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Debate over a Nuclear Iran is just an Illusion- drop your preconceived opinions to see the reality

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posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 06:51 AM
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Originally posted by RogerT3

Originally posted by charles1952


Are you really suggesting putting a self proclaimed homicidal psychopath, who sees nothing wrong with murdering millions of innocent men, women and children in order to exact revenge over a 60 year old 444 day incarceration of 52 people, in charge of the most powerful and destructive military force on the planet
edit on 11-9-2012 by RogerT3 because: (no reason given)



It seems you do not know history, so please discontinue posting until you do. It was not 60 years ago, and it was not incarceration. Incarceration is what you do to criminals for breaking laws, not for being born in a certain country. They were hostages and please stop referring them to anything else because it demeans what happened to them.
All of you deceivers here would be just as willing to put yourself and your family over mine if it came down to who survives and who perishes. Survival of the fittest just doesn't happen when you say it is acceptable. It happens when the fittest says it does, without permission from anyone.




posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 06:57 AM
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Originally posted by TrueBlood
I think there are 2 reasons why this happens. First issue is I think alot of western nations (especially Americans) simply do not like Muslim people. It is viewed as a foreign religion to us and our Governments have all but brainwashed us into thinking that Islam is full of crazies. People see the media taking quotes out of context and buy right into it.

The second issue is I don't think people understand the difference between the Jewish religion and the Zionists in control of the Israeli state. If you even mention Israel in a negative light you're automatically labeled anti semitic.

At the end of the day neither side is in the right here and it is not any other nation's job to play world police. Let Israel fight it's own holy wars.


has israel vowed to take over lebanon and rid it of it's people?
has israel vowed to take over jordan and kill all of it's people?
has israel vowed to invade egypt and push it's people into the sea?
israel does not want holy wars, it wants to be left alone, no bombs, no invasions, no terrorists, and not threathened with total destruction by the countries around it.

has anyone really considered that there is alot of people worldwide making billions of dollars off of the hatred perpetuated by the middle east conflicts?
THEY LOVE YOUR HATRED OF ONE ANOTHER, it makes them rich



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 07:07 AM
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Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by TrueBlood
I think there are 2 reasons why this happens. First issue is I think alot of western nations (especially Americans) simply do not like Muslim people. It is viewed as a foreign religion to us and our Governments have all but brainwashed us into thinking that Islam is full of crazies. People see the media taking quotes out of context and buy right into it.

The second issue is I don't think people understand the difference between the Jewish religion and the Zionists in control of the Israeli state. If you even mention Israel in a negative light you're automatically labeled anti semitic.

At the end of the day neither side is in the right here and it is not any other nation's job to play world police. Let Israel fight it's own holy wars.


has israel vowed to take over lebanon and rid it of it's people?
has israel vowed to take over jordan and kill all of it's people?
has israel vowed to invade egypt and push it's people into the sea?
israel does not want holy wars, it wants to be left alone, no bombs, no invasions, no terrorists, and not threathened with total destruction by the countries around it.

has anyone really considered that there is alot of people worldwide making billions of dollars off of the hatred perpetuated by the middle east conflicts?
THEY LOVE YOUR HATRED OF ONE ANOTHER, it makes them rich


We can go on all day about this. The fact is, the middle east has been at war with itself for hundreds of years. It's not going to stop now. It's not going to stop ever. All I know is when Israel was created there were 3 conquered nations in Germany, Italay and Japan that could have been given to them. Instead, land that was already owned was handed over and Israel wonders why it can't be left alone? This war has been going on forever. It is a holy war. The same as it was then so the same as it always will be. I don't care what happens to the middle east. My country did not put Israel there. Tell the Brits to worry about it.



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 07:25 AM
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Let the music play, i say.

Rita

Maybe they could dance it out.



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 08:37 AM
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reply to post by RogerT3
 

Dear RogerT3,

I don't understand your criticism. I'm arrogant and judgmental? And those are inferred? Perhaps I should just deal with the criticism I understand.


Your post seems reasonable right up to the last sentence, but your posts are often like that. Nice and humble and civil looking on the outside but inferring a kind of arrogant rhetorical stance that is just as judgemental as the posts you criticize.

Are you really suggesting putting a self proclaimed homicidal psychopath, who sees nothing wrong with murdering millions of innocent men, women and children in order to exact revenge over a 60 year old 444 day incarceration of 52 people, in charge of the most powerful and destructive military force on the planet
I wrote:

It may be that insanity is all there is.

If that's the case, then it's time to put Ronnieray123 in charge of our military.
What I thought I was saying was that if Iran is just totally nuts, then we need to aggressively attack, and thoroughly clean out Iran's rulers, instead of sending in people a thousand at a time to attempt to adjust the population's attitude toward us, while the troops get blown up, several every day.

I don't think ronnieray123 would just kill anyone sitting in the street, but I do think he'd eliminate the government, quickly and thoroughly, without regard for whether anyone is "offended." That's how you win a war. Which, of course, is the goal.

(And, no, I don't think ronnieray123 himself should be made the head of the military, it's the attitude as I've just described that counts.)

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 08:47 AM
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Russians had/have thousands of nukes ...

China has nukes (and wants Taiwan) ...

North Korea has nukes (and wants South Korea) ...

Pakistan has nukes (and wants Kashmir) ...

Iran gets a nuke ... so what?

None of these countries have used one because if they do their population, culture, countryside - everything - is over. The end. Finished.

"Oh but the Iranian leaders are crazy."

If ever there was a good case for crazy it would be the leaders of North Korea, and yet despite the rhetoric, no mushroom clouds.

The argument I am hearing is that "We are going to war to prevent war" because we are trying to prevent a nuclear bomb from going off in the middle east and yet in this coming war we will probably see a nuclear bomb go off in the middle east
(probably over Iran)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If anything Iran getting a nuclear bomb will prevent war.

I think the rush for war is to take over and invade Iran before they get a nuke.

Will the US, or Israel, attack a nuclear armed Iran?

Could it be *GASPS* nuclear weapons will maintain peace through MAD!?

-------------

The Saudi's want nuke power too, for peaceful purposes only of course ...

online.wsj.com

Did you know that there are over 45 countries that are seeking nuclear power

www.world-nuclear.org


The front runners after Iran are UAE, Turkey, Vietnam, Belarus, Poland and Jordan.
edit on 11-9-2012 by MegaMind because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 09:32 AM
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reply to post by Wonderer2012
 


You dropped the politics, experts and essentially the truth, and your only argument was "if we drop it all and I come up with the idea that this is all bogus, then I'm right".

Not a single statement did you prove.



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 10:02 AM
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Originally posted by ronnieray123
Let them be an example for all to see as they wallow in self pity at what has happened to them. Let them ask me personally why I am so happy at their misery because I will gladly tell them and read each name off of the list and explain to them that they created me, I was not born this way.


And the cycle of violence continues.

Do you not get that each and every innocent civilian you kill FEELS EXACTLY THE SAME WAY YOU JUST EXPRESSED? Do you not get that each and every innocent person who loses a family member or a loved one wants exactly the same revenge you want?

Thank God people like you are NOT behind the button.



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by munkey66
reply to post by ronnieray123
 


So my history or maths must be screwed up
I always thought 1953 Iranian coup d'état (operation Ajax) happened before November 4, 1979, to January 20, 1981.

Britain (Churchill) and the United States (Eisenhower administration) decided to overthrow Iran's government


Your history and math are correct, sir. This very point you just made always wins the "Iran argument" and thank you for posting this because not enough Americans know or care about the real story.

Have a star, from me to you.

Fu** the MSM,
Lima-1, out.



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by flice
 

OK...to be fair...lets look at Israel.

Right now Israel finds itself in a position where it has a country...IRAN...that has promised to wipe it off the map.

Israel did not sign the NPT because it had the Tech. to develop Reactors and Weapons on it's own. Although there is a glitch in this as the U.S. provided Israel Weapons Grade Fuel shortly after Israel was attacked by Egypt again.

Regardless of the issues over Settlement Building have been handled poorly by Israel but if it were the U.S. that was being attacked by Rockets every day like Israel was and still is...the U.S. Military would OBLITERATE the Threat. So if anything...Israel has acted less violently than we would.

Since Israel did not sign the NPT it does not have to abide by the Treaties Rules...IRAN did not have the Tech ability to build Reactors so it signed the Treaty and bought the Reactors and Tech. Because Iran did not build this Tech on it's own it must abide by the Treaty.

Israel has been told to STAY OUT OF THE COMING FIGHT! The reason for this is the Secret U.S. Military to Iranian Military Talks on going. The Old Religious Guard will soon come to a moment where it will be threatened by it's own Pro-Democracy Movement. It will do whatever it takes to stay in power such as Order it's navy to Close the Strait of Hormuz or attack Israel with Missiles. They will order this because they will want to portray the U.S. as a Zionist Controlled Military bent on the destruction of Iran. The Military Talks are designed to let the Iranian Military and Navy in particular KNOW that if the Navy is ordered to close the Strait and refuses the Old Religious Guards Order...it will not be attacked by the U.S. and by standing down...will allow the Pro-Democracy Group to Take over the Iranian Government. Thus the Navy will become the protectors of a New Free Iran...as will any other Iranian Military Group that Stands Down. This will NOT WORK IF ISRAEL IS INVOLVED. The Iranians would FIGHT and Israel has been told under NO CIRCUMSTANCES IS IT TO ATTACK IRAN! Split Infinity



Is there somewhere I can verify this?



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by superman2012
 

While I don't quite agree with the analogy, let's suppose I do. One of my larger problems with the Iranian leadership is something you and others have pointed out.

they are also being very suspect and are just feeding the MSM with doubts.
None of us seem to know the reason why Iran is acting the way they are, but they must know that continued non-cooperation with their treaty's inspectors is increasing the fear and making war more likely.

Grant, for a moment, that Islam is a religion of peace, and that Iran is innocent and wants peace, why aren't they taking the steps that would promise peace? Saying "We are too proud to let you inspect." is completely understandable under normal situations, but this definitely isn't normal. They're risking a lot for their sense of pride and independence.

Now this is an honest question, from the heart, that I really hope someone can answer. Can someone give me another reason for their behavior besides insanity (wild recklessness) or weapons preparation they don't want exposed?



They wish to usher in the coming of the 12th imam, at any cost. And then incinerate the entire world.



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by charles1952
It may be that insanity is all there is.

If that's the case, then it's time to put Ronnieray123 in charge of our military.


My bad, I missed the first sentence.
Sure, if insanity is all there is, then let's just keep killing anyone we don't agree with or don't like for whatever reason seems reasonable to the killers!
But insanity isn't all there is - is it? Surely, in your many years on this Earth-walk, you've had the odd moment of clarity/sanity.


What I thought I was saying was that if Iran is just totally nuts, then we need to aggressively attack, and thoroughly clean out Iran's rulers, instead of sending in people a thousand at a time to attempt to adjust the population's attitude toward us, while the troops get blown up, several every day.



OK, understood. Personally, I think agressively attacking any human or group of humans is totally nuts (especially when I do it myself) and just more insanity.

But then I'm one of those crazy people that believes in humanity as an entity consisting of around 7 billion cells called humans, you know, we're all in this together kind of thing.

"The best defense is a strong offense" and prophylactic wars are IMO the rantings and actions of a feeble and rather scared egoic mind, and typical of the mindset of those in positions of global authority and their non-feeling followers.
edit on 11-9-2012 by RogerT3 because: (no reason given)
edit on 11-9-2012 by RogerT3 because: (no reason given)
edit on 11-9-2012 by RogerT3 because: (no reason given)
edit on 11-9-2012 by RogerT3 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by TrueBlood
First issue is I think alot of western nations (especially Americans) simply do not like Muslim people. It is viewed as a foreign religion to us and our Governments have all but brainwashed us into thinking that Islam is full of crazies. People see the media taking quotes out of context and buy right into it.


On the other hand, Muslim's are the ones running around the world BLOWING THINGS UP!!!!



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by ronnieray123
 


What were they doing there in the first place?

And this happened so long ago.

The Iran of that time is not the Iran that exists today.

For sanity's sake, we must move on.



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 10:47 AM
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reply to post by Yosemite Sam
 


Do you have anything better to do other than spread misconceptions?

Where did you find this malarkey?



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 11:19 AM
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Israeli Bombing of it's Nuclear Sites by the United States as the U.S. has forbidden Israel to Bomb
reply to post by flice
 


Hmm, not sure you know how it works....



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Wonderer2012
 

It's often a good idea to drop our preconceived opinions and examine things afresh. Would you help me out a little? I looked through your OP to find some facts that I could create new opinions from, but all I found were your opinions and your assumptions. Would you point out your facts, please? Oh, and are you dropping your preconceived opinions?


The OP ISN'T saying that he/she is perfectly objective, but that discussion participants should BEGIN to take a less subjective and more OBJECTIVE approach to certain political topics. Obviously, the OP has noticed a certain trend in themselves and the majority, which is the basis for this thread.

It is probably true that a large sum of the world has never had an original thought. Constantly bombarded with one-sided news broadcasts, massive media influence, familial and social impressions of predispositions and the everyday trial that is life in a society of prejudices and intolerance to difference. Therefore, it is not completely unreasonable to harbor the blame with the dynamics of humanity as a whole (and the human condition), rather than any individual. By this, I mean that preconceived opinions are expected. Even when one thinks that they are utterly unbiased and objective as possibly one can be, there is still an underlying tendency to lean into a single direction, whether one realises or not. I suppose, it cannot be helped when rubbish patriotism and religious fanaticism is used to persuade the masses. And, I'm talking about ALL the nations of the world. It's the same story wherever you are.

So, anyway, I think it'll be this way for some time to come until the human brain and mind evolve to a level of complete unemotional and impersonal function.

BTW, I, personally, have nothing against religion or those that practice it.

AND, sorry, for the late start into the thread, my first post.
edit on 11-9-2012 by roblot because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by skalla


Ignore me.....and I go away


given enough time he'll crawl back under his bridge and wait for some billygoats

and, oh yeah.... there is totally an agenda being worked by usa/uk etc, a long term plan for increased control of the middle east and if you fall for the news you're just a sucka.
edit on 10-9-2012 by skalla because: responding to OP


So a Iran is not involved in the growing "united states of Islam " Islamic superstate (caliphate) being secured in the region by muslims? Funny President "O" won;t intercede in Iran but tossed Khadafy out for the muslim brotherhood to take power? The dominoes are being allowed to fall in only one direction: establishment of a "Caliphate." Saw 2016" last night. It discussed this .



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Wonderer2012
 

OK...without preconceived notions...lets just look at the facts.

Iran has broken the NPT in just about every way and thus it must either change it's current behavior and abide by the Treaty or face Sanctions and possible Military action.




I remember reading/hearing this same exact argument against Iraq. Do you really have that bad of a memory?? they are using the same dog and pony show with Iran. I remember having this same exact argument with people before iraq was invaded. And lo and behold NO WMD. Its a pattern that you either cannot see or you wish to not to see. Look I do not have a problem with invading iran for resources or to just put a puppet government. What I do have a problem with are the lies.




These are the REALITIES.... Split Infinity


you betcha unfortunately you make up your own reality. Do you not see the parallels here, or has tv/net rotted your memory..


georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov...

edit on 11-9-2012 by votan because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by Wonderer2012
 


First off, I hope you understand the meaning of the word "irony" - because you ask us to let go of our preconceived notions and then follow that with your own preconceived notions...specifically the idea that the US is seeking Regime Change in Iran, it is quite evident that the notion of Iranian regime change went out the window with the GWB administration in the US - witness please the events of 2009 in Iran. If the current US administration had wanted a change in Iran, they would have supported what amounted to the strongest opposition movement since the coup that dethroned the Shah - instead, the US sat back and watched as untold thousands of protestors were arrested, tortured and executed. The US is doing the same thing vis a vis Syria right now - if the US wanted regime change, they could have it....like Libya, like Egypt. However, the US seems reluctant to engage in any way in Syria - just like with Iran in 2009...other than statements of condemnation by the President - just like with Iran in 2009. Is it just a coincidence that Iran is Syria's chief backer and ally?
Perhaps more thought should be given to the current US administration's reticence - and WHY the US is willing to risk Iran developing a nuclear weapon. Combine this FACT with the decidely "chilly" relationship between Israel and the current US administration....with the President's party dropping language supporting Israel from its platform (when the supposed Head of the Party is Jewish!)....let's also not forget that just weeks prior, the WH Press Secretary was unwilling to say that Jerusalem was the Capitol of Israel....WHY?
It seems very clear - if you read beyond the headlines and soundbytes - that this US Administration is going to make concessions (or perhaps already has made concesstions) to Muslim factions in the Middle East that are pressing the US to abandon Israel - and I think that its clear that the leader of those "factions" is Iran....it appears that the US is abetting an effort by Iran to become the first Muslim superpower. Why else would the US be so willing to assist in Libya/Egypt - both Countries ruled by Iconic Muslim leaders, while they do NOTHING when the same type of "Arab Spring" was attempted in Iran and Syria? The answer seems pretty bloody clear to me - which then begs the question, what would be the crowning achievement for a muslim leader to make that leader/Country the leading power among Muslim Countries? The destruction of Israel....if Iran does as it has promised to do ("wipe Israel off the map"), would they not then be exalted above all other Muslim nations?





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