Born again... and again?

reply to post by Deetermined

You don't even understand Matthew 17:13. Even the disciples knew who Jesus was talking about. It does not say that the disciples knew that John was Elijah literally. It says that they know Jesus was talking about John when he referenced Elijah.

Well i understand all the gospels completely.... Perhaps instead of looking at a verse that dances around the answer... you should refer to the spot where he said it specifically...


12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this IS Elias, which was for to come.

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

reply to post by Akragon


I was researching Melchizedek for this thread www.abovetopsecret.com...

When I found this:

Hebrews 7:
6 This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 And without doubt the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8 In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. 9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

Is Paul saying that Levi, the son of Jacob, was Abraham?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Can you list one verse where Jesus says you have to believe he died on the cross to enter heaven? No, because he never said anything of the sort, so the question is why do you believe that to be the case? Because a murderer said so?

I'm sorry that the whole chapter of John 10 doesn't make sense to you.

No matter how much some of you want to bash Paul, what he preached wasn't anything new.

It was all prophesied in Isaiah 53.

Just like Jesus recited the first verse of Psalm 22 before he died.

The books of Isaiah and Psalm were available to all the people of that time to connect the dots of what Jesus spoke.

reply to post by Akragon

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Deep study into the book of Matthew will tell you that "the kingdom of heaven" is referring to Israel. This is why I suggested research into the way that Israel will be when Jesus is ruling from Jerusalem during the Millennium.

reply to post by Deetermined


I have read John 10 and I see nothing that says you must believe he died on the cross. Maybe I missed it? Could you refer to the exact verse within John 10 that says you must believe he died?

Him predicting he would die because of what he said is completely different than him saying you must believe he died. I'm sorry you can't differentiate between the two.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Deep study into the book of Matthew will tell you that "the kingdom of heaven" is referring to Israel. This is why I suggested research into the way that Israel will be when Jesus is ruling from Jerusalem during the Millennium.

Let me correct you a bit...

Deep "christian" study you mean.... which implies studying materials the church tells you to study in whatever way or method they tell you to do it...

Do you honestly believe i haven't "studied" matthew?

Thats a little insulting...

Have you read my recent thread about the snake?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Its just a quick example of what happens in "Christian" study...

reply to post by Akragon

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this IS Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Obviously, it's going to take a much longer and deeper explanation than what I can give here in order to make anyone understand, so I can only offer up this link as a fuller explanation, which includes a deeper explanation into "The Transfiguration of Jesus" as spoken of in the very beginning of Matthew 17.

thirdmill.org...

One again, "he that hath ears to hear, let him hear".

reply to post by Deetermined


So you tell me to try deep (christian) study... which i reject either way...

Then you give me a link from yet another Christian source....

when the verse i offered wasn't even in Matthew 17

*sigh*

Try matthew 11...

reply to post by Deetermined


Ever heard of Occam's Razor? It states "the simplest answer is usually correct", the fact that you can't explain your answer in simple terms goes to show just how convoluted it is. How could something that should have been so easy to understand (according to Jesus) turn into this convoluted mess that you yourself can't explain coherently?

The more convoluted, the less likely it is correct. That is basic logic, something you are sorely lacking right now.


ETA: The simplest answer to the question is reincarnation, it makes the most sense when used in context with the verses. Sorry you can't see it, religion is blinding you to it.

reply to post by Akragon


Regardless, until you study the Millennium, you won't be able to decipher most of the timing of the events of Jesus' second coming or anything else relating to heaven until you do. It's important to be able to know the difference of which one is being spoken about in order for any of it to make sense.

Funny thing is i know exactly whats comming next... i've been through this arguement many many times...

So lets clear one thing up....

One of Christianity's arguements against the "reincarnation" of Elias... is as follows...

How could john be Elias when John was still alive when Jesus said that...

Well thats quite simple actually...

In Matthew 11 Jesus said specifically "this is Elias"... Matthew 14 is when John was executed...

And Matthew 17 is when the transfiguration takes place... John was dead when Elias appeared on the mount with moses...

There is simply no other explaination.... Unless of course you into "deep christian study"... which im not...

I'll refer everyone once again to my story about the snake...

The link is in my previous reply on this page...

Regardless, until you study the Millennium, you won't be able to decipher most of the timing of the events of Jesus' second coming or anything else relating to heaven until you do. It's important to be able to know the difference of which one is being spoken about in order for any of it to make sense.

Im sorry but i don't need any christian indoctrination to tell me what the words in that book say...

Its clear as day... Only Christians complicate the issue...

reply to post by Akragon


Until you understand Matthew 17, you're not going to understand the entirety of Matthew 11. It's called cross referencing. Plus, I've already quoted Matthew 11 myself in this thread along with an explanation anyway.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

Until you understand Matthew 17, you're not going to understand the entirety of Matthew 11. It's called cross referencing. Plus, I've already quoted Matthew 11 myself in this thread along with an explanation anyway.

edit on 10-10-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

Again let me correct you here....

You actually mean...

Until you become Christian, and believe what we do.... Until you get a "priest/minister/pastor" to confirm what you say... its automatically wrong...

I understand matthew my friend... likely better then most christians...

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Ever heard of Occam's Razor? It states "the simplest answer is usually correct", the fact that you can't explain your answer in simple terms goes to show just how convoluted it is.

I've been very coherent in my explanations. No, the "simplest answer is usually correct" only for those who don't have ears to hear because they don't want to hear. Or better yet, because they don't even know what the Holy Spirit is in order to have those ears to hear.

reply to post by Akragon

There is simply no other explaination.... Unless of course you into "deep christian study"... which im not...

Then why do you always post scripture to try and back up your arguments?

I think Jiggerj is right, you're fooling yourself when you try to use scripture as part of your arguments when you admit that you don't even study it to know what it means in the first place.

reply to post by Deetermined


So in a nutshell.... what you're saying is that as long as the answer fits in with your preconceptions it is right, no matter how convoluted it is?

Awesome logic there!

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

There is simply no other explaination.... Unless of course you into "deep christian study"... which im not...

Then why do you always post scripture to try and back up your arguments?

I think Jiggerj is right, you're fooling yourself when you try to use scripture as part of your arguments when you admit that you don't even study it to know what it means in the first place.

mhmmm... have you noticed Jiggerj has not returned since i replied to him?

I think you're sinking to the usual Christian tactics now bro...

When all else fails.... We insult people until they go away... or return insults to change the topic

That doesn't work with me my friend

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I don't understand why non-Christians just don't leave the Bible to Christians instead of trying to use a Christian tool to argue for a non-Christian view. It will never work, no matter how hard you try. You can't use something as a tool that you think you understand without having studied it first.

I'm wasting my time here.

Peace.

reply to post by Deetermined

I don't understand why non-Christians just don't leave the Bible to Christians instead of trying to use a Christian tool to argue for a non-Christian view. It will never work, no matter how hard you try.

Nope, no matter how hard we try.
You're right, again.
It won't ever work until the people who are following the church leaders' interpretation of it ARE MADE AWARE that it is a TOOL. Used to...............
nm

reply to post by Deetermined


It looks like you are the one without ears to hear.

Not only did you waste your time, you wasted our time too. You just can't admit you are wrong can you? If you did, that cozy little spot in hell would be waiting for you, right? So instead of opening your mind, you close it even further and then run away.