Born again... and again?

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posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 09:13 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


Why would Christians consider it threatening?

It's no sweat off our back either way.

We're just offering up the Biblical side of the argument for those who aren't familiar with the Biblical view.
And that "Biblical view" has just been exposed as untrue!

So, Dee, do you agree that reincarnation is possible/plausible?

(It's okay if you do. It won't send you to hell.
)
edit on 9-10-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by sugarcookie1
 


have to start of with I'm not a religious person never have been and Ive never even opened a bible to read these verses everyone seems to know so well in here..

But i have thought on reincarnation a bit because I'm terminally sick and i think people in my place think about this kinda thing more then most..

Sugarcookie,
I'm sad to hear this. (Not the part about you never opening a Bible....that's not necessary to get the idea of what's real).
I would feel privileged to be in touch with you on a more private plane/level.

Wow.
My warmest healing feelings go out to you.

edit on 9-10-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


You mean the verses that can be interpreted in more than one way?

Jesus didn't die FOR our sins, he died BECAUSE of our sins. He died because the people in power back then loved power and money more than truth. They knew what Jesus said would take power away from them so they murdered him then took his story into their own hands and distorted it.

edit on 9-10-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 06:12 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Deetermined
 


Why would Christians consider it threatening?

It's no sweat off our back either way.

We're just offering up the Biblical side of the argument for those who aren't familiar with the Biblical view.
And that "Biblical view" has just been exposed as untrue!

So, Dee, do you agree that reincarnation is possible/plausible?

(It's okay if you do. It won't send you to hell.
)
edit on 9-10-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)


You did no such thing.

All you did was prove resurrection, not reincarnation.

Maybe we should have defined what reincarnation is from the beginning. It's my understanding that reincarnation is when a soul leaves one human body after death and inhabits another human body. More than one human body with the same soul. This is not the case in the Bible.

Personally, that's why I think EnochwasRight always comments in these types of threads. I think he considers them one and the same, and they aren't. Notice that his posts always use the term "resurrection", which is what it is.
edit on 10-10-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 06:25 AM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 




Jesus didn't die FOR our sins, he died BECAUSE of our sins. He died because the people in power back then loved power and money more than truth. They knew what Jesus said would take power away from them so they murdered him then took his story into their own hands and distorted it.


No, they didn't.

Read John 10 again.

Why does everyone ignore the fact that Jesus said that he came to bring eternal life? He actually used the word "save". And he claimed he was doing it for the people who followed him. And he claimed he was going to lay down his life for them. What's so hard to understand about that?

Now, whether or not you want to believe that the reason Jesus died was FOR our sins are not, Jesus still said to repent and he told his disciples to preach repentance among all the nations starting in Jerusalem.

So, whether or not you want to believe that you're saved by grace or by repentance, it is only through Jesus' death that we all will get to experience eternal life with God.

Remember, after Jesus died (and before he resurrected three days later), he descended to the heart of the earth to "release the souls in prison". Without his death, the souls would never had been able to be released and ascend to Heaven. The Bible says that Jesus is the one who holds the keys to death and Hades.

That's also why the Bible says that Jesus preached "the gospel of the kingdom". The kingdom of God.
edit on 10-10-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 06:42 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 




1) Scientific research has discovered many cases of prior life memory recollections among young children. These recalls were studied, categorized and confirmed through rigorous research.


Never underestimate the power of ALL of the spirits in the spirit realm. They are not human spirits and they do talk and influence people here on earth.



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 07:15 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 



All you did was prove resurrection, not reincarnation.

What? I didn't "prove" ANYTHING! !! I can't prove either of them, or disprove them, and neither can you.

I showed outside studies that point to where the Bible and Jesus both speak of reincarnation (a soul that returns to earth in another body after the death of a previous body). I can find more, if you like, and give you a list of books to read as well.

I showed that in Israel at the time, reincarnation was a widely-held belief. I showed that reincarnation was first developed more than a thousand years BEFORE Jesus, and still has many, many adherents. I showed HISTORY. I showed where the ideas CAME FROM.

As far as I can tell, from studying outside of the Bible Jesus did not die on the cross, he was part of a plan, and Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea doctored him. Furthermore, reincarnation was believed from "antiquity". Jesus talked about Elijah not being recognized. He is also thought to be a mystic master. Those things make more sense to me than a corpse walking around eating, drinking, touching people.

(I don't know what EnochWasRight thinks "reincarnation" is. He baffles me. And most smokers don't get cancer.)

edit on 10-10-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)


And besides, your cranky response did not answer my friendly question. Do you think it's possible?
It was a yes or no question, and did not warrant your attack.
edit on 10-10-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 07:54 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 




the Bible and Jesus both speak of reincarnation


I've read your posts and I didn't see any scripture as it relates to reincarnation. I did see points made regarding resurrection though.

Yes, please give me scripture that speaks of reincarnation other than the one Akragon already posted. I've already pointed out why I don't think Job 1:21 is relating to reincarnation based on the fact that Job also said this...

Job 30:23

23 For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 08:03 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


I repeat: I showed outside studies that point to where the Bible and Jesus both speak of reincarnation.

I don't show "scripture". You are free to click the links to the sources I've already provided; they are loaded with scripture passages that have been considered by people studying it, who know far more than I know. (Or than you know). It irritates me that you don't acknowledge the sources, ever, and instead respond with simple contrariness.



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 08:21 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


Fine, Dee. I won't quote the scriptures, I'm not an expert. I'll point you to EVEN MORE of others' work, though, that lists them, besides the ones I've already posted.
Here you go:
Biblical References to Reincarnation

BIBLE ACCOUNTS THAT SUGGEST REINCARNATION

King James Bible & Reincarnation



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 

Why does everyone ignore the fact that Jesus said that he came to bring eternal life? He actually used the word "save". And he claimed he was doing it for the people who followed him. And he claimed he was going to lay down his life for them. What's so hard to understand about that?

Now, whether or not you want to believe that the reason Jesus died was FOR our sins are not, Jesus still said to repent and he told his disciples to preach repentance among all the nations starting in Jerusalem.

So, whether or not you want to believe that you're saved by grace or by repentance, it is only through Jesus' death that we all will get to experience eternal life with God.

Remember, after Jesus died (and before he resurrected three days later), he descended to the heart of the earth to "release the souls in prison". Without his death, the souls would never had been able to be released and ascend to Heaven. The Bible says that Jesus is the one who holds the keys to death and Hades.

That's also why the Bible says that Jesus preached "the gospel of the kingdom". The kingdom of God.
edit on 10-10-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)


Jesus was a man who realized that life is eternal - he shared his findings, he spread the good news.
Life is eternal but humans think they are born and then will die, this is the human belief. Life will never end because there is only life.


Eternal life is here and now always. This here and nowness (present) is the kingdom of God
Imagination tells tales of past and future and somewhere else and man is decieved.
edit on 10-10-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Some of these don't make sense to me at all as referring to reincarnation, but I'll pull a few of them and give you my opinion. If there are any specific verses in your last link that you would like addressed, let me know.



Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


I'm not sure how someone interprets this verse as being related to reincarnation, but maybe study of the previous verse will help to make it more clear.

Genesis 9:5

5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.



Job 8 (Reincarnation in Chapter 8)


If we're talking about Job 8:8-9, this is Bildad speaking and directing Job to ancient traditions where the former generations would ask their fathers what they learned. Bildad is merely saying that compared to former generations, they were born only yesterday and know nothing.

8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers:

9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow




Psa 90:1 (Reincarnation verses 1-6)


Psalm 90:1-6

90 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

I'm not sure how this relates to reincarnation. These verses state that God has been around since the beginning of time and a human life is short in comparison. A human life to God is like one day where it's young and fresh in the morning and old, tired and crippled by evening. Verse 3 is merely saying, "return, ye children of men" away from destruction.



Prov 8:22 (Reincarnation 22-31)


Proverbs 8:22-31. Actually let's look at the verses further down to get a better understanding.

Proverbs 8:30-36

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord.

36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

This is all prophecy of Jesus to come. The Old Testament is FILLED with prophecy about the coming of Jesus and his purpose for coming to earth. Jesus always said that he was the only one who had seen God and that he had been there with him from the beginning and before the creation of the world or men.

www.powerattunements.com...


edit on 10-10-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 10:17 AM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 




Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: (Reincarnation - John the Baptist was Elijah.)


John the Baptist said he was not Elijah.

John 1:21

21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

The angel, Gabriel, tell John's own father who John would be. He said John would be born with the Holy Spirit, allowing him to come with the spirit and power of Elijah to pave the path for Jesus before Jesus started preaching.

Luke

13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

I think a lot of people are once again confusing the Holy Spirit with the spirit of man. The Holy Spirit witnesses to man's spirit to confirm truth. Making two witnesses. This is not proof that man's spirit always existed like that of the Holy Spirit.



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


To expand further on John the Baptist. Here is what John himself says:

Matthew 3:1-3

3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

John himself says that he is the "voice of one crying in the wilderness" as the prophet Elijah had spoken of. Not that he was Elijah.

Edit to add: As for the verse in Matthew 11:14 of Jesus saying...

Matthew 11:14

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

When you read the following verse, you know that Jesus is saying to use the Holy Spirit to decipher what he's saying, because there's an underlying meaning to it.

Matthew 11:15

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Anytime you read the above verse anywhere in the Bible (and it's stated many times), expect it to mean that the answer does not come obvious, but through interpretation by the Holy Spirit.

edit on 10-10-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


Yes, they did.




Can you list one verse where Jesus says you have to believe he died on the cross to enter heaven? No, because he never said anything of the sort, so the question is why do you believe that to be the case? Because a murderer said so?
edit on 10-10-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 10-10-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 



Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
(Reincarnation)


So, do you believe what John said? Or what Jesus said about him? Jesus was the Master, John (his cousin) had "paved the way". Just because John did not RECALL being Elias (or whatever, some versions say Elijah) doesn't mean he WASN'T.

Very, very few people recall their previous lives. That doesn't mean they didn't have previous lives; it means they don't remember them, which is part of the grand plan........Jesus knew more and was telling them what he knew.

Even on that same site (these are pasted from the King James link in my previous post), it refers to John as both Elijah AND Elias:

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: (Reincarnation - John the Baptist was Elijah.)

Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. (Reincarnation when Elias returned as John the Baptist.)


You don't want to do the Prov 22-31? Why not?

I looked them up (google), and found this version from Amplified Bible,

Proverbs 8:22-31 (Amplified Bible)

22 The Lord formed and brought me [Wisdom] forth at the beginning of His way, before His acts of old.
23 I [Wisdom] was inaugurated and ordained from everlasting, from the beginning, before ever the earth existed.
24 When there were no deeps, I was brought forth, when there were no fountains laden with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 While as yet He had not made the land or the fields or the first of the dust of the earth.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I [Wisdom] was there; when He drew a circle upon the face of the deep and stretched out the firmament over it,
28 When He made firm the skies above, when He established the fountains of the deep,
29 When He gave to the sea its limit and His decree that the waters should not transgress [across the boundaries set by] His command, when He appointed the foundations of the earth—
30 Then I [Wisdom] was [a]beside Him as a master and director of the work; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing before Him always,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited earth and delighting in the sons of men.
Footnotes:
Proverbs 8:30 See Wisdom here present and involved at creation as an attribute of God.


Apparently the Amplified Bible editor thinks Jesus is simply a mythical person representing Wisdom?

I dunno.

edit on 10-10-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 




So, do you believe what John said? Or what Jesus said about him? Jesus was the Master, John (his cousin) had "paved the way". Just because John did not RECALL being Elias (or whatever, some versions say Elijah) doesn't mean he WASN'T.


You don't even understand Matthew 17:13. Even the disciples knew who Jesus was talking about. It does not say that the disciples knew that John was Elijah literally. It says that they know Jesus was talking about John when he referenced Elijah.

THOSE WHO HAVE EARS, LET THEM HEAR!

Why do you think Jesus made the above statement right after he mentioned the name Elias in Matthew 11:15? The disciples figured it out. You obviously haven't.



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


The whole chapter of Proverbs 8 is prophecy regarding Jesus and who he was and would be before he came here.

Just as I am now also realizing that Psalm 22 was prophecy predicting the death of Jesus, in which Jesus quoted it while on the cross (pole, stake, whatever).

Psalm 22:1

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?....



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


Okay. Obviously. You're right: I'm a dumb-ass who hasn't figured it out. Neither I, nor the millions of people who believe there is a case for reincarnation, or have experienced very strange sensations of "remembrance" and "recognition" of people and places we come across, have figured it out.

None of us. All dumb-asses. Intelligence and education notwithstanding, nor open-minded research. All idiots.

The Bible is all that matters. Only the Bible. Oh, and your brilliant and exceptional interpretation of it.

*turns other cheek*
May I have my ticket to hell now, please?
edit on 10-10-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 




Okay. I'm a dumb-ass who hasn't figured it out. Neither I, nor the millions of people who believe there is a case for reincarnation, or have experienced very strange sensations of "remembrance" and "recognition" of people and places we come across, have figured it out.


I don't think you're dumb. I just don't think you have the current ability to decipher between different spirits and what they're capable of. All I suggest is some more research on demons and spirits and how they behave. I think you'll find it fascinating, if not shocking. They go to great lengths to deceive.





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