbit stew.

Your idea is good Beezzer but there is one problem. As soon as the big wheels in the government get ahold of it they will screw it up royally. They will all add to it and make it expensive and complicated. It will become a nightmare. I don't know why people do that, they take something that works fine and have to add something personal to it before they will let it off of their desk. This happens a lot in Bureaucracy, it messes every good idea up and the creator of the idea gets disgraced. I have seen a lot of simple ideas turn into nightmares by government agencies over the years.

Originally posted by rickymouse
Your idea is good Beezzer but there is one problem. As soon as the big wheels in the government get ahold of it they will screw it up royally. They will all add to it and make it expensive and complicated. It will become a nightmare. I don't know why people do that, they take something that works fine and have to add something personal to it before they will let it off of their desk. This happens a lot in Bureaucracy, it messes every good idea up and the creator of the idea gets disgraced. I have seen a lot of simple ideas turn into nightmares by government agencies over the years.

That's why we don't involve the government. We don't do anything illegal. We just help.



If it gets the people off the government teat, if it frees them from government mandated slavery, then all the better.

While there is greed there will be pain.

Until no person is sleeping on the street, there is greed.

Once that is fixed there is a chance.

Until that is fixed it is an illusion and people will continue to live in denial.

reply to post by beezzer


But we still need businesses to get on board, to offer internships and apprenticeships and I still think it'll take some intervention from the government to bring businesses on board for that.
anyway Happy Birthday to your son, my daughter's is the 14th of this month lol.

reply to post by ldyserenity


I agree. I trained quite a few people how to do things in my life. I couldn't afford to pay big wages because it takes time to train these workers. When they got trained and got a good reference, they went on to other jobs. I feel good that I taught these people how to work. I see my old workers building their own garages and doing their own remodeling on their homes, they ask me to come look at their projects and give input occasionally. Even though I cannot do the work anymore, I can advise others and tell them how to do things.

Hey beezer - a non-profit organization might provide a solid legal structure for this - it could be a "Craig's List" of networking combined with fundraising and local, practical assistance. Hm. I will say that "the government" really does make attempts to do exactly what you are suggesting in regards to education and job training, financial advice, etc. United Way may already have some of these kinds of programs around, too, in certain localities. It may be a matter of helping to connect the dots with what is already available, and filling in the gaps of what is not, combined with accountability and motivation to succeed. There is, I'm sure, a lot of data on what is successful and what is not, complements of "the government" and its attempts to do this.

I will say, the "government is the problem" isn't, imo, the only reality. What I like, and what I think many people on both sides of the isle would applaud, is taking up the ball and running with it on behalf of our fellow Americans to help get them off of government-funded lives. If you want this to be really broad-based, it would be good to open the philosophical tent a bit to include less "government is bad," and more "Success for All."

The intention of many government programs is to help, not to hurt. And intention matters, in this case, which is the impetus to help. It may not get it right due to being so big, or wrongly-unfunded (i.e. Heff's story - an all too common tragedy), etc. The point is, there are many people of many "ilks" who want to see their fellow-humans, fellow-Americans, the children especially, move out of poverty and into independent, successful lives. In fact, every "liberal" I know is extremely compassionate and holds the desire to help others, to serve a higher good, as an essential part of who they are in the world. And to see people who really, desperately need help, who cannot help themselves, taken care of by a society who holds this as a core value. The question is, how will this be accomplished - we have relegated this to our government imo because the problems were universal and vast during the Great Depression - it took massive assistance to pull out of that, sort of like a FEMA rescue effort for the victims of an economic tsunami.

I don't think anyone would complain if government programs shrank from the outside in because people didn't need the services anymore!

peace,
AB

I wonder if corporate ATS could contribute with financial aid or free advertising thru their vast www. network.

great idea idyserenity!!!!!!!!!!

But we still need businesses to get on board, to offer internships and apprenticeships and I still think it'll take some intervention from the government to bring businesses on board for that.

I just floated the idea out on FB and twitter. Social media is a player in todays culture. Perhaps contact indygogo or Kickstarter.

Now that corporations are "people" maybe they could contribute to those of us people made of flesh and blood.

Companies pay consultants big bucks to design a positive "brand".... This could be a way to do it for nothing except for the contribution.

My company would be honored to kick in something. Who do I make the check out to?

reply to post by ldyserenity


Oh my God this will kill it. I just remembered Glenn Beck was pushing for business's to offer internships and apprenticeships. He pointed out he did it on his own show. Eeeks! Whatever we do we must never agree with Glen Beck! You will be kicked off this site!

I just want my money back.

I have been paying the USA for 25+ years,and I want a refund.
I am a dissatisfied customer and think that I could do better things with it.

Thanks to everyone that has replied.

But I don't think we need an LLC, a non-profit. We could each be our own United Way, our own corporation. All it takes is a little time.

Has anyone ever posed the question to those that depend on government aid?

What can I do to help you get off it.
Do you want to get off it.
What do you need to get off it.

Well first off lets define what government mandated "help" is:

Steal from the greedy, and give to the needy compound that asinine ideology to where more people are taking out of a system than putting in to it.

Then let's define just exactly what those programs are:

Robbing Peter to pay Paul to pay for a person's existence that does nothing but line corporate pockets, and guess wbat people?

SS,Medicare,Medicaid,welfare,free education,free phones,free internet, free everything makes those corporations all the richer.

Those people supposedly "being helped" are they getting richer from all that?

Hell no they aren't, and the op once upon a time asked a simple question that the people in power can not answer:

How does taking property(money) from person A, and give to person B create wealth,prosperity,grow the economy. and give a person a future to where they will ever be able to support themselves, and return that "help" to someone else?

That is the thing It doesn't it never has, and it never will .

People run around and cry about the disparity of 1% and the 99% since 1935, and the trillions taken

After decades why are people worse off now than ever?

Because it is a failed ideology that is why.

I agree with sticking to principles. and action needs to be taken, but not at the behest of Government or anyone else that power soley resides in the place it always has.

Within the individual in case people forgotten E. Pluriibus Unum out of many come one:

Many people acting as individuals who Work and take care of themselves that create prosperity for themselves which in turns creates prosperity from the many who turn in to one.

One country who return back to society than only take from it.

reply to post by beezzer


I'll vote for the Beezer party. Now we just need 5% to do the same, and we can have matching funds and a real chance to end the two party monopoly of power that has destroyed our nation.

Also Beezer we need the tools we have to fight extreme poverty, else we will see shanty towns-slums like you see in Africa. We have millions who will never do anything to better themselves and if we dont keep em out of the dirt we are all dirtied!

We are the richest nation on the planet and if we elect systems that guarantee a high standard of living or that guarantee our less fortunate are cared for. Its 100% all American and the best our Democracy has to offer. Stop waging wars and spending untold trillions on military! Stop dropping bombs and feed the hungry. In this land of plenty there is no reason why any need to live in the dirt Beezzer!

You want to restore American industry? Implement quality standards, require that all products come with a mandatory 1-2 year warranty. That cheap Chinese crap will not be able to compete and the loss Walmart etc all encounters will see American quality put the cheap imports where they belong. In th trash!

We have legislation in place for good reason Beezzer. Give the wrong men the reins and you will very quickly find yourself in the spot we are in now. A level playing field and an end to unfair monopolist systems should be our goal! The restoration of America should start with the restoration of the Mom and Pop dream (The real American Dream that built this nation.).

P.S. When are you trying on that avatar?

Since this idea seems to focus on single mothers, wouldn't it be better to eliminate single mothers the best we can? By teaching children the importance and value of the family unit early in life we could greatly diminish the number of single mothers altogether. It wouldn't be such a huge problem and we wouldn't need to spend so much money on government assistance. The problem in our society is a lack of basic family values.

The solution is simple. Lead by example. For men, if you help a woman create a baby stand by her. Work for a living and talk to her about what's best for the family. Basically just be a man. For women. if you become pregnant by a man, give him a reason to stay. Respect him, appreciate him, and be a good mother to that child. Don't expect to be Cinderella and live happily ever after. That's not reality. Being together through thick and thin and raising decent kids is the best anyone can aim for.

All we can do is teach our children. We live in a world where divorce has become a trend. It's no surprise that we face these issues.

reply to post by beezzer

Yes. A friend and neighbor of mine before he had his head blown off by a Chicago cop for missing a garbage can with his candy wrapper. I was young then but was looking for a way out for him.

Tyrone said that the most important thing he had to do was to physically get away from the people around him. He had to live somewhere else. Constantly being told you can not succeed, that you are no better then anyone else so shut up and do what we do, seeing the only ones doing better were pimps and drug dealers saps you of ambition. You also can get physically beaten for being uppity and trying to better yourself. His statement to me was that was what he was going to become because in the neighborhood we were living that was all there was. Me living there was an anomaly so he had come to me for help. I was to slow but to be honest I did not really push myself to help him at that time. Young and stupid.

Originally posted by Quadrivium

Do You not understand that if we follow on the same course with the social programs we are headed for the same outcome you posted?
Were these programs needed in during the depression? CERTAINLY!
The problem was that they were never scaled back was the need lessened.
Now look where we are. Social Programs are going to have to be changed, that is just a reality that many can not accept.
We can not afford them.

It seems the Government helped quite a few.

The State of Homelessness in America 2012 examines homelessness between 2009 and 2011, a period of economic downturn in the nation. The report shows that despite the bad economy, homelessness decreased by 1 percent during this period. The decrease was likely due to a significant investment of federal resources to prevent homelessness and quickly re-house people who did become homeless.

The State of Homelessness in America 2012

How many did Fortune 500 companies or The Heritage Foundation put a roof over?

“Government of the people, by the people, for the people” President Lincoln

The programs were not scaled back because "We the People" still need them.

"We the People" need them more today because the the same ones whom you expect to help caused the financial collapse in the first place.

Once "We the People" have rebuilt the country and made shore no citizen goes hungry and has a roof over their head, then, and only then, can "We the people" hope to cut back substantially on welfare.