Dr. J. Allen Hynek, Rosicrucianism, and UFOs

reply to post by The GUT


Very very intreesting thread.

Put a new light on UFOs/Alien Phenomenon. S&F, GUT

And, of course, they are also spiritual entities.

Very interesting and informative post. I too have learned from this post about things I formerly had no knowledge of. Thank you for your obvious time spent in preparing. S & F for you.

Originally posted by valleyproductions
The Truth About UFOs

www.youtube.com...

Watched the video and do not agree. But first, was the host stoned when taping the voice over?

The reason that I do not think these are demons is because they have a physical form. Witnesses from the Roswell incident, and thousand of other sightings and close encounters, have proven to me that they entities have a physical form.

I think it is more likely that what you call demons are mistaken malevolent aliens.

Originally posted by valleyproductions
The Truth About UFOs

www.youtube.com...

This post/video does not belong in this thread. In all honesty, I'm really tired of having Christianity shoved down my throat every time I stray outside of the box.

As for the rest of the thread, very interesting material. This is a side of Hynek I never knew about and I grew up in the 60's.

My parents saw him speak on UFO's at the local university in the 70's. I recently asked my mother about it. She said he was no disinfo agent. He was well-spoken and knowledgeable and very believable and sincere.

Originally posted by Arken
reply to post by The GUT

 

Very very intreesting thread.

Put a new light on UFOs/Alien Phenomenon. S&F, GUT

And, of course, they are also spiritual entities.

Thanks for stopping in and commenting, Arken.

As if UFOs weren't strange enough, I do find it fascinating that the deeper one goes, the weirder it gets. Hynek & Vallee had some interesting excursions together and met with some interesting folk along the way.

There are some other intriguing quotes from Forbidden Science II that I'll try and find to share here.

This thread really brings back memories.

Twenty five years ago it was a Rosicrucian book that awakened me from from main-steam Christian beliefs.

It revealed things that before where beyond anything my limited mind could think or comprehend. I walked away dumbfounded, but never the same.

I don't know now what the book was, or how I came upon it, or how I had the courage to read it...from a fundamentalist Christian paradigm. But I did, and I am forever thankful..

It was the important little chip that broke through the egg.

Love it when I read threads like these that kinda tie into other intrests I have like the JFK assination or 9/11. Awesome thread OP

www.abovetopsecret.com...

^ Thats the most recent thread that comes to mind.

Everything seems to lead back to these Esoteric beliefs and people.. .

reply to post by The GUT


Hi T.G another interesting thread mate , I must admit I've never heard of Rosicruscianism before so it goes to show these threads can be educational ... thanks for that

It would seem to make some sense of some of the statements made by Hynek and Vallee though I'm not convinced they thought they were actually Demons as in the Biblical sense ... but I guess you would expect that

I came across this video from 1986 with Vallee discussing his beliefs on UFOs .

reply to post by The GUT

Dorothy was filming a bright light in the sky when it suddenly vanished in a dazzling burst. The developed film showed this apparent "landscape" with lights in the background. Dr. J. Allen Hynek suggested that it might be a glimpse of the object's home world as it passed through a "window" or portal in time and space. pg. 46

I added a pic to my media with my theory that is similar to this.

Sorry I don't know how to pic the pic smaller and the art work is bad. also I named the planet of the ufo planet X because it was the first name i thought of, its doesn't mean nibru.

And I first posted the pic in this thread. ATS crete UFO.



Btw, the 2 ufo'S I saw in the same night looked like orange balls of light. but strange light that didn't act the same way as normal light. its hard to explain what i mean by that.

Great thread. S+F

Originally posted by gortex
It would seem to make some sense of some of the statements made by Hynek and Vallee though I'm not convinced they thought they were actually Demons as in the Biblical sense ... but I guess you would expect that

No, Gortex, you're right. Neither Hynek or Vallee thought the enigma had "demons" at it's source per se. They do (did), however, suspect that the angels, demons, fairies, gnomes, djinn, etc. that have been reported throughout recorded history and "aliens" stem from the same phenomenon. Further, that the phenomenon--while physically "real"--may or may not stem from our own socio-subconscious. Vallee more so than Hynek---at least on record.

Both Hynek and Vallee had a very fascinating group of friends from what we can only call the 'occult" world. I wasn't aware that the fact wasn't more widely known. I had found quite a bit of information about Dr. Vallee that demonstrated that, but I admit Hynek was somewhat of a surprise.

I'll get around to adding some more stuff here about their friends and associates from that era.

Here's an interesting tidbit: Robert Anton Wilson makes UFO smalltalk with Jacques Vallee at--of all places--Crowleymas!

I had wanted to talk to Doctor Vallee for several months now and I immediately kidnapped him into a room which the other partygoers were not informed about. On the way, we spotted Hymenaeus Alpha (Grady McMurty), Caliph of the Ordo Templi Orientis, and his wife, Phylis. 

The Skeptic had heard Jacques Vallee talk at a conference on Science and Spirit, sponsored by the Theosophical Society, earlier in the year.

He had taken a new approach to the UFO mystery and was systematically feeding all the reports of extraterrestrial contacts into a giant computer.

The computer was programmed to look for various possible repeated patterns. Jacques said that the evidence emerging suggested to him that the UFOs weren't extraterrestrial at all, but that they seemed to be intelligent systems intent on convincing us they were extraterrestrial.
 
[Indeed, even as our Dear Brother Terence McKenna hath said, "We are part of a symbiotic relationship with something which disguises itself as an extraterrestrial invasion so as not to alarm us." -B:.B:.] 

Now the Skeptic started pumping Jacques about his evidence that they weren't extraterrestrial. He started to explain that, analyzing the reports chronologically, it appeared that They (whoever or whatever they are) always strive to give the impression that they are something the society they are visiting can understand.

In medieval sightings, he said, they called themselves angels; in the great 1902 flap in several states, one of the craft spoke to a West Virginia farmer and said they were an airship invented and flown from Kansas; in 1940s-1950s sightings, they often said they were from Venus; since Venus has been examined and seems incapable of supporting life, they now say they are from another star-system in this galaxy.

"Where do you think they come from?" I asked.

Doctor Vallee gave the Gallic form of the classic scientific Not-Speculating-Beyond-The-Data head-shake.

"I can theorize, and theorize, endlessly," he said, "but is it not better to just study the data more deeply and look for clues?" 

"You must have some personal hunch," I insisted. 

He gave in gracefully. "They relate to space-time in ways for which we have, at present, no concepts," he said. "They cannot explain to us because we are not ready to understand."...

 

..."The outstanding quality of UFO contactees," Jacques Vallee said at this point, "was incoherence. I now have grave reservations about all physical details they supply," he said. 

"They are like people after an auto accident. All they know is that something very serious has happened to them." Only the fact that so many cases involve other witnesses, who see something in the sky before the "contactee" has his/her strange experience, justifies the assumption that what happens is more than "subjective."



"Largely," Doctor Vallee summarized, "they come out of it with a new perspective on humanity. A religious perspective, in general terms. But all the details are contradictory and confusing." He regarded green men, purple giant men, physical craft with windows in them, etc., as falling into the category psychologists call "substitute memory," always provided by the ingenious brain when the actual experience is too shocking to be classified.

I asked how many in the room had experienced the contact of what appeared to be Higher Intelligence. Grady and Phylis McMurty put up their hands, as did two young magicians from the Los Angeles area, and myself. Jacques Vallee, curiously, looked as if he might raise his hand, but then evidently changed his mind and did not. I said I inclined to believe the Higher Intelligences were extraterrestrial, and asked what the others thought.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Originally posted by WhereAreTheGoodguys
Love it when I read threads like these that kinda tie into other intrests I have like the JFK assination or 9/11. Awesome thread OP

www.abovetopsecret.com...

^ Thats the most recent thread that comes to mind.

Yeah, that's an awesome thread. I found it awhile back and meant to spend more time on it. I noticed a few minor details that seemed to be mistaken on the first page, but there is definitely some interesting information there.

Everything seems to lead back to these Esoteric beliefs and people...

The more one digs into history and personalities, the more true that becomes. Deciphering and/or decoding meaning from that...that's where the confusion sets in.

reply to post by ThePeopleParty
An orange ball of light with unusual characteristics you say? I can dig it. A recounting of my own sighting can be found on the following page:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks for weighing in and sharing your interesting graphic.

reply to post by The GUT


I don't know but with this Rosicruscianism link I'm not sure that Vallee isn't mixing business with pleasure and letting belief in the spiritual cloud his scientific mind and creating links where there really aren't any , kind of filling in the blanks of the phenomena with belief if you like .

I'm not opposed to Extradimensional per se but I find it far less likely than beings from our dimension due to the fact we know other Planets exist but have no evidence for other dimensions .

I find it odd that in the video I posted he says that he'd be disappointed if it turned out they were from other planets...why ? , because of his beliefs maybe .

Originally posted by gortex
reply to post by The GUT

 

I don't know but with this Rosicruscianism link I'm not sure that Vallee isn't mixing business with pleasure and letting belief in the spiritual cloud his scientific mind and creating links where there really aren't any , kind of filling in the blanks of the phenomena with belief if you like .

I'm not opposed to Extradimensional per se but I find it far less likely than beings from our dimension due to the fact we know other Planets exist but have no evidence for other dimensions .

I find it odd that in the video I posted he says that he'd be disappointed if it turned out they were from other planets...why ? , because of his beliefs maybe .

Contrary to my usual stance of denying the reality of what we term "aliens", which is linked with alleged ETs, it is easier for me to accept beings from other dimensions than from other planets. We do have evidence of other dimensions which are discovered as we progress. Dimensions in light and sound. Dogs hear sounds we don't and those sounds exist in another sound dimension. I've seen documentaries where different light waves were used to expose invisible text in dead sea scrolls and other uses such as famous paintings.

I've also seen many photos where the photographer wasn't aware of what eventually showed up in the photos in addition to what he/she was photographing. But I don't know if there is a link between the other as-of-yet undiscovered dimensions and if there are beings in those dimensions and if there are, are they "our" aliens? And is there a connection between UFOs and these other dimensions. It's just one mystery after another.

reinep.wordpress.com...
Ordinary photographs may display other dimensions !
October 14, 2011 · by Ray · in Latest, Mysteries. ·

"Regular cameras and camcorders often capture the things that humans don’t see with a naked eye."

Originally posted by gortex
I don't know but with this Rosicruscianism link I'm not sure that Vallee isn't mixing business with pleasure and letting belief in the spiritual cloud his scientific mind and creating links where there really aren't any , kind of filling in the blanks of the phenomena with belief if you like .

Very possibly. Or, obversely, as I postulated earlier: Maybe it put them in a unique position to extrapolate a theory that inches closer to the "truth."

I'm not opposed to Extradimensional per se but I find it far less likely than beings from our dimension due to the fact we know other Planets exist but have no evidence for other dimensions.

I often wonder if "dimension" is a misleading word. I lean towards defining dimension--in the ufological sense--more along the lines of intelligent life-forms that normally reside outside our perceptual range.

For example, the electromagnetic spectrum spans a range far beyond our normal senses. We also know that electromagnetic effects have long been associated with UFOs.

It has also been posited, from various sources, that electromagnetic radiation can create high-strangeness, and even psi events, in those affected by them.

Enter Plasma and Plasma Physics:

Bohm, a leading expert in twentieth century plasma physics, observed in amazement that once electrons were in plasma, they stopped behaving like individuals and started behaving as if they were a part of a larger and interconnected whole. Although the individual movements of each electron appeared to be random, vast numbers of electrons were able to produce collective effects that were surprisingly well organized and appeared to behave like a life form.

The plasma constantly regenerated itself and enclosed impurities in a wall in the same way that a biological organism, like the unicellular amoeba, might encase a foreign substance in a cyst. So amazed was Bohm by these life-like qualities that he later remarked that he frequently had the impression that the electron sea was "alive" and that plasma possessed some of the traits of living things. The debate on the existence of plasma-based life forms has been going on for more than 20 years ever since some models showed that plasma can mimic the functions of a primitive cell.

So maybe "dimensional" hints at an aspect of the phenomenon, but isn't really the right word?

Jacques doesn't relate in Forbidden Science II--as far as I remember--if Dr. Hynek was an acquaintance of Anton LaVey, but Dr. Vallee certainly was.

I had always thought of Anton LaVey as a counter-culture mischevious-elf of sorts. Dr. Vallee--although he eventually found LaVey too dark--tells us Anton was a very brilliant man in his own right.

In the following exchanges, it looks like Anton LaVey was the early adopter of a Project Blue Beam-type theory.

I only offer the info as a curiosity of Dr's Hynek & Vallee's occult circle of friendship and food for thought. I am by no means advocating LaVey's suggestion. However, I will say it takes a con to know a con...

Jacques Vallee, Anton LaVey, and Aime Michel

Anton LaVey is interesting when he discusses the nature of secrecy. He points out that people are most thrilled by the impression of ““discovery.”” Therefore if you want the masses to accept your claims, you should never try to reveal anything but you should arrange for them to ““discover”” it. The best process to achieve this is what he calls the Easter Egg Formula:

(i) The magician gets up before everybody else, scattering brightly colored eggs for others to find.

(ii) He hides them in such a way that they can be discovered with relatively little work.

(iii) The secret of the existence of the eggs is leaked out.

(iv) The crowd rushes out and finds them, delighted with this revelation.

(v) Congratulations follow. (vi) Real secrets are safe and the magician's prestige is enhanced. Is this how the belief in UFOs works? Is the undercurrent built on the Easter Egg Formula?

The saucers are indeed like Easter eggs. Someone got up early and scattered them around for us to discover. Then he leaked out the notion that they were extraterrestrial. I'm not interested in discussing the eggs, nor do I care about the scientists who ““explain”” them away. Let's find out who makes them, and why. Actually I think I know ““why.”” The target is human mythology, the most powerful force on Earth. And there is no question that the phenomenon also functions on the material, physical level.

I found that discussion interesting and believe there might be something to the thought. It gets a little crazier though:

I've confronted Anton with the...report on mutilations, which specifically mentions his group. He tried to tell me it was a fabrication by the hippies at the Berkeley Barb. I laughed at this: Flickinger is a Federal Agent with the Treasury Department, not a bearded leftist. So Anton, his back
to the wall, pulled out his wallet and showed me his badge of the San Francisco Police Department:

““I'd have known about it, if the SFPD had uncovered serious evidence. I work closely with their Intelligence unit. They call on me when they have a crime that involves witchcraft or cults, like the murder in Daly City a year ago...””

Anton LaVey Counter-Culture MIB

The idea that Anton had such connections makes sense. He thinks that the government will eventually ““land”” a fake saucer somewhere, behind barbed wire, to generate speculation and demands ““for the release of the data people think the government must be covering up.”” Writer Bernard Newman had proposed such a deception scenario as early as 1950 in his novel, The Flying Saucer .

““Come on, Jacques, it's an old magician's trick,”” he added, intensely serious now. ““They've got to take attention away from real problems. The government’’s right hand does something spectacular to capture people's eyes while their left hand goes on with the real work.”

We do live in very interesting times.

reply to post by The GUT


As much as I disagree with Anton LaVey's "religious" teachings, I have to admit he was a brilliant man. Historically most successful "cult" leaders are. A master of manipulation would easily be able to recognize when others are trying to do the same.

wow wow wow

Fascinating. Interesting!

Originally posted by littled16
A master of manipulation would easily be able to recognize when others are trying to do the same.

this is soo true =D

anton seem to recognize the M.O. of UFO Phenomena.. he knows that the "UFO" itself is just a bread crumb.. he want to know who is pulling the strings..

in my opinion, the one who pull the strings already own anton , as he is just one of the pupppet..

Very interesting thread. I never connected the thread of ET's and the thoughts of esoteric beliefs, theosophy, and the likes. From this thread the connection has lit up, so thank you for sharing all this

I'm very interested in anything that has to do with hermetic thought. Rosicrucian was something that has come up before in my readings as it stemmed from hermetic ideas and beliefs. As one poster said maybe the ideas shared in the RC circles influenced them consciously or not, or sparked ideas toward this. In many ancient cultures there have been sightings or connections with those who come from 'space'. Perhaps they were taught something by these divine and it was passed on from generation to generation through different circles as such.

I like the idea of inter dimensional beings (IDB?), but whether they are from space or another dimension is nothing more than a speculation coming from me. It makes me think shows like Ancient Aliens are disinformation shows to have the public think it's all aliens that have done so much for us. It's quite possible that they have, but to the extent they have shown I don't see why in this manner, through the speakers and scientists chosen, etc. I've read sites like this; ancientaliensdebunked.com...
I do believe they have influenced certain aspects in culture from older civilizations, but I feel that humans have access to powers that enable us to have built such great structures and allowed for such beautiful readings into spirituality. As someone mentioned in the thread, these IDB may be a more advanced 'us' coming back dropping hints just as other people have through out history in their writings. Maybe electricity has a huge part to do with it. Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't plasma in correlation with electricity? I know it's a non solid form of energy. But figures like Tesla have shown how powerful electricity can be. Examples like Fohat, Electricity in the brain going from neuron to neuron (as above, so below), it seems if harnessed properly it can have beautiful creations. Does the electromagnetic thruster thread with NASA (www.abovetopsecret.com...) happen to show a glimpse of what ET's/IDP have access to?

I'm currently reading 'The Secret Doctrine' by H.P Blavatsky and it's a lot of though provoking stuff, but I have to re read quite a bit on the material presented. I started on a book by Steiner, 'How to know higher worlds' and that I had a very hard time fully comprehending his writing. I'm not sure if it's just me, or...

Either way, very beautiful stuff from everyone here. S&F, looking forward to seeing what more I can learn from/bounce thoughts off of.