The son of man on the cloud in Revelations 14:14?

reply to post by SimonPeter

Why do you masquerade as a 7th day Adventist instead of a Preterits ?

(my spell checker apparently was not working last night, I just noticed a typo, "crowd" was what I meant, not coud, which is not a word.)

I don't know if what I am doing is "masquerading", as you say. I am a Seventh Day Adventist, just not of the cultist variety, being born into it as a fourth generation Adventist. I was baptized by an ordained Adventist minister and accepted into the congregation, and remain a member in good standing.
Adventists believe in a concept of eschatological interpretation that they call 'apotelesmatic', which means they can see the fulfillment of prophecies exactly as the Preterists do, but that there are double meanings to them, where you see it again fulfilled at a later time but on a global scale, rather than the past, local version. So there is a repetition in what Jesus warned about, to where we today should also take warning for our own time.
This principle also applies to Old Testament prophecies that were for the Israelites, that were fulfilled in a literal way but have also another fulfillment, either by Jesus in the times already past, or still in the future.
I believed all that up until a few months ago, where now I put more emphasis on the completed fulfillment, and push forward whatever future fulfillment there may or may not be, so far forward that they hold no relevancy to us as being anything that will happen in our own lifetimes.

reply to post by SimonPeter

You also must believe that the bible is totally wrong . There is no way that the mark of the beast and one world government has happened .

To start out, I may want to make a comment about yourself. You seem to have an interpretation unique to you, so it may not be such a good idea to criticize others on grounds of being unorthodox.

There is a method of of interpretation that existed relatively unchallenged since the New Testament was written. This is what the "rapture" enthusiast crowd would call Preterism. It should be pointed out that what those people believe in is an invention of the nineteenth century by very suspicious characters of the unsavory variety who were spiritual mercenaries, meaning, 'inventors of new religions for hire'.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I'm not sure what you are trying to say .I'm not sure your know what you are trying to say either . The Preterits wanted to apply the 2nd Temple times and events to the end times prophecy . But guess what it doesn't work with the 2000 years that has passed . Ezekiel 38 has not happened as of yet . Ezekiel 39 is the part where Jesus comes to save Israel . The plague that Israel pours out on those that comes against Israel in Zechzriah 14 verse 12 the Abomb of course has not happened yet .
Pure logic says the Preterits views are unfounded but they still cling to them why ?

reply to post by SimonPeter

There is no way that the mark of the beast and one world government has happened . Then what about the 1000 year reign . From the time of Jesus and his sacrifice for sin he has not returned .And then there is the question what is going on now ?
The way you have chosen to believe you have discredited the very bible from which you are supposed to believe . I don't know your belief crisis but it is very much bordering on disbelief in my opinion .When I say crisis , I have come to understand that there are reasons people choose to believe as they do . Those reasons are mostly fear .The fear of commitment , the fear that they will not be able to sustain their commitment , the fear of of having to give your life to resist the mark and the fear of a long agonizing resisting of the Antichrist . Then there is having to abandon everything that you own to reject the Mark . And lastly the fact that you will have to walk away from those you love who do not share your faith in the Lord .
So lets say it already happened or we will be snatched out before we have to make those hard decisions .
Boy that sounds like commitment to the Lord to me . What is your reason ?

This is all a little deranged in my opinion, the idea that if you do not follow my methodology of interpretation, of sifting through a whole mess of symbolic references, and choosing which fragments exactly to take literally, then you just don't have any faith.
What you should learn through some self education by diligent study in theological books, is that there is a whole myriad of interpretive solutions out there and picking one over another is not necessarily an indication of lack of faith or moral resolve.
Your own interpretation, it seems clear enough to me, is highly influenced by previous interpretations, and is not wholly of your own production. There are indications of borrowings from theological systems that went through these visions of John and made certain decisions on them, what to focus on and speculate on, and what parts to ignore or take as mere metaphorical illusions.
Looking at Revelation as a whole unit, it should be clear that it is an allegorical study on the importance of staying true to the religion as delivered by the Apostles, to be able to resist the temptations of the world, and only those who are over-comers will enter into eternal life.
Taking bits out of that and attempting to construct a physical, practical model, from something never meant to be used in that way, detracts from the simple message that is to guide us along a path of trusting in the Lord.

reply to post by ahnggk

Matthew 24 is about a global cataclysm.

Rather than a lecture on cataclysms, how about explaining how you came to the above conclusion?

reply to post by SimonPeter

The Preterits wanted to apply the 2nd Temple times and events to the end times prophecy

I know what I am trying to say, so the problem is not on my end.
I may not feel like going into a lengthy dissertation right now on every prophecy in the Bible.
To start out, what you need to do is construct an intelligible argument for the existence of what you are calling an "end times".

reply to post by jmdewey60


The end times are the times that haven't happened yet or we would not here talking about it now .
Question #1. Do you believe God will destroy the earth with fire ?
Question #2 Do you believe Jesus when he said he would come back in the Clouds to reap the harvest?
Question #3 Do you believe we will remain on earth to live out eternity ?
Question #4 . Do you believe that the 144000 Virgin Jewish Men are the only one to be taken to heaven ?
Question # 5 Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin , Son of God, died on the cross , rose on the 3rd day and ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God ?
I will answer your questions . Will you answer mine ?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Rather than a lecture on cataclysms, how about explaining how you came to the above conclusion?

Matthew 24:22
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

What else could potentially cause the death of ALL humans???
a. Queen's birthday
b. Nuclear/radiation holocaust
c. Massive volcanism
d. Asteroid/comet impact
e. Massive methane release causing runaway extreme global warming
f. Global outbreak of a deadly, 'alien' plants and/or animal pathogen(s)
h. Direct hit from a gamma ray outburst
g. All of the above

Matthew 24:16-18
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.

What could cause you to desperately flee to the mountains??
a. IRS audit
b. Acid rain
c. Massive tsunamis
d. Massive pyroclastic flows from erupting volcano(s)

Matthew 24:29
“Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

What could cause such phenomenon??
a. Olympic games opening ceremony
b. Massive volcanism, enveloping the Earth with a thick cloud of ash and dust
c. Asteroid/comet impact(s) doing the same as (b) but also causing a massive blast wave making heavenly bodies appear to shake/fall due to refraction caused by it.
d. Both b and c

What was present during the last three major extinctions on Earth?
- Climate change
- Sea level fluctuations
- Massive volcanism
- Multiple impact events (asteroid comets)

What was interesting and worrying at the same time there is that the last two major extinction events, the massive volcanism SHORTLY preceded the Asteroid/comet impacts

Does that tell you something at all???

Asteroid/comet impacts = external factors, Volcanism = internal factors. Two seemingly unconnected entities, yet occurring at roughly the same time. Not one seem to have noticed.

Because there are so many things we don't understand about nature. We don't know about the Earth, we don't know if it's alive, communicating with the Sun, the galactic core, begging for help/rescue, begging to rid her of the scum which is us!!

reply to post by jmdewey60

Who are these "most Christians" that think that.

I should have said "most christians who study revelations".

reply to post by SimonPeter

The Father Tells Jesus when to Reap

Jesus is sitting in the clouds and the Angel tells Jesus with the sound of a Trump when the Father gives the word .

If it was Jesus on the clouds.... then Jesus would have heard directly from the Father.

John would have seen the son of man reaping without the angel telling what to do. Instead the son of man, and another angel both receive instructions from other angels.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n
[more Chew on this . Revelations Chapter 14 verse14 . When do you see one like the Son of Man in the clouds with a golden crown on his head with a sharp sickle . Revelations 14 is a parallel of parts of Revelations 7 .
Matthew 24 verse 30 is speaking directly of the Son of God coming in the Clouds with Great Power and Great Glory.
When have you ever heard of an angel having Great Glory .
And He shall send HIS angels means the Lord Jesus .

reply to post by SimonPeter

The end times are the times that haven't happened yet or we would not here talking about it now .

I understand that in your mind there is this thing called the "end times" but where does it come from? Is it in the Bible?

Question #1. Do you believe God will destroy the earth with fire ?

There is something like that in 2 Peter but I doubt that there is any evidence that Peter actually wrote it, so it would be in my opinion something not to be taken seriously as a description of something that could literally happen. That quote in 2 Peter is not about just the earth but basically the entire universe, burning up, so what in the world is he talking about? Probably a concept of the thing he mentions, the "day of the Lord", which is the end of everything, meaning time itself ends and all existence ceases to exist and some people will pass judgment and enter into some sort of other existence where nothing bad can ever happen. I doubt he has any details in mind and is just parroting the view a lot of Jews had back at that time about Judgment Day. The real point he was making was not the particulars of a current urban mythology, but the idea that it is important to keep yourself right with God in case you do find yourself in that sort of situation.
He also does not try to describe a soon expected end, but explains how it could be long off, way past the time that you would be around to worry about if it is going to hurry up for you.

Question #2 Do you believe Jesus when he said he would come back in the Clouds to reap the harvest?

I don't think Jesus said that, but what you are describing is a construct in your own imagination made by combining different sections of verses to come out saying that.

Question #3 Do you believe we will remain on earth to live out eternity ?

Who do you mean by "we"? Not necessarily Earth proper, since if we were in an "eternal life" mode, I would imagine we would be free to travel to other planets. What I think is that the universe was made in a certain way, a very long time ago and that what is described in Genesis 1 & 2 is something that happened later and on a local level, to make this planet inhabitable for humans. I don't think that the planet or the universe was ever "perfect". Obviously it was not, and it was only inside the Garden, and was less good once outside that small area. I think the Universe is in a not perfect state, and not just this planet, and it is just one of those things which is something that has to be survived until it is perfect. We have to become perfect ourselves before the universe becomes perfect.

Question #4 . Do you believe that the 144000 Virgin Jewish Men are the only one to be taken to heaven ?

No, that is just symbolic imagery to explain a concept otherwise a little difficult to grasp, so is a mental visual aid to encourage people to live right.

Question # 5 Do you believe Jesus was born of a virgin , Son of God, died on the cross , rose on the 3rd day and ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God ?

That part is actual history and explained to be understood that way, in a way that things like Revelation is not, and rather is described as pictures to be symbolic of bigger concepts.

I will answer your questions . Will you answer mine ?

Explain to me how what you believe comes from the Bible and not a bunch of happy-talk propaganda.

reply to post by ahnggk

Matthew 24:22
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

That is one version, probably the NIV, where most versions translate it as "none would be saved".
The war, and events inside Jerusalem during the siege were of such a magnitude that in the thinking of the people in that time, the suffering and pain and anguish of the people itself could trigger a chain of events as a reaction to what becomes like a real thing that is too horrible to be allowed to exist. As weird as it may seem to us today, that was what they thought. It is like the idea that forced a lot of "mercy" killing. If you had ever seen the movie "Gone with the Wind" you should recall a scene where the medical personnel were attempting to care for the wounded from a great battle, and the camera draws back to show the huge number of men writhing in pain, and the impossibility of treating them properly. So back in 70 AD, it seemed right to them to just kill everyone to stop the suffering that could literally bring down heaven, and destroy the entire world. Like I said, it seems crazy to us today, but people then really believed that.

Because there are so many things we don't understand about nature. We don't know about the Earth . . .

I asked you not to give a lecture on catastrophes. My suggestion to you is to do some actual study on the Bible and less repeating of garbage you hear on YouTube videos.
And I don't mean stupid cult philosophy books, either. That stuff is not based on actual understanding of the Bible but how much people can imagine in their own weird thoughts. There is plenty of good books out there written by highly accredited university professors who really know what they are talking about, and you should read that, rather than hacks selling sensationalistic books. In particular, I would recommend Mark, a commentary by Adella Yarbro Collins.

reply to post by SimonPeter

more Chew on this . Revelations Chapter 14 verse14 . When do you see one like the Son of Man in the clouds with a golden crown on his head with a sharp sickle . Revelations 14 is a parallel of parts of Revelations 7 .
Matthew 24 verse 30 is speaking directly of the Son of God coming in the Clouds with Great Power and Great Glory.
When have you ever heard of an angel having Great Glory .
And He shall send HIS angels means the Lord Jesus .

I understand Jesus spoke of the son of man appearing in the sky in Matthew 24:30-31


"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matthew 24:30-31


If the son of man in Revelations 14:14 is indeed Jesus, why does an angel pass him the message from the Father? I thought Jesus receives messages from God directly.

Also, in revelations 14, another angel is instructed to reap... meaning the son of man is on par with the angel. i.e - Both the son of man and the angel are prompted by angels to do their task.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
If the son of man in Revelations 14:14 is indeed Jesus, why does an angel pass him the message from the Father? I thought Jesus receives messages from God directly.

Yes he does, but I've already pointed out the answer to that one.
Jesus does not need to be given these instructions, but the messsage has to be given publicly so that we, the readers, can hear it and know what's going on.
In the same way, at the beginning of ch7, the four angels are instructed to hold back the destructive winds. They don't need to be given this instruction, because they're doing it already, but we need to hear it. It's all for John;s benefit and ours.

You ae making the mistake of taking this episode as a literal event.
It is not a literal event. It is a dramatised metaphor, relating to the same coming judgement that is depicted in other ways in other parts of Revelation, like the white horseman and the battle in ch19.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Jesus does not need to be given these instructions, but the messsage has to be given publicly so that we, the readers, can hear it and know what's going on.

Like I told you earlier, your argument of " its so we, the readers, can hear it and know what's going on" doesn't really hold because most of the book of revelations is written in cryptic language and symbols and no one really knows whats going on.

Take the angel out of the picture, and John would have still seen the son of man reap the earth. In fact, the same argument can be used to say "we hear the angel speaking, so we could know that the son of man was only performing his role as a servant of God".

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Like I told you earlier, your argument of " its so we, the readers, can hear it and know what's going on" doesn't really hold because most of the book of revelations is written in cryptic language and symbols and no one really knows whats going on.

It was not written in a code language that nobody was meant to understand. That would have been pointless.
It was written in metaphorical language that people were meant to understand, so that it would benefit the people of John's own time, not just esoteric code-breakers.
That is the point. Revelation, like the rest of the Bible, is an act of communication, so people are meant to get meaning out of it
Shakespeare is a good analogy. People nowadays find him difficult to understand, but it was easy enough for the people of his own time. It;s just a question of patiently familiarising ourselves with the language of metaphor.
therefore my argument does hold.

Take the angel out of the picture, and John would have still seen the son of man reap the earth. In fact, the same argument can be used to say "we hear the angel speaking, so we could know that the son of man was only performing his role as a servant of God".

Fine. There's no reason at all why we shouldn't say that.
It's the same point. Everything that is said is being said for the benefit of the audience (John and ourselves).

This thread makes an issue out of nothing.
Since this is not a literal event but simply a dramatised metaphor, it really doesn't matter who the "son of man" is supposed to be.
The message being presented is that some kind of "harvest" is coming, of the kind predicated in Joel ch3, which is the origin of these images.
That is all we need to know.