Born again... and again?

reply to post by wildtimes


........make people afraid and keep them under control.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by wildtimes

 

........make people afraid and keep them under control.

Yeah.
That.
Thanks.

reply to post by wildtimes

It won't ever work until the people who are following the church leaders' interpretation of it ARE MADE AWARE that it is a TOOL. Used to...............

You stating that all Christians follow church leaders' interpretations are about as worthless as me stating that you follow only Buddhist masters', or any other religious masters' interpretations, etc.

We all (well most of us) come to our own conclusions by studying multiple interpretations given my many different sources.

The Holy Spirit only comes through the Word. The Word was made flesh in Jesus Christ.

If you want to follow another spirit, so be it, I won't say that you're wrong. But please don't try to confuse or mix the words of the Holy Spirit with other spirits' interpretations or get mad at me for trying to defend it because you don't like it.

Through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, there is no fear and there is no control. I do not fear reincarnation, for there is no reason to. I do not fear control, for it is limited to this life and this life alone. If you think the entire Bible is nothing more than a made up scare tactic or control method, you haven't convinced anyone because all of you spend too much time talking about it everyday. Or maybe just the opposite. It controls you to the point where you can't stop talking about it or trying to decipher it, I can't decide which.

But regardless, I came here to have a civil discussion and I hope the rest of you are able to do the same, regardless of what side I'm defending and why I defend the side that I do.

reply to post by Deetermined


I don't think anyone here thinks the bible is a book full of nothing but lies, if that were the case we wouldn't be using bible quotes to state our cases would we?

We understand their is truth in it but we also understand their has been a lot of manipulation put into the story as well. Where we disagree is the interpretation of the story.

My (our) interpretation is less convoluted and easier to understand. Even you said that your interpretation is hard to put into words to where everyone can understand it. You don't see a problem with that?

The fact is, reincarnation fits in perfectly with the verses you and others have presented, while your explanation is hard to understand and doesn't fit as nicely. Either way, I agree with most of your post here so star for you.

No need to sling mud, we're just trying to having a civil conversation.

reply to post by Deetermined


You might notice this thread isn't an attack on anyones beliefs... in fact i stated that specifically in the OP.

You are the one attacking us for believing in something you were taught doesn't exist...

You even said "you don't understand why non Christians use the bible"... but the bible is for everyone to read, NOT just Christians...

I've shown you plenty of evidence that reincarnation not only exists, but is mentioned in multiple souces within the bible and many many other places outside of said book. Not only that but do you realize Christianity is the ONLY religion that rejects reincarnation, which leaves others with the impression that Christians believe ONLY Christians are correct about spiritual matters, which is not only very nieve, but WRONG.

You fighting a battle you can't win, and this isn't even a fight.... its a discussion as you stated.

either way i will also follow suit and star your plea...

reply to post by Akragon

I've shown you plenty of evidence that reincarnation not only exists, but is mentioned in multiple souces within the bible and many many other places outside of said book. Not only that but do you realize Christianity is the ONLY religion that rejects reincarnation, which leaves others with the impression that Christians believe ONLY Christians are correct about spiritual matters, which is not only very nieve, but WRONG.

In the Bible there is mention that people thought that John the Baptist was Elijah, but I think I posted enough information (including from John himself) that it was denied, but it's up to each individual as to whether or not they want to believe it.

As for Christianity being the only religion that rejects reincarnation, I can only refer you to these verses.

John 10:7-8

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Believe what you want, but personally, I believe the "thieves and robbers" were the false "gods" that came before Jesus teaching doctrines that weren't of God and led the Israelites into worshiping idols and God knows what else. We all know from the very beginning that Satan told Adam and Eve that they wouldn't die either. These other "gods" must have been very convincing in order to get the Israelites to go back to worshiping them, even after God led them out of Egypt. We shouldn't underestimate their power, even today.

reply to post by Deetermined

In the Bible there is mention that people thought that John the Baptist was Elijah, but I think I posted enough information (including from John himself)

So you actually prefer Johns words to Jesus...

Yes John said no im not... John did not retain his knowledge of being in the presence of God as Jesus did... so johns statement was nothing more then an assumption... how would he know?

Thus Jesus words Trump johns... John said no.... but Jesus said YES

Its a clear contradiction, so who was correct?

As for Christianity being the only religion that rejects reincarnation, I can only refer you to these verses.

John 10:7-8

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Believe what you want, but personally, I believe the "thieves and robbers" were the false "gods" that came before Jesus teaching doctrines that weren't of God and led the Israelites into worshiping idols and God knows what else. We all know from the very beginning that Satan told Adam and Eve that they wouldn't die either. These other "gods" must have been very convincing in order to get the Israelites to go back to worshiping them, even after God led them out of Egypt. We shouldn't underestimate their power, even today

Funny i believe the same thing... As i've said previously in this thread, you won't see me trying to disprove Jesus' words. One of those "false Gods" you're talking about made his home in the OT.

So you're right... he was a theif, and a robber... even a maniacal lunitic bent on revenge against his own children... Lucky they were never his to begin with... He was also a liar, perhaps even "the father of lies"

But as you said.... believe whatever you like

reply to post by Akragon


I love this post, I wish I could star it a thousand times.

The OT god is a false god, so is the churches version of Jesus' father. Jesus wasn't in this exclusive club like the church wants you to think, everyone is in the club and we all have eternal life. Jesus' father is my father and your father and everyone else's father, including animals.

Anything with consciousness is a "son" of god, because consciousness IS god, in my opinion.

Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence points to the probability that reincarnation does indeed happen. I don't want to ever have to come back, but it looks like at least some people do come back. God can do anything He wants. He isn't trapped between the pages of a book (the bible or the qu'ran) and he isn't chained to the laws of physics. If He wants some people to come back .. they'll come back. I just hope I'm done coming back ... I'm too dang tired ....

reply to post by FlyersFan


FF, would you mind providing some sources for anecdotal evidence that you find particularly compelling? I agree with you, but so many of the "recent" cases (like little James Leininger (sp?) who was presented as a WWII fighter pilot) seem to be debunked.

I'd love to have some evidence aside from Dr Stevenson's amazing work. His, to me, is the most convincing.

reply to post by Akragon

Funny i believe the same thing... As i've said previously in this thread, you won't see me trying to disprove Jesus' words. One of those "false Gods" you're talking about made his home in the OT.

Well, if you truly believed Jesus' words, then you'd know that Jesus referenced his Father as being the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, so I guess you don't believe him after all.

reply to post by Deetermined


Deetermined,
I can't help but notice that you feel you are quite the adept at "defining" what others think and believe. And you don't hesitate to "inform" us of what we feel, as though you are inside each one of our heads and reading our minds.

It's not your place to tell others what they "believe", and I wonder why you feel it's appropriate to impose your judgment or assessment in that way. You seem to enjoy telling people they "don't believe" or have "written things off" or "dismissed them" or are "ignorant" heathens and sinners who haven't got a clue.

Why is that? Just curious.

There are as many paths to God as there are people. This morning I was looking at this website
Spiritual Science Research Foundation, which states as much, on this page:
Basic principles of Spirituality: There are as many paths to God as there are people

You recently suggested I should look into the "negative spirits" ideology. This site happens to describe them.

It uses Eastern thinking, but is exceptionally astute as to the different states of "grace" or "spiritual maturity." I spent a couple of hours on there, and still have many more hours to go.

Just wondered whether you give any kind of credence to alternative ways of looking at it, or have any respect at all for the various paths people are compelled to take. If not your own path, they are summarily WRONG?

Or, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. I would not presume to be fully familiar with your beliefs; but it is difficult to ignore your judgmental attitude as presented here.

Care to discuss? (Without telling me what I think, or dismissing my own research as poppycock, that is.) Are you even capable of it?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

Funny i believe the same thing... As i've said previously in this thread, you won't see me trying to disprove Jesus' words. One of those "false Gods" you're talking about made his home in the OT.

Well, if you truly believed Jesus' words, then you'd know that Jesus referenced his Father as being the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, so I guess you don't believe him after all.

Simple explaination my friend...

But you have to wait til after work to hear it...

reply to post by wildtimes

It's not your place to tell others what they "believe", and I wonder why you feel it's appropriate to impose your judgment or assessment in that way. You seem to enjoy telling people they "don't believe" or have "written things off" or "dismissed them" or are "ignorant" heathens and sinners who haven't got a clue.

Why is that? Just curious.

I don't have to tell others what they believe, they (including you) have already said it yourselves. All I did was repeat it. Did I ever use the word "ignorant"? No. You did. I see some psychological projection going on here.

reply to post by Deetermined

There you go again, stating what "you see", without regard to whether it's accurate or not.

If you want to parse words by claiming you never used the word ignorant, I can do what you do and say "I know you think others are ignorant because of how you respond to those who see things differently than you do; that is, you tell them they 'don't understand', or 'don't interpret it correctly', or 'don't believe' what you see as the only truth."

"Ignorant" means lack of knowledge or understanding, Dee. It means being incapable of seeing something. You seem confident and certain that we 'don't understand' the things we are discussing: meaning, we are ignorant of what they mean.

I asked you several questions, and made some declarative statements. I can rephrase those declaratives into questions for you, that way you will be make it more clear whether you are actually skirting or refusing to answer them. To wit:
Do you give any kind of credence to alternative ways of looking at things spiritual?

Do you have any respect at all for the various paths people are compelled to take?

Do you without reservations declare that if someone does not follow your path, they are summarily WRONG?

Am I misunderstanding you?

Would you care to discuss the impression that I have, insofar as I do not presume to be fully familiar with your beliefs?.

Do you dispute that you present a judgmental attitude, and that you presume to know what others think and believe?

Are you capable of discussing this without telling me what I think, or dismissing my own research as poppycock?

Thought I'd give it one more shot at understanding you, and at making myself understood, whether you're having any of it or not. Your response may, or may not, indicate your character to be different than what I have gathered so far. Up to you.

If you don't choose to answer, I can only go by what I've seen. You can't say I never asked for clarification, nor can you say I offered none when you misinterpreted my thoughts and beliefs.

Well, you can say it, but it would clearly be untrue.

reply to post by wildtimes

You seem confident and certain that we 'don't understand' the things we are discussing: meaning, we are ignorant of what they mean.

To put it simply, it's not that I don't think you understand the things we are discussing, I just don't think you understand the Biblical point of view on it. That's what I was trying to explain on the previous page of this thread.

If you want to believe in other spirits, if you want to believe in reincarnation, if you want to believe in others paths and believe that all of it leads to God, fine. All I've asked is that you try not to insist that this is what the Bible teaches.

I will conclude by saying, it is my opinion, that the Bible does not teach that all paths lead to God. If you want to believe that all paths do, so be it. I'm sure there's plenty of other texts and religions out there that teach that theory without using the Bible or Christianity to try and promote it.

reply to post by Deetermined

I will conclude by saying, it is my opinion, that the Bible does not teach that all paths lead to God.

I do not think she was saying this either. But, that a strict Christian religious life isn't the only way to God.

Do you think that following Jesus's blueprint, but doing it their own way, will lead them to hell?

Originally posted by jhill76

I do not think she was saying this either. But, that a strict Christian religious life isn't the only way to God.

Well, in a recent thread that Wildtimes started, she did imply this.

Do you think that following Jesus's blueprint, but doing it their own way, will lead them to hell?

As for following Jesus' blueprint, I think that's a starting point, but I don't think most people realize that the blueprint starts with and includes loving Jesus with all of their heart and mind.

reply to post by Deetermined

I will c, onclude by saying, it is my opinion, that the Bible does not teach that all paths lead to God. If you want to believe that all paths do, so be it. I'm sure there's plenty of other texts and religions out there that teach that theory without using the Bible or Christianity to try and promote it.

I see. You want me be "mitts off" with the Bible while I'm exploring. Got it.
Some people believe it does, indeed, teach reincarnation. And in my opinion, the Bible is available (in its present editted form), for anyone to look at, and to interpret it "from a Biblical point of view".

You believe that you have the actual meaning perfectly understood.
I believe that it does not necessarily mean what you think it means; same as you telling me it does (and you omitted necessarily) mean what you think it means, period.

You didn't answer any of the questions. Never mind. Peace to you, Dee.

reply to post by Deetermined

As for following Jesus' blueprint, I think that's a starting point, but I don't think most people realize that the blueprint starts with and includes loving Jesus with all of their heart and mind.

Jesus did not require one to love him, in order to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. He did require love for God, whom he didn't claim to be, love for neighbor and love for your enemies.

As for following Jesus, his first requirement was to give up all your possession, forsaking even your family. Have you done that? If not, then you also are following Jesus by your own rules, making it up and cherry picking as you go along.

As far a Jesus teaching reincarnation, what is more important is that he taught the way to freedom from the physical body, comparing an enlightened and awakened soul to the wind, going wither it wills. Therefore, if a soul prefers not sleep in the grave, but to re-experience life again, it can do as it wishes.

Additionally, Jesus taught that what is bound in this life, will be also bound in heaven, but what is not bound in this life is not bound in heaven. This indicates that there will be unfinished business and imperfection in heaven. Perhaps, reincarnation accounts for that imperfect existence.