The son of man on the cloud in Revelations 14:14?

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
-Revelations 14:14-16



Lets break it down..
1. A "son of man" appears.
2. An angel appears.
3. The angel instructs the son of man to do something.
4. The son of man does as he is told.

Here's the interesting part...
1. Most Christians interpret the son of man on the cloud to be Jesus himself.
If it was Jesus, then don't Christians(especially those who believe Jesus is God) find it strange that an angel is telling Jesus what to do?


Also note that immediately after, we read about a second angel instructing a third angel with a sickle to make a harvest of the "grapes" (symbolic of souls, I guess). Both the son of man and the third angel were being instructed to make a harvest.



2. Another thing I'd like to point out, since revelations was written after Jesus walked the earth, so why didn't the writer just mention the name "Jesus Christ" instead of "son of man"?

Discuss.

I believe that "son of man" is referring the "reapers" likeness to just being similar to humans. I recall the bible and book of Enoch using the term "son of man" a lot when referring to the corrupted bloodline of man into Nephilim by the fallen angels. Jesus is more accurately said to be the "son of God", me personally not really ever remembering him being called the son of man. That would be pretty inaccurate in my opinion. But I did like this post's topic even though I don't comment very often, I thought I'd give that 2 cents!

My guess is the Angel is one of high rank, and the reaper being a non-sentiant humanoid being entirely under that angels control. Or the "reapers" are "tools", if you will, invoked by God when needed for their individual style of retribution.

reply to post by Arrestme

Jesus is more accurately said to be the "son of God", me personally not really ever remembering him being called the son of man. That would be pretty inaccurate in my opinion. But I did like this post's topic even though I don't comment very often, I thought I'd give that 2 cents!

Jesus has the title "son of God" and is also referred to as "the son of man".
The term "son of man" simply means a 'human being' ... the term is also used for others in the bible, example - Ezekiel was called son of man.

However, the "son of man" taking the angels instructions in revelations 14:14 is seen as Jesus by most Christians... which is weird considering they see Jesus as being higher than the angels. Those particular verses appear in a part of revelations, where we see 2 angels with authority... the first angel instructs this son of man and the second angel instructs another angel to go out.

I see 2 possibilities...
a)Either the "son of man" in Revelations 14:14 is not Jesus...

OR

b) The "son of man" is Jesus, but he is not divine. It cant be because he, like the angel with the sickle is taking instructions from an angel.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Angels are only messengers (which is what the Greek word means).
The simplest answer, if you want to press the point, is that he's passing on a message from the Father.
If you receive instructions in a letter, the instructions are coming from the sender of the letter, not from the postman who delivers it.

Why does the Father not tell him directly, you may ask?
Because the object of the exercise is that we should hear what is being said.
As in ch7 vv1-3 of the same book, the spoken command is really for our benefit, not for the recipient's benefit, so that we know what''s going on. It's a kind of drama.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Here's the interesting part...
1. Most Christians interpret the son of man on the cloud to be Jesus himself.
If it was Jesus, then don't Christians(especially those who believe Jesus is God) find it strange that an angel is telling Jesus what to do?

edit on 30-9-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

The Angel there is simply functioning as a lookout as on a ship. He spots an iceberg and tells the captain to steer hard to port, something like that. Although he tells the captain what to do in that instance, he is still subordinate to the captain..

Anyway, Revelations 14:14 is describing an intergalactic event.

The white cloud represents the galactic center and sickle being the spiral arms - the Milky Way is a spiral galaxy by the way. Stars are often represented by Angels

We are currently within the Orion Spiral Arm - the 'sickle'. There's a cycle of the 'sickle' passing through Earth (Solar System) every 100 million years.

This means that Earth through it's passage through the spiral arm of our galaxy, the 'sickle' will cause millions, even billions in death due to its effect, we might see later. Note, we are inside the 'sickle' now.

Secular science have managed to link spiral arm crossings (passing of the 'sickle') to cause mass extinctions every 100 millions years.

So don't expect to see UFOs. UFOs are from the devil. God works through nature, extending all the way to the scale of galaxies.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Why does the Father not tell him directly, you may ask? Because the object of the exercise is that we should hear what is being said. As in ch7 vv1-3 of the same book, the spoken command is really for our benefit, not for the recipient's benefit, so that we know what''s going on. It's a kind of drama.

The writer of revelations simply wrote down whatever he saw. He wasn't authoring a novel where he'd have to frame his sentences in such a way that readers aren't confused.

From what we see in the sequence of Johns visions, the "son of man" and the other angel with a sickle were doing as they were told. i.e - make the harvest. The angel with the sickle seems to have the same task as the son of man. Both received instructions from God, relayed by the angels. In fact, the angels are doing a lot of things in revelations and John simply recorded whatever he saw them do. And in this case, he saw angels instruct the son of man and the other angel to make the harvest.

Then there are people who think that the Jesus is God himself. So, if Jesus is the son of man in rev 14:14, why would an angel be telling God what to do?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


It doesn't say the Son of Man, it says one like a son of man. Ezekiel was also called a son of man. Jesus is in the temple in heaven sitting on his throne from which his spirit proceeds into us.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
The writer of revelations simply wrote down whatever he saw. He wasn't authoring a novel where he'd have to frame his sentences in such a way that readers aren't confused.

OK, so God is the one authoring the "educational drama" and John just reports it.
When you watch a play likeHamlet, do you try to read a lot of meaning into the fact that characters speak aloud when they're thinking, or do you not recognise the practical reason for this (the audience needs to share their thoughts)?

. So, if Jesus is the son of man in rev 14:14, why would an angel be telling God what to do?

I've already answered this one.
He's not "telling him what to do", just passing on a message.
If you receive a letter of instructions from a superior, do you think that means the postman is "telling you what to do"?
These two little episodes at the end of ch14 are just a dramatisation of Joel ch3 v13. They're taking the metaphor that Joel uses- that the coming judgement is a kind of harvesting- and putting it into dramatic form.
The object of the exercise is to express this metaphor. The status of the participants is really beside the point, which is why nit-picking serves no purpose.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

It doesn't say the Son of Man, it says one like a son of man. Ezekiel was also called a son of man

And "son of man" simply means a human being. John saw someone who looked like a human being on the cloud.
And yes, I pointed out that Ezekiel was also called a son of man in the third post on this thread.

So, are you saying the "son of man" on the cloud was not Jesus?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
-Revelations 14:14-16


Lets break it down..
1. A "son of man" appears.
2. An angel appears.
3. The angel instructs the son of man to do something.
4. The son of man does as he is told.

Here's the interesting part...
1. Most Christians interpret the son of man on the cloud to be Jesus himself.
If it was Jesus, then don't Christians(especially those who believe Jesus is God) find it strange that an angel is telling Jesus what to do?


Also note that immediately after, we read about a second angel instructing a third angel with a sickle to make a harvest of the "grapes" (symbolic of souls, I guess). Both the son of man and the third angel were being instructed to make a harvest.



2. Another thing I'd like to point out, since revelations was written after Jesus walked the earth, so why didn't the writer just mention the name "Jesus Christ" instead of "son of man"?

Discuss.

edit on 30-9-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Clouds are progeny of evil spirits. ENOCH: "9The spirits of the giants shall be like clouds, (25) which shall oppress, corrupt, fall, content, and bruise upon earth."

(25) The Greek word for "clouds" here, nephelas, may disguise a more ancient reading, Napheleim (Nephilim).

Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will come in the clouds. Read my thread on AMNION and how this relates to clouds of confusion--or amnesia--, which is the wool pulled over the sheep's eyes while their sin is cut away. The sin is then made white as snow and returned as a robe in Revelation. Between the time of sheering and returning the wool, the Shepherd leads the flock through the tribulation. The clouds represent our confusion and lack of fact. Faith leads us from point A to Z.

Humpty Dumpty has Amnesia

AMNION THREAD

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

It doesn't say the Son of Man, it says one like a son of man. Ezekiel was also called a son of man

And "son of man" simply means a human being. John saw someone who looked like a human being on the cloud.
And yes, I pointed out that Ezekiel was also called a son of man in the third post on this thread.

So, are you saying the "son of man" on the cloud was not Jesus?

I'm saying it didn't say The Son of Man, but A son of man. There's no other description, like other passages spoken about Jesus have. Even angels look like humans, go read Genesis, everytime angels appeared they looked like men, even when the Almighty appeared to Abraham before he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah he appeared as a man.

If you read in context, Jesus is standing on Mount Zion when this all goes down, so how is he on a cloud? Simple, because that aint Jesus. You're trying to make it look like Jesus is taking orders to make him not look like God.

reply to post by DISRAELI

OK, so God is the one authoring the "educational drama" and John just reports it.
When you watch a play likeHamlet, do you try to read a lot of meaning into the fact that characters speak aloud when they're thinking, or do you not recognise the practical reason for this (the audience needs to share their thoughts)?

A play is scripted with the intent to communicate a story to the audience.
The book of revelations is a record of whatever John saw in his visions.

Now, if the book of revelations is meant to be an "educational drama", then there wouldn't be any need for the cryptic language and symbolism, it would get to the point and tell us who/what the beasts / whore / abomination etc. are.

Your earlier statement about the spoken command being for our benefit and so that we know what''s going on doesn't really work because most of the revelations are written in cryptic language and symbols.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

I'm saying it didn't say The Son of Man, but A son of man.

Yeah, I got that. Revelations 14:14 features A son of man.
Since thats the verse in question... I just refer to him as the son of man in context to that particular verse.

Simple, because that aint Jesus. You're trying to make it look like Jesus is taking orders to make him not look like God.

Oh please. all I'm doing is go by the text in the bible.

Secondly, there are people who teach that son of man on the cloud in revelation 14:14 IS JESUS.

www.discoverrevelation.com...
www.bibleexplained.com...
www.tedmontgomery.com...

And then there are people who say it isn't Jesus

www.revelationcommentary.org...

This one surprisingly uses the same angel argument to say it isn't Jesus.

However, this is not Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus would hardly need an angelic exhortation to begin the earthly harvest (Rev 14:15).

.....


So, which groups right?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
A play is scripted with the intent to communicate a story to the audience.
The book of revelations is a record of whatever John saw in his visions.

Yes, and what John saw in his visions was scripted by God with the intent of communicating a story to John's readership.
I have a series of threads demonstrating that the metaphors of Revelation are not all that difficult to unravel. The basic message was understandable enough to the people of John's time.
The purpose of the book is not to provide a detailed future history, but to provide encouragement to the church in time of crisis.,


.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Oh please. all I'm doing is go by the text in the bible.

Secondly, there are people who teach that son of man in revelation 14:14 is Jesus.

No what you're doing and the source you quoted is doing is reading more into what is really there. As i said before taken in proper context Jesus is standing on Mt. Zion with the 144k. He is the Lamb.

Revelation 14:1-5

1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

You quote 14-16, but right here in the very first verse Jesus is standing on Mt. Zion, all this other stuff is going on at that same time. The 144k are the firstfruits, the first reaping of the harvest. These are the redeemed from Israel, whom the 12 tribes are reassembled from.

Jesus with a sickle? Not seein it. Sounds like the angel of death to me, there to harvest souls.

Also, it was Jesus himself who called himself "Son of man" when the High Priest asked if he was the Son of God...

Matthew 26:63-64

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Interesting about the cloud part in that!

Originally posted by new_here
Jesus with a sickle? Not seein it. Sounds like the angel of death to me, there to harvest souls.

Also, it was Jesus himself who called himself "Son of man" when the High Priest asked if he was the Son of God...

Matthew 26:63-64

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Interesting about the cloud part in that!

Clouds can have a allegorical meaning, usually it refers to the heavenly host of angels. "Coming in the clouds of heaven" = coming with his heavenly armies which is exactly what happens in Revelation.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

You quote 14-16, but right here in the very first verse Jesus is standing on Mt. Zion, all this other stuff is going on at that same time. The 144k are the firstfruits, the first reaping of the harvest.

Again, I'm not suggesting that Jesus is the son of man in the cloud.
Just that many christians understand him to be Jesus.... (See the links I provided earlier)
and yet they all miss the fact that an angel tells him what to do next.

All, I've learned is that Christians are divided on this. Some say it is Jesus, some say it isn't.

Also, do you believe revelations was written in some sort of a chronological order? If so, then the first reaping doesn't take place until later. If the revelations were NOT in chronological order, then maybe John had compiled a series of seperate visions.

reply to post by DISRAELI

The purpose of the book is not to provide a detailed future history, but to provide encouragement to the church in time of crisis.,

Fair enough, but then your earlier statement about how it was all a play-like method to get users to understand things doesn't hold. If most of the book is cryptic....and I've learned that not even christians agree on many parts.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

A play is scripted with the intent to communicate a story to the audience.
The book of revelations is a record of whatever John saw in his visions.

Yup.

John may have been given a peek into the future or into celestial bodies. It could be symbolic as in visions or an actual thing but he just can't find words to describe what he's seeing.

Just imagine what he would have said if you showed him a video of the M1 Abrams tank in action.

I believe the accounts of Revelations 14 is a great calamity for the "vine of the Earth" (verse 19) which is none other than us and all our works!

John may have been given a fast-forward peek of the Earth from space, witnessing the Earth change from lush green, to gradual change through city building and industrialization. All man-mad activity will indeed resemble a grape vine spreading gradually!

Connecting that to the 'sickle', it is now concluded that our galaxy is a barred spiral galaxy. If look it up 'barred spiral galaxy' in google images, you will see a very close resemblance to a sickle!

According to secular science there is between 40 to 140 million interval between major extinctions and is closely associated with passing one of our galaxy's spiral arms which is sickle shaped. We can probably expect an extinction any time now.

Since we would expect major extinctions to be caused by catastrophes of Biblical proportions, we can conclude not only a major portion of human population will be wiped out, but all our works as well, cities, technology, etc - the 'vine of the Earth', will all be destroyed.