How To Make Things Go Horribly Horribly Wrong ( What I Learned This Week )

reply to post by Hefficide


You shouldn't have to apologize for others stupidity.

The world is full of idiots, it's only natural that many will turn up here.

...Yes, those that didn't get your thread are idiots, might be rude but it's true.

reply to post by Hefficide


Like I told you before Heff, I have your back.

I have looked over things carefully and know as a fact, you have not committed any wrong in said thread, nor have you broken any T+C to my knowledge.

If it even matters, and even if it doesn't, I will vouch for your integrity.

I am actually blown away at the lack of reading comprehension skills and the malice that some individuals exhibit, and I am glad that things progressed as they did. The truth reveals itself, after all.

Originally posted by WhisperingWinds
reply to post by NoRegretsEver

 

I know that you dont need anyone to stand on your behalf, but come on guys, when will we see through the lies, innuendo, and shameful games that are played?

Good point.

I've felt that certain mods play games and use their influence and manipulate to tag certain posts as off topic, while other remain that are just as "off topic".

It seems as if you challenge certain mods..their memory is long, and it comes back to bite you with the power they have.

Lets face it, some mods have their favorites , and it definitely shows.

We see through the favoritism, and the games as well.

I will never forget a poster here called 'Undercover Alien'. He got banned and when I asked him about it on Youtube, he simply said he had upset a certain moderator and started getting singled out, post removals, post bans etc. I believe his account was eventually reinstated but by that point he had had it with ATS.

I have never had any problems with the mods here but I can see what you're saying.

Other than that, I still love ATS and the staff, I just keep my head down.

Originally posted by Wide-Eyes
I just keep my head down.

There is no reason to keep one's head down, if one follows 'procedure'.
By making an account here we agreed to an actual legal contract with the owners of this website.

We agreed to follow said posted rules available to everyone, including the implied consent to all other legal contracts that apply to ourselves and to honor the website owners contractual obligations so as to prevent creating unnecessary issues for any parties.

Additionally, the ownership here at ATS reserve their rights to exercise discretion, as per the legal notice we have been provided with by their presentations of 'the Terms and Conditions'.

Now, with this stated, I will add my opinion on the matter as a long time member with no personal connections to anyone here, nor any other type of organized association (aside of my membership status alone):

The administration of this website has proven to me over these last few years that they are actually good people in my assessment. My judgement is sound, and I recognize that they are very cool people if you approach them as a cool person yourself.

I have only suffered minor issues as a result of various minor infractions, and this is acceptable as I am following a code of conduct I myself agreed to. I respect this decision and I will uphold my end of this contract.

My goal here at ATS is to share my own discoveries, while learning of the discoveries of the other members in respect to the wide array of topics covered here. The administration here at ATS has shown me exceptional respect and kindness as a result of my undertakings and they have facilitated an environment which I cherish as an educational and information inundated atmosphere where all points of view are applauded while within T+C.

There are no provisions within the T+C that prevent us from actually discussing our own individual points of view and arguing them in a proper debate format whereby the facts speak for themselves and should be apparent to anyone with basic reading comprehension abilities and a little patience.

You have nothing to fear at all my friend, if you agree with even the most basic conditions of civilized conduct.

There are no provisions within the T+C that prevent us from actually discussing our own individual points of view and arguing them in a proper debate format

reply to post by muzzleflash

one question where are we limited to do what you say above? is there one special place? Or are we able to do that in a thread ? just looking for some clarity from someone who seems to have the experience and knows. I have probably just broken T & C as this doesn't really directly fit with the op. So if I have Sorry! the line is thin ...

Originally posted by ancientthunder

There are no provisions within the T+C that prevent us from actually discussing our own individual points of view and arguing them in a proper debate format

reply to post by muzzleflash

 

one question where are we limited to do what you say above? is there one special place? Or are we able to do that in a thread ? just looking for some clarity from someone who seems to have the experience and knows. I have probably just broken T & C as this doesn't really directly fit with the op. So if I have Sorry! the line is thin ...

It appears we are only limited by the agreement we made, which entails the discretion of the ownership of the website. Special places have been designated by the organization of various forums, etc.

One important rule (among many) that lies entirely upon the discretion of the ownership, is the theory of "On Topic Discussion", which was actually created to prevent derailment of said topic.

We are entirely within the bounds of a topic if the information we present, question, or discuss, is pertinent to the outlying scope of the topic itself.

For example, the discussion of what types of agreements we adhere to pertains to this particular thread topic directly and indirectly, as conduct is the ultimate foundation of the problems that the OP, Heff, has stated. He has been wronged by misconduct not of his own doing, as others have made seemingly unfounded accusations against him personally to smear his character in attempt to dishonor his personal opinions and philosophies through improper procedure.

The T+C protect him, just as they protect any of us, and as it protects the ownership of the website from unreasonable liability which is explicitly presented through notification we all have open access to.

There are many topics that are believed to be off-limits, however the limits have been defined within what appears are completely reasonable borders. Some topics such as the 'War on Drugs', are extremely difficult to handle as a result of all of the contracts we have implied consent or directly assented to, including common law and statutory laws (which are available for everyone to read).

If one exercises eloquence, wit, strategic positioning, and applies the proper terminology and avoids breaking any aspect of the T+C, the ATS administration have proven to me that they will not dishonor such and instead would uphold and honor it, as it would stand as testament to the type of civilized conduct and discourse that is expected and requested of everyone party to the topic.

Note, that the moderation and administration here reserves the right to even remove my posts here, or anywhere, and I agree to this condition, and it can be based entirely on their opinion. However, I have never seen or witnessed such conduct on their behalf, and I will vouch they apply wisdom and stick to procedure as close as possible. But like all of us, they have limits, pushing, harassing, insulting, or intimidating them will win no points, and I wouldn't be surprised or offended to find such a uncivilized person banned from posting as a result.

The bar must be raised yet again, as ignorance is explicitly denied in these quarters.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Yes, the mods have always been very fair with me and when I have received punishments, I have always felt they were justified and had a little chat with the mod and departed on good terms. Like I said, I love this site. When I said I keep my head down, I mean try not to argue with trolls because it can be a slippery slope.

I just try to respect other members and generally throw my 2pence in here and there.

reply to post by Hefficide

Suddenly people were quoting me as having called myself a "master manipulator" - which I did not say

Where would they get such a notion,

Part of those accusations are very much true. I have been manipulating you, good citizens of ATS. I have been doing so willfully, deliberately, and with an agenda. I have been using decades of very specific training and research to achieve my goals in this endeavor and have been largely successful in my labors. I am guilty as charged. I am a manipulator.

Heck, even my confession to manipulating is, quite literally, a manipulation in and of itself. I can, at will, use it to create any number of narratives and to illicit any number of predictable and controllable responses. Any expert will tell you that sympathy is one of the most powerful tools of manipulation that exist. It can be used quite effectively and powerfully to alter perception and opinion almost instantly. For example:

But I have an edge on most of them. I'm good at it. I have that natural gift... the ability to connect and to create trust and empathy with just a smile or with eye contact.

This is how I learned my skills – and how I have gained my expertise. By being a people person. And, in past years. By using it to be predatory and opportunistic. Maybe these are just personal, lesser manipulations as I work on my larger manipulations. One could fry a few brain cells keeping track.

Are you afraid yet? Are you beginning to question it all yet? Good. Now as to whether or not you should fear me. I leave that up to you.

And maybe offer a word of thanks to the cranky old ATS moderator who clued you in on a few of the tricks of the trade.

From beginning to end you are suggesting that you are a master manipulator. But you say it was all a role you played in order to prove a point.

What point does it prove then?

It only proves that all the people who "get" your point have been manipulated by you. If this isn't the case, then how does the thread prove your point?

Why did the thread revolve around accusations in the first place, if the point was only to show that manipulation exists?

A person who began a dialougue with the words “I am writing these words to manipulate you. I tell you this up front and with no shame...” Just showed you in a very simple, and uncomplicated manner, how easy it is to do. I did this as a concerned and caring member of your community.

So what was the indicator that it worked and that it was easy. How did you show us?


Basically you admit there were accusations against you, then you actually admit you are a master manipulator, only to twist it into being just a role you played in order to prove your point that manipulation happens, discrediting the accusations in the process, and for the future.

Yet the accusations made you write the thread, and this one.

It was not the other way around.

reply to post by Hefficide


Well, I enjoyed reading that particular thread. I don't feel like you owe anyone an apology. There are always going to be people that just WANT to find something to grumble about.

I find your threads informative and witty. There are going to be some that just don't "get" you. And no matter WHAT the topic there are always going to be self-righteous zealots who will spout their pent up rage at anyone who gives them the slightest little opening.

Just remember that this too shall pass. Hold your head high and keep doing what you do.

Not sure you should be apologising Heff.

I didn't read your thread as it wasn't something (title wise) that interested me but if it was only closed due to responses you received rather than your own conduct in the thread, then you shouldn't be apologising.

reply to post by littled16

There are going to be some that just don't "get" you.

See. Everyone that sees the OP for what he is now, doesn't get it and OP is safe.

Exactly like planned.

Exaxctly like someone pointed out in the previous thread.

Based on that thread, every new accusation of manipulation is discredited, and people just ignore the fact that the accusations were already there before the thread was written, and were the reason the thread was written in the first place.

It's a complete mindfrick, as usual.

Any expert will tell you that sympathy is one of the most powerful tools of manipulation that exist.

Indeed. Anyone can see you milked that one dry.

reply to post by blupblup


If you didn't read it, you shouldn't even be talking.

Originally posted by DermotMcDerp
reply to post by blupblup

 

If you didn't read it, you shouldn't even be talking.

If I didn't address you, not really sure you should be responding to me.


I was telling the OP that unless he/she broke the T&C of the website or directly insulted or attacked anyone, then they shouldn't be apologising... what the **** that has to do with you I'm not sure?

reply to post by blupblup


If you didn't read the thread you are in no position to judge if his apology was warranted or not.

It's a really simple concept.

Originally posted by DermotMcDerp
reply to post by blupblup

 

If you didn't read the thread you are in no position to judge if his apology was warranted or not.

It's a really simple concept.

No, what's a really simple concept is me saying that if the OP broke none of the T&C then there is no reason to apologise.

Most of the replies I've seen in this thread are saying that the OP has nothing to apologise for and that the thread was great... so far, that's the consensus.


Anyway, we're just going round in circles, I was merely lending my support to a long standing member (to whom I have never spoken and do not know) who seems to be apologising for the fact that people misinterpreted or didn't "get" their thread.

The OP obviously feels bad so why not just accept this apology and move on? (this applies to anyone, not just you)

reply to post by blupblup

No, what's a really simple concept is me saying that if the OP broke none of the T&C then there is no reason to apologise.

Instead of contributing an opinion based on something you admittedly don't even know yourself, you could've read up and made an actual substantial statement.

You are basically saying, "if it is true what others are saying, you don't need to apologize".

It has no value, why not look at it yourself if you want to say something substantial?

The OP obviously feels bad so why not just accept this apology and move on? (this applies to anyone, not just you)

Because he is still not sincere.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Anyway, check you out, you're like an ATS lawyer!! haha

Wow, I had no idea that topic imploded like that. I simply popped in, shared my opinion on it, and left. I never knew all that drama was ensuing.

I thought the topic was self-explanatory and well-intentioned. While I don't agree personally that we all manipulate (though I suspect where we differ on that may be purely semantic, i.e. I acknowledge that everyone influences, wittingly or unwittingly; I just don't believe that everyone necessarily sets out to achieve a specific outcome other than expressing themselves and their feelings or thoughts necessarily,) I never viewed your words as particularly conceited or malevolent.

I suspect most regular ATS users are aware of things like cognitive dissonance and ego-driven conflict propensity enough that they didn't need it pointed out, but there are certainly those who aren't, and raising awareness of it is in keeping with ATS' credo: Deny Ignorance. Bringing it up in and of itself, I feel, was a positive thing. To be perfectly honest, I actually think we're even more unknowingly dictated to by the workings of our consciousness and the world around us than even you suggested in the topic. I often doubt we even have free will at all and that much of what we call volition is illusory. Including how some people "choose" to manipulate one another. But that's an entirely different discussion.

I understand people's feelings and frustrations with regard to the wording of the topic. And, of course, if people believe you are now being disingenuous as well - as is their prerogative, and I respect their opinions - they will naturally feel even more put out as a result. I suppose it's always possible that I'm being naive or gullible, and that they're correct. But since I'm not terribly concerned either way, it's not like I'm losing anything if I choose to assume the best rather than the worst about someone.

Peace.

Originally posted by DermotMcDerp
reply to post by littled16

 

There are going to be some that just don't "get" you.

See. Everyone that sees the OP for what he is now, doesn't get it and OP is safe.

Exactly like planned.

Exaxctly like someone pointed out in the previous thread.

Based on that thread, every new accusation of manipulation is discredited, and people just ignore the fact that the accusations were already there before the thread was written, and were the reason the thread was written in the first place.

It's a complete mindfrick, as usual.

Any expert will tell you that sympathy is one of the most powerful tools of manipulation that exist.

Indeed. Anyone can see you milked that one dry.

edit on 24-9-2012 by DermotMcDerp because: (no reason given)

Is your only purpose in life to try to rile people up? You don't know me at all, and yet you think you know something about me as it is your opinion that I 'milked that one dry".

It is my opinion that right now YOU are the one who is trying to manipulate. Sympathy is indeed a powerful tool for manipulation, but then again eliciting an emotional response of any kind is also a powerful tool in manipulation. In my opinion you are trying to induce an emotional response from me in the way of anger. That sir/madam is classic manipulation.

You sir/madam are indeed the pot calling the kettle black. You have provided evidence to the truth of Heff's original thread.

reply to post by AceWombat04

(though I suspect where we differ on that may be purely semantic, i.e. I acknowledge that everyone influences, wittingly or unwittingly; I just don't believe that everyone necessarily sets out to achieve a specific outcome other than expressing themselves and their feelings or thoughts necessarily,

This semantics confusion was instigated on purpose, to fade the lines between the two different types.

The accusations were about the bad type, yet it was twisted into being about the kind of manipulation we are all guilty of in some way.

At least you were able to see the distinction through the manipulation. That's more than most were able to.