How To Make Things Go Horribly Horribly Wrong ( What I Learned This Week )

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posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by littled16
 





Is your only purpose in life to try to rile people up? You don't know me at all, and yet you think you know something about me as it is your opinion that I 'milked that one dry".


Facepalm....

I did reply to you, but that was obviously a reply to Heff's qoute. Maybe a bit confusing, my bad.

Anyways it wasn't aimed at you.




It is my opinion that right now YOU are the one who is trying to manipulate.


How can you call this manipulation when it is completely clear what my goal is. I am completely honest and upfront.

I base everything I say on the OP's own words.

I am not taking on a role like the OP claims he did.

I am not trying to get sympathy, I get quite the opposite actually.

I don't make confusing U turns like the OP makes.

I am not trying to muddy the waters like the OP did.

I can go on.
edit on 24-9-2012 by DermotMcDerp because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by loam
reply to post by Hefficide
 



Originally posted by Hefficide
So this is my mea culpa. My request for forgiveness. I was obviously misunderstood and the fault is entirely mine. I tried to use provocative words as a means of opening a dialogue and that was a decisively horrible decision on my behalf.

So, ATS, for those of you who were offended, my deepest apologies and my earnest assurances that I never meant to offend or insult. I just wanted to start a conversation.



I don't think you should apologize for the ignorant reaction of others. THEY are what's broken. Not you or your thread.


On a personal note, I'm glad you post in the manner you do. In fact, I like it when the MODS and ADMIN do so.

THAT has not been the case for a very long time and it's nice to see some of the brightest minds back in the game on these boards.


edit on 23-9-2012 by loam because: (no reason given)


Exactly this.




posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 09:21 AM
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Due to decorum I will make this entry:


Internet trolls, also known as “paid posters” or “paid bloggers,” are increasingly being employed by private corporations as well, often for marketing purposes. In fact, it is a rapidly growing industry.

Trolls use a wide variety of strategies, some of which are unique to the internet, here are just a few:

1) Make outrageous comments designed to distract or frustrate: An Alinsky tactic used to make people emotional, although less effective because of the impersonal nature of the web.

2) Pose as a supporter of the truth, then make comments that discredit the movement: We have seen this even on our own forums — trolls pose as supporters of the Liberty Movement, then post long, incoherent diatribes so as to appear either racist or insane. Here is a live example of this tactic in use on Yahoo! Answers.

The key to this tactic is to make references to common Liberty Movement arguments while at the same time babbling nonsense, so as to make those otherwise valid arguments seem ludicrous by association.

In extreme cases, these “Trojan Horse Trolls” have been known to make posts which incite violence — a technique obviously intended to solidify the false assertions of the notorious MIAC report and other ADL/SPLC publications which purport that constitutionalists should be feared as potential domestic terrorists.

3) Dominate Discussions: Trolls often interject themselves into productive web discussions in order to throw them off course and frustrate the people involved.

4) Prewritten Responses: Many trolls are supplied with a list or database with pre-planned talking points designed as generalized and deceptive responses to honest arguments. 9/11 “debunker” trolls are notorious for this.

5) False Association: This works hand in hand with item #2, by invoking the stereotypes established by the “Trojan Horse Troll.”

For example: calling those against the Federal Reserve “conspiracy theorists” or “lunatics”. Deliberately associating anti-globalist movements with big foot or alien enthusiasts, because of the inherent negative connotations. Using false associations to provoke biases and dissuade people from examining the evidence objectively.

6) False Moderation: Pretending to be the “voice of reason” in an argument with obvious and defined sides in an attempt to move people away from what is clearly true into a “grey area” where the truth becomes “relative.”

7) Straw Man Arguments: A very common technique. The troll will accuse his opposition of subscribing to a certain point of view, even if he does not, and then attacks that point of view. Or, the troll will put words in the mouth of his opposition, and then rebut those specific words. For example: “9/11 truthers say that no planes hit the WTC towers, and that it was all just computer animation. What are they, crazy?”


Source

The section in the link about Alinksy tactics is also most enlightening.

Oh damn... someone turned a light on in here.


~Heff
edit on 9/24/12 by Hefficide because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 





I am actually blown away at the lack of reading comprehension skills and the malice that some individuals exhibit, and I am glad that things progressed as they did. The truth reveals itself, after all.


How did things progress? What truth did reveal itself?

What indicated the perceived lack of reading comprehension skills, in your eyes?



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 09:24 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


Thanks, I think this one fits you the best, even literally, how ironic.


6) False Moderation: Pretending to be the “voice of reason” in an argument with obvious and defined sides in an attempt to move people away from what is clearly true into a “grey area” where the truth becomes “relative.”




Why not directly answer the questions that were directed at you?

~Derp

Btw, I even know for a fact that a part of ATS staff even agrees with me.
edit on 24-9-2012 by DermotMcDerp because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by DermotMcDerp
 


If your reply to me was not AIMED at me maybe you should have clarified, but since you have now done that I begrudge you not.

However I hope that you think about what I said to you. When people say things in a way as to elicit any particular kind of response it IS manipulation. The manipulation is not always intentional but sometimes it is. Take for example this: an insecure person who continually says to their lover "I love you" is trying to elicit a response of "I love you too". In that circumstance they are trying to manipulate their lover into soothing their own insecurity. He/she probably doesn't realize that it is manipulation- but it is.

Another example: You make a statement that I disagree with. We debate in a friendly manner for a while but we both start to get frustrated at not being able to sway each other's opinion. So the debate takes a downward turn. I say something insulting to you intended to make you angry. You reply something equally offensive in an attempt to elicit an angry, emotional response. In that case we are both trying to manipulate each other into losing our tempers and making angry, emotional responses to try to make each other look like idiots instead of rational thinkers. While we may not realize that we are attempting to manipulate each other, it is in fact what we would be doing.

Anyway, you get my drift. No hard feelings.



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 09:32 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


Haha. I read that and could see exactly what would happen. It didn't have much in the way of comments then so I figured it was you venting (otherwise known as breathing, in the world of writers), and thought all the entrail-ripping was aimed at others, for the time being. How amusing to see that it didn't turn out that way. How very predictable people are. You don't even have to be a manipulator of any sort. It's almost as though the buttons push themselves these days. Knees are jerking all over the place and in all directions.

Your post was very clearly exactly what it was, but what it was never meant to be is what gained momentum. If we apply this to everything else we read and hear, we might just learn something about the state of information reception in the public at large. It's not very good. There is no critical thinking at all, nor is there humor, nor is there introspection. There is simply fear and rage.

You're apologizing for imbeciles being imbeciles. Don't apologize for pointing that out to them. It's all pearls to swine, my friend.



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 09:37 AM
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reply to post by littled16
 


This is the semantics discussion again.

We all manipulate. The big difference is being sincere in your goals or not.

Heff was accused of not being sincere.

He made a thread about it and tried to turn it into being about the manipulation we all are all guilty of, the benevolent form. It clearly worked.



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by DermotMcDerp
 


I think he was being sincere. He brought to the forefront the fact that we are all manipulated- intentionally AND unintentionally every day of our lives. And we are ALL guilty of manipulation- intentional and unintentional. This is something that most of us don't think about very often, but we SHOULD.

Last night I intentionally manipulated my husband into giving me his candy bar. Did I know that I was manipulating him? Yes! Did I really think about it before becoming involved in this thread? No!

I think that Heff was sincere in his attempt to get us thinking about it, talking about it. We are manipulated by government, the MSM, advertisers, friends, relatives....everybody. And in turn we are also constantly manipulating- whether we wish to admit that to ourselves or not.

Apparently the thread did it's job. Even after it was closed we are still discussing it today. Was it manipulation? He out and out told us it was! But that does not mean that he wasn't sincere. The only thing he manipulated people into doing was to think about it and to discuss and exchange ideas about it. I don't see that as anything to be offended by, just as I don't see your disagreement with my opinion as anything to be offended by.



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 10:23 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Hi folks,

Rules regarding moderators limit my ability to express certain things. But I will say this much... As a moderator on a website - sometimes that title alone attracts negativity and disruption. This happens for a variety of reasons and it's just something we live with. We learn to ignore it for the most part.

Unfortunately sometimes that vitriol and agenda affects other members as well. And for that I apologize.

Staff on ATS are not allowed to moderate in their own threads and also moderate by consensus, meaning multiple staff members reviewing things before an action is taken. This helps to prevent us from losing perspective, going on personal vendettas, and making mistakes based upon misinterpretation. Sometimes this can be a slow and occasionally frustrating thing. It certainly was, for me, last night.

Above I posted a summary of disruption techniques and a link. If these are new subjects to you, please read and / or bookmark them. As I can assure you, you will see such behavior again.

As for me - I will continue to post and contribute to this community no matter how difficult it becomes. I see these things as a form of terrorism and refuse to alter my own behavior to accommodate the agendas of others.

Thanks for your support folks. sincerely.

~Heff

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
edit on 9/24/12 by Hefficide because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 11:12 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 11:14 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 12:42 PM
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reply to post by DermotMcDerp
 





posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 12:51 PM
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Dude--All of this is totally intriguing and awesome.It's amazing how even our experiments are experiments,LOL!
Also--Your Lemmy avatar is ACE (OF SPADES)!!



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by WhisperingWinds
 


Funnily enough, the member UCAlien has a thread that is STILL ACTIVE after 2 and a half years!


www.abovetopsecret.com...

I was right, his account was reinstated but like I said, he had already had enough of ATS by that point.



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 06:55 PM
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getting upset with a stranger who admits to manipulating you is essentially, to me, neglecting one's own responsibility to be in control of their own perceptions, responses, and reactions to the words of others. i don't agree with those posters that became enraged with you (i remember reading only a handful of pages of replies to your post, i probably missed the most vitriolic of responses), it's just another example of individuals blaming others for their reaction to them.

at the same time, i guess in some ways i understand the anger... to an extent. my boyfriend is an ex-addict, so i have personal experience with an extremely adept and well-practiced manipulator - someone, in fact, who knew me so well he was able to tailor-make manipulative behaviors that would work on me. however, in reflecting upon it after the fact, i realize that any blame i could cast on him is so besides-the-point and unhelpful it serves me no good to focus on it. because ultimately, i (through ignorance, or blind trust, or whatever) allowed myself to be manipulated by him, which is something i would not realize if i never had that revelatory moment when i realized what was going on.

obviously, as he is a loved one, the broken trust does allow for some understandable feelings of anger... so it's a little different than with a complete internet stranger. perhaps trust is understandable if someone's built up a positive forum reputation, but also sort of ironic on a website in which the existence of "shills" and "paid disinfo agents" is not only likely but a well-known possibility (and we, as members, have a responsibility to be aware of this, do we not?). i just don't see how anyone can get away from the fact that they have a RESPONSIBILITY to maintain control of their perceptions... especially on a conspiracy theory-oriented website. it's sort of ironic, really. why do we expect that we can blindly trust ANYONE here? and get mad if we feel that trust is broken? isn't that the source of much of the deception in the world at large, through government, media, etc?

so anyway, being made aware that someone has manipulated you is a gift, in a way. because at the heart of any, maybe all, manipulation is an unconscious process on the part of the person being manipulated. being easily manipulated is indeed a form of ignorance, but one that has the potential for incredible insight once the deception is exposed. to allow anger to consume the potential insights and understanding one can gain from realizing they've been psychologically hoodwinked is ridiculous, it negates individual responsibility for what we see and why we see it, and limits our ability to protect against it again in the future.



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 10:15 PM
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Workin the sympathy man! I do like your writing style really, and it's rare I like that about people when I disagree with some of their positions.
You can only have the puppy if you sign up for the bundle



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 07:59 AM
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I know I'm very new here but I read the original post (due to the catchy title) and I thoroughly enjoyed the read. The topics of social engineering and manipulation are very interesting and your post was a good example.
Too many people on the Internet believe everything they are spoon fed. And then these same people want to get all upset when someone deceives them..
Anyway nice post. S&F



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 10:16 AM
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I enjoyed your post, I am interested in manipulation also. Mass psychology, advertising and the building of societies ethics and morals.

Ironically, many people who attacked you in that thread, showed the main premise of Mass psychology; the emotional response. They formed an emotional reaction based on just the title which influenced the way they read your post, if they even made it to the end. Carefully reading and comprehending the post goes straight out the _

I believe society has been manipulated into that mindset where it is the expected norm to have an overly emotional responce in general and in particular for certain subjects. My fave is paedo's, if you do not have an overly emotional responce, you are considered very strange. I prefer to consider ways of reducing the amount of kids exposed to this by identifying potential paedo's and getting them help BEFORE they offend. Chopping his *** off after the fact doesn't help the child does it? What is the accepted response when the topic comes up? "If anyone did that to my child I would x, y, z" It has no bearing on the story, but multiple people will do it and some do in every single thread on the topic!

What this has created is the fact that there is no more stranger paedo's (vast majority has always been in family and friends) than there was 30 years ago, but the fear is vastly larger, I read the average 8 year old used to be allowed 1/2 mile from thier house when playing out, now it is more like 10m.

I cannot recommend the documentary Adam Curtis - Century of the self enough, Edward Bernays has a lot to answer for



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by DJOldskool
 





Ironically, many people who attacked you in that thread, showed the main premise of Mass psychology; the emotional response. They formed an emotional reaction based on just the title which influenced the way they read your post, if they even made it to the end. Carefully reading and comprehending the post goes straight out the _


You have formed an assumption, based on that thread alone.

Heff, has stated in other threads, that he was so great at manipulating women in bars on a Friday night, that divorce lawyers should basically pay his tab. This was stated after he said he hit up on single women in the bar, which makes no sense.

He's also bragged about his intelligence as a 6 year old..stating something to the effect that he was the only 6 year old that has ever answered an adults request to sit at the childrens table with some long drawn out intelligent reply.

I will admit I enjoy Heff's writing style, and he does have some great posts, but personally , I see his ego bragging a little too much at times, and the thread on manipulation just read as more ego to me.

Am I guilty of reading into his character in other threads, and transferring it onto the thread about manipulation ?

Yep, I would have to say I am...because my response to this thread was not based on that thread alone, but on my views of some of his other posts.

I think in some ways Heff has tried to manipulate us into thinking a certain way about him, but I have to say, it has probably backfired in some cases.

Just being honest..about why some of us may have read the subliminal message of ego yet again.








edit on 25-9-2012 by WhisperingWinds because: (no reason given)





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