Debate over a Nuclear Iran is just an Illusion- drop your preconceived opinions to see the reality, page 4

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reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 04:58 PM by charles1952

reply to post by superman2012

Unforunately, in your enthusiasm for the subject, you may be exaggerating slightly.

Read about what they could be using it for, why they say they are using it. Then look at the the US, Israel, IAEA, and Iran (too name a couple) intelligence, and wonder why they are all saying that Iran is not making a nuclear bomb.

Actually, they're not saying that.

Touching upon his report on the implementation of nuclear safeguards in Iran, the head of the UN's nuclear watchdog noted that despite the intensified dialogue between the Agency and Iran since January, the no concrete results have been achieved so far. This is frustrating because, without Iran's full engagement, we will not be able to start the process to resolve all outstanding issues, including those concerning possible military dimensions to its nuclear program, he told the meeting.

He said it is "a matter of concern that activities which have taken place since February 2012 at Parchin will have an adverse impact on our ability to undertake effective verification there." Amano said that despite Iran's rejection in a letter dated 29 August 2012 that the allegation of nuclear activities at the Parchin site was 'baseless,' "the activities observed further strengthen our assessment that it is necessary to have access to the location at Parchin without further delay in order to obtain the required clarifications."

The nuclear agency continues to verify the non-diversion of nuclear material declared by Iran under its Safeguards Agreement. However, Iran is not providing the necessary cooperation to enable us to provide credible assurance about the absence of undeclared nuclear material and activities, and therefore to conclude that all nuclear material in Iran is in peaceful activities, Amano said. (Emphasis added)

Iran is hiding the requested (and required under the treaty) access to various sites to verify that they are not using nuclear materials for military purposes. In short, Iran is saying "Oh, we're innocent." While not allowing the required checks.

You may want to correct your statement, or your thinking, in light of this information. On the other hand, I guess you'd better not try.
www.rttnews.com...

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 05:11 PM by RealSpoke

Hey guess what guys! The British deserves to punish the USA. The US killed their soldiers and overran their territory. They even plotted to take the kings son as a hostage!!!!!!

The Americans are so sick they let off "fireworks", which are nothing but pretty looking bombs to celebrate the destruction and deaths of so many every year. They call it "Independence Day" but would be more properly named "Terrorist Day".

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 05:25 PM by superman2012

reply to post by charles1952

Actually, they're not saying that.

US Secretary of Defense:

YouTube Link

Israel Intelligence:
Link

Iran Government says that it is peaceful and or for medical research which would fall in line with the level that they are enriching to.

Iran is hiding the requested (and required under the treaty) access to various sites to verify that they are not using nuclear materials for military purposes. In short, Iran is saying "Oh, we're innocent." While not allowing the required checks.

Again, as I stated before,

Parchin is a military base, it is not under the jurisdiction of the IAEA as it is not a nuclear site. They have allowed the IAEA in there before and it is being negotiated to allow them in there.

The IAEA has no proof either, just speculation. I don't know why Iran is playing this game, but until I see 100% proof, I see no reason for the sanctions or another Iraqesque war.

You may want to correct your statement, or your thinking, in light of this information. On the other hand, I guess you'd better not try.

I said this in regards to Parchin:
They have allowed the IAEA in there before and it is being negotiated to allow them in there.

We'll see what happens as in the article you linked to:

He expressed hope that, as a result of IAEA's intensified dialogue with Iran, concrete, tangible results will be achieved without further delay.

Do I hope Iran allows them full access to every place suspected of being a nuclear site? Sure. Do I believe they have to? No. Military bases are not the jurisdiction of the IAEA. If the US or any other country believe they are building nuclear bombs (which they don't) then they should make a move on that country besides punishing the innocent citizens of that country with ineffective sanctions.

Edit: The only military purpose I see them using it for is for their Nuclear Submarines but don't worry, I'm not so stupid that I can't see this as also a possible excuse for higher enrichment.

edit on 10-9-2012 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 05:50 PM by Ghost375

Originally posted by Wonderer2012
Well, as incredible as it may sound, America and her allies still need 'justification' to actually began a military campaign. 9/11 justified the Afghanistan invasion of 2001, the WMD lie justified the Iraq invasion of 2003, intervention in Libya in 2011 was justifed on humanitarian grounds. Justification is required because of international politics.

Actually, they don't need justification. They can do whatever the f they want.
What are you, or the rest of the dumbed down masses, going to do about it?

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 05:59 PM by charles1952

reply to post by superman2012

The IAEA has no proof either, just speculation. I don't know why Iran is playing this game, but until I see 100% proof, I see no reason for the sanctions or another Iraqesque war.

And that was part of my point. Because of Iran's hiding, no one knows for certain. The change is that the world no longer believes that Iran is not building Nuclear weapons, they've moved to "We can't prove it, either way. But it looks like a problem."

As far as wanting 100% proof. I can't absolutely prove my mother is my mother. I'm not even 100% sure that the world isn't a very thorough dream. You're not going to get 100% proof of anything. Even if a nuke is launched from within Iran, nobody will be able to prove, 100%, that Iran fired it. It could have been a false flag.

So, may I suggest that you adjust your standard of proof a little. I'm afraid a 100% proof position will tend to marginalize you.

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 06:03 PM by crawdad1914

Originally posted by Ghost375

Originally posted by Wonderer2012
Well, as incredible as it may sound, America and her allies still need 'justification' to actually began a military campaign. 9/11 justified the Afghanistan invasion of 2001, the WMD lie justified the Iraq invasion of 2003, intervention in Libya in 2011 was justifed on humanitarian grounds. Justification is required because of international politics.

Actually, they don't need justification. They can do whatever the f they want.
What are you, or the rest of the dumbed down masses, going to do about it?

Good point.

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 06:05 PM by My_Reality

reply to post by Wonderer2012

I know what you mean. I usually don't even bother trying to discuss this situation impartially. Far too many fanatics and zealots that care only for their own narrow view of the world. I respect your effort but I am said to say it will most likely be in vain. Take this person I am responding to below as the perfect example. All he wants is blood. The facts, history, circumstances and the very real possibility of a third world war be damned.

reply to post by ronnieray123

How hypocritical. You seem to forget that it was America that overthrew Iran's democratically elected leader. This fact is a major reason why Iran has come to be ruled by its theocracy today. Your tangent is amusing. Getting angry at a country for reacting to a coup by America which installed the Pro-American Shah. I am going to assume that you consider the taking of 52 hostages far more dire than the USA toppling governments. Typical childish sabre-rattling behavior. I bet if Iran overthrew a democratically elected president of the USA you would do everything in your power to right the situation.

Attitudes like yours ensure that world peace will not be achieved. Your blood lust is pathetic. Furthermore, the blood lust you display makes me sad to be an American. Weak. Very weak.

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 06:10 PM by buddhasystem

Originally posted by Wonderer2012
So this current debate between America and Israel is nothing more than an illusion to make the masses think America is in fact trying to avoid war.

You must not be following geopolitics very closely. America is in no position to successfully invade, and let alone "change regime" in a country like Iran, without committing most if not all of its remaining resources. Iraq was not a cakewalk either, but Iran is something completely different.

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 06:22 PM by superman2012

reply to post by charles1952

Ok, how about 90%?

...or any proof besides speculation?

How does this strike you?
You have all the parts to build guns in your house. All your neighbors find out about this and naturally assume you are going to build guns and kill them all. Is that a reasonable assumption? Ok, now they want to search your house, but, you don’t want to allow them into your garage because it is detached and not a part of the house. Does that fit the criteria that you are building guns to kill them all? Or even that you have succeeded in building the guns? Just because you have parts in your possession does not mean that you have evil intent with them, maybe you are going to make them into stylish lighters.
Just because some countries are scared of a nuclear capable Iran, does not mean that Iran is using their enriched uranium for nuclear bombs.

edit on 10-9-2012 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)

Edit again: I suggest that the subject at hand be the focus of the discussion instead of percentages and what is real.

My analogy is fitting for what is happening to Iran right now...they are also being very suspect and are just feeding the MSM with doubts. As I stated before, I can also see those doubts, but, I can see the other side as well.

edit on 10-9-2012 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 07:41 PM by MamaJ

Wow! I couldn't read too much of this thread as it seems the op was pretty spot in my opinion, however the message went down hill after that! Lol

Just an observation and or opinion.

The Roman Empire will fall! If you don't know the story then read up on it!

You will know what happens at the end. Well, maybe. Lol

What we are witnesses of today is truly a Holy War!

Israel though is not the chosen people.... We are. The good people. The ones who see the sinister actions/actors for what they are!!

We are the people, no matter what we have the seed planted in us from our forefathers of peace!!

If there comes a huge war, just know that we ( the peaceful people) will prevail in the end!

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 07:42 PM by FissionSurplus

This is from the 1970s. Remember when Iran was our friend and we helped them with their nuclear power?

Funny how we turn things around when it suits a nefarious agenda.

They've been nuclear for a long, long time. Ever wonder why, all of a sudden, there's a problem?

Please read Which Path to Persia to see that it has nothing to do with Iran's nukes, and everything to do with taking over.
www.brookings.edu...

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 07:56 PM by charles1952

reply to post by superman2012

While I don't quite agree with the analogy, let's suppose I do. One of my larger problems with the Iranian leadership is something you and others have pointed out.

they are also being very suspect and are just feeding the MSM with doubts.

None of us seem to know the reason why Iran is acting the way they are, but they must know that continued non-cooperation with their treaty's inspectors is increasing the fear and making war more likely.

Grant, for a moment, that Islam is a religion of peace, and that Iran is innocent and wants peace, why aren't they taking the steps that would promise peace? Saying "We are too proud to let you inspect." is completely understandable under normal situations, but this definitely isn't normal. They're risking a lot for their sense of pride and independence.

Now this is an honest question, from the heart, that I really hope someone can answer. Can someone give me another reason for their behavior besides insanity (wild recklessness) or weapons preparation they don't want exposed?

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 08:06 PM by tracehd1

I'm surprised you had to make a whole new thread on this subject....seems like its been stated before in all the other post started.

Bottom line as I have said as many others have said....Iran is part of the 7 Countries that the US wants to invade and take over for resources and land and sea.

The big oil boys want the Caspain Sea....the US wants the new Gwader port that Pakistan wants china to build and run...worth large amounts of money.

It's disgusting that we Americans are allowing some of our own people to steal from the Middle East and disguise it as trying to save people from the evil dictators. Most Iraqies today will tell you that the American Military is far worse then Saddam ever was.

The power elite has wanted Iran forever...and we're allowing them the satisfaction on all levels!!!!

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 08:29 PM by superman2012

reply to post by charles1952

Now this is an honest question, from the heart, that I really hope someone can answer. Can someone give me another reason for their behavior besides insanity (wild recklessness) or weapons preparation they don't want exposed?

The only other thing that I can thing of (besides some wild conspiracy to drag the US into another war, bankrupting it, allowing China and Russia to become Numero Uno) is that they want to have the respect that comes with being the big dog. Israel is not a part of the NPT and they have no one claiming foul on them, because (and they admitted as much) they are like a rabid dog. I think that if Iran is developing nukes, it will be for a similar idea.
Good question Charles!

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 08:58 PM by twistedlogic

reply to post by ronnieray123

If any one of you, were the only name on that list..........that is all the justification I need to rain death and destruction.

You are a very irrational.....

...I hope puts such a deep fear in its people and its rulers that the mere sight of an American flag gives their children nightmares and fills their mothers and fathers despair.

cruel....

If their is not one person left standing in that whole country, if we make a direct hit on their nuclear facility and it causes the slow and painful deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iranians, I will make popcorn and watch their suffering with glee in my heart.

inhumane individual......

To be blunt; you are what's wrong with the world. Lumping everyone together based on geography,.... I hope no one lumps me in the same category as you..

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 09:00 PM by neocontrip

Personally. Pop it off, already! Do it! I want to see Lucifer rise.

I look around and without a doubt know that all this, hell on Earth. It is allowed. It is allowed by the free will consciousness of man. So I personally blame the sheep. So bring wars, bring big waves, let's get it on.

I think this might be the moral of Jesus, the only piece of truth from it. You see he died for your sin? He died for the sheep, that have lost there free will. There souls enslaved, lost. This whole game is made up folks, if everyone thought like I did we all would just say enough is enough

Here's to the zombie Apocalypse.

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 09:06 PM by charles1952

reply to post by superman2012

Thank you very much, I was hoping for some answer that didn't lead directly to a nightmare. I suppose we will have to make sure every country gets one. They'll all want one and we can't really say "no." Then will we have peace? (Rhetorical question)

Anyway, thanks again, I appreciate it.

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 09:09 PM by neocontrip

Any and every war you see is engineered. It has been quite sometime since a declared War. I think we are due. I also think there is major PSY to destabilize America, The citizen now feels uncertain about his Country, the sheep really do not even know why they feel this, economy, china,serial killers, bad weather, oh my?? So what this means, future wars will impact the US citizen like no other! They have us conditioned to lose now folks. Be prepared, the engineered war of the future does not have America winning!

The entire Earth is what is really suffering here. It's clear humanity does not deserve the right to call it home.

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 09:23 PM by superman2012

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by superman2012

Thank you very much, I was hoping for some answer that didn't lead directly to a nightmare. I suppose we will have to make sure every country gets one. They'll all want one and we can't really say "no." Then will we have peace? (Rhetorical question)

Anyway, thanks again, I appreciate it.

Personally, I don't think any country should have nuclear weapons. Advance thorium molten salt reactors and you won't have to worry about weapons grade uranium enrichment under the guise of peaceful nuclear power.

reply posted on 10-9-2012 @ 09:39 PM by yourignoranceisbliss

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by SplitInfinity

OK...without preconceived notions...lets just look at the facts.

Iran has broken the NPT in just about every way and thus it must either change it's current behavior and abide by the Treaty or face Sanctions and possible Military action.

Iran has admitted to building Tens of Thousands of Centrifuges to enrich Uranium and there is only one reason why this many centrifuges would be built and that is to enrich enough Uranium to Weapons Grade for use in a Bomb.

Iran is currently being protected from Israeli Bombing of it's Nuclear Sites by the United States as the U.S. has forbidden Israel to Bomb sites that would shoot radioactive Material into the Air and Poison much of the Middle East.

Iran has made threats to close the Strait of Hormuz as well as Destroy Israel. If Iran either attempts to Close the Strait or declare they have Nuclear Weapons...the U.S. Military will be forced to go in.

These are the REALITIES....Iran has made it's own bed. Split Infinity

Every single one of your talking points are strawmen.

If ANY of those accusations were true, grounds for invasion would be had, and we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

The truth is, there is no evidence that Iran has or wants nuclear weapons. They don't have the infrustructure set up to manufacture long range deployment missiles, either. There are also Jewish people living inside Iran as well.

Basically your entire post is pure propaganda without any basis in reality or shred of evidence to support it. You summarized all of Israel's paranoid delusions in a single post, and like Israel, you fail over and over again to provide proof that the Iranian government, NOT THEIR RELIGIOUS SECTS, want any type of war at all.

Grow up, kid. Separate fact from fiction. Every country has it's religious zealots. Should the U.S. be judged off the unpopular ranting of the Westboro Baptists? Should Israel be judged by the racist and downright evil rantings from fanatical rabbi in the Talmud? Iran is no different. And again, JEWISH PEOPLE LIVE IN IRAN. Let that settle into your soft grey matter for a second.

Iran isn't some fictional evil nation. They're developing nuclear energy to become less dependant on oil, just as they have been saying over and over. They are also a soveriegn nation, and have every right to do as they please in their own country. And the NPT? They never broke the treaty, so I don't know where you got that idea from. Maybe your zionist employers?

Want an example of a REAL rogue nation that threatens peace? You need look no further than Israel.

Israel refuses to sign the non-proliferation treaty.

Israel refuses to do anything the UN asks, including allowing inspection of their nuclear facilities.

Israel refuses to say how many nukes they have.

Israel refuses to declare the borders of their nation, as they continually expand and illegally settle into neighboring land.

Israel bulldozes homes and in at least one case, bulldozes PEOPLE, like American Rachel Corrie.

And the biggest irony of all? Israel is the LOUDEST nation against Iran. Such incredible hypocrisy, from a nation like Israel that has hundreds of U.N. violations, to cry and cry and cry about Iran, and yet they have proven to be the biggest provoker of war in the region.

So no, there is no justification of war with Iran. If America wasn't bought out by AIPAC, the JDL, and the dozens of other lobby groups in Washington, we might very well have military bases surrounding Israel right now, and not Iran. If it were up to me, I'd have you banned from these forums for spreading lies and propaganda.

edit on 10-9-2012 by yourignoranceisbliss because: (no reason given)