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Abortion as seen through a perspective of civil rights.

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posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by kyviecaldges

Originally posted by quietlearner
reply to post by kyviecaldges
 


I think some other poster already replied saying that laws are changed
and he/she quoted past laws that were changed about blacks in america and women rights to vote...


I must have missed that. Would you be so kind as to point this out to me yourself.

Instead of saying this-

so there


Seriously.
I have no idea how laws about blacks or a woman's right to vote is applicable to the Ninth Amendment to the US Constitution, but I would certainly.... LURVE... to see you explain it to me.
edit on 24/8/2012 by kyviecaldges because: (no reason given)


sorry I don't remember what page its was or who was the user
but the african american rights and women rights were just mentioned
as examples were changing laws was a good thing

I really can't go back through every page just so you don't have to
you were the one complaining about people not responding to you
maybe it would help if you actually read the replies
edit on 24-8-2012 by quietlearner because: (no reason given)


I'm out for now, maybe if this thread is still alive I will chip in later
don't get too emotional
it's just a forum discussion after all
edit on 24-8-2012 by quietlearner because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 



That's an unfair generalization don't you think? Your sexism is showing.


No, it's not an unfair generalization, it is an observation of reality.

Spare the rod, spoil the child.... and women are spoiled by the state.


Both women and men, in particular, young men and women, more than often fail in judging character when it comes to mating.


This is true, although generally speaking, society does not rescue men who make poor judgements, and they must take responsibility for their decisions.

Women, on the other hand, are far less likely to have to bear the brunt of the consequences of their actions without society coming to their rescue.

thus, they are less likely to evolve their capacity for judgement than men are.

Pain is a powerful teacher, mind you... lol


We don't full develop until the age of 25 you know?


And yet we achieve full reproductive rights at what age now?


But it is a fact that for the vast majority of young people, puberty starts in their tweens


precisely.


It is also a fact that women, as I've stated before, gain the control and full responsibility when they full pregnant, this is just how nature has deemed it, it's a reality.


Except it's not, because the woman can rely on the state to support her children....


Like nature intended?


What laws have been employed to enforce responsibility of men is irrelevent


On the contrary, it is VERY relevant.


it doesn't change those natural roles between men and women, why can you not understand this?


Because it's not true.

How many women are raising their children, financed from taxpayer subsidies?

What part of this do you honestly believe doesn't change "What nature intended"?

You are lying to yourself.


You continue to complain about legal this, legal that


Aren't we in a thread where you are complaining about the laws as well?

Something about abortion?


it sounds to me like you're more disguntled about the fact men are legally bound to take equal responsibility when women actually decide to go ahead with the pregnancy


Which he does not get a say in... yes, that is the problem that I am having here, and frankly i'm baffled that you are unable to empathize with men.

Is it a genetic affliction, that causes you to hate men so much?


than that of real and true concern for the unborn and their future.


It's not *THEIR* unborn, remember?

It belongs wholly to the mother.... remember?


If anything, I think laws requiring men to own up to pregnancies lessens the rate of abortions out there.


Where are the laws that require WOMEN to own up to pregnancies?

Or are you just conveniently forgetting that fact?

And you are wrong, by the way.... This actually increases abortions, because women are less likley to be a good judge of character, and thus consent to unprotected intercourse with men who do not want to help them raise a child.

If their were actual consequences for women's choices, they would be less apt to make such foolish mistakes.


It shows that there is legal support for women who choose to go forward with pregnancy, something you should support if you personally consider yourself pro-life.


I don't consider myself pro-choice, or pro-life....

I am merely arguing this from the standpoint of equality in regards to RIGHTS and RESPONSIBILITIES of parents.

Frankly, I don't give a good [snip] [snip] that women have abortions.... I just think that if THAT is their right, then a man should be free to choose to terminate his connection to that child.

because that would be equitable.



The more I talk to self proclaimed pro-lifers


Your assumption of my perspective is not my responsibility.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by quietlearner
 



sorry I don't remember what page its was or who was the user
but the african american rights and women rights were just mentioned
as examples were changing laws was a good thing


I have paid attention to this thread, but I honestly don't understand how either of these issues are applicable to my argument, or rather the Supreme Court's decision, that abortive medicine is protected medical privacy as defined by the 9th Amendment.
I would really enjoy reading your perspective on this issue. (and I mean really enjoy reading)

The OP wanted to discuss this in terms of civil rights, and I have laid out exactly why this is a civil right, as well as the definition of civil rights and how they are legislated and judicially decided.

I really don't see how you can argue this any longer and maintain a modicum of academic integrity.

I am open to hearing an argument, but at this point, I really want to say both-

Check

and

Mate.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by quietlearner
yes it's my opinion and all you wrote is your opinion


It's not merely my opinion that the woman takes on the full pregnancy and still naturally has control over her body during pregnancy, this is a fact. The woman naturally drives the pregnancy, it doesn't matter what the man thinks in the relationship, the woman is the one that decides what to eat, whether to go forward with the pregnancy, whether to get the abortion. Naturally she is the one with the last decision.

You may personally be of the opinion that the man should have the equal say in this relationship regarding pregnancy, but naturally this is the womans body concerned here. If she doesn't agree, she ultimately controls her body.


we are talking about a pregnancy were the mothers life is not at risk per the doctors
yes the pregnancy will take the 9 month of the mother life


You're not addressing the scenario I answered that you yourself posed, why is that?

Do you or do you not consider those parents murderers, killers, for making the decision to end the life of one of the lesser developed of the conjoint twins in order to let the other on a full life?


its not like the baby will be physically attached to the mom for the rest of her life
why kill the baby?


A fertilized egg is not a baby, it's not a human being, so refering to it in the same manner doesn't magically make it so. Regarding why women just not go through with the pregnancy and put the kids up for adoption once they are born, who are you to judge their circumstances in this matter? Must a rape victim just go through and suffer another 9 months of pregnancy just so that you can satisfy your own personal morality? Who are you to judge all those women in those circumstances? It's none of your business, they need not involve you.

As I said earlier, if you really cared about these pregnancies, about future children, you'd be spending your time supporting single mothers, teens, rape victims, you'd be rallying financial and community support, as opposed to spending all of your time generalizing and criticizing those women in those situations.



maybe not a human being


No, it's not a human being. We're getting somewhere here.


still a human life


There are plenty of things that hold human life. Sperm contains human life, female eggs contain human life, a strand of hair contains human life. Human life is not equal to human being. Human life has potential to become a human being.


so because women got the short stick then they should have all the say?


They already have the say, regardless of the laws out there. Woman naturally take on the pain and physical responsibility of pregnancy, so naturally they also control that pregnancy because they still control their bodies.

What's there not to say? Do you want to force everything to be fair on both sides and make men take part of the pregnancy and in turn the control? Good luck.

Life isn't fair. Why not instead of lecturing people to listen to your own personal standards of morality, you put your support for those mothers who decide to actually go forward with pregnancy? Criticizing and generalizing women out there does nothing to the pro-life cause, you don't bring much in the way of sympathizers to your cause.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:29 PM
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reply to post by ErtaiNaGia
 


Out of curiosity, do you even know why society is held responsible for the financial upbringing of a fatherless child?

I do want you to know that your post gave me a laugh (not the good kind), but I am interested to see if you even know the reason why society is legally obligated to continue helping those "entitled women who live on handouts and milk the system", as you seem to think.

This is all about the law, and so many seem to have strong opnions on this issue, but yet so many are horribly uninformed.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by kyviecaldges
 



Out of curiosity, do you even know why society is held responsible for the financial upbringing of a fatherless child?




Do you?
edit on 24-8-2012 by ErtaiNaGia because: Well, do ya, Punk?



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:42 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Abstain or use good birth control...............yes there are free or low cost birth control centers in America.

Murder is still murder in my book.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by kyviecaldges
 


What you are not understanding is that the op is about changing the law and giving those unborn children the rights that man has denied them through his current unconstitutional laws.

Us "pro-lifers" want the laws changed....you do understand that in America it is we the people that bring about change and laws are not final?

So you can use Roe V Wade and laws as your justification fro murder to absolve you of your guilt...meanwhile some of us will be working to repeal them.
edit on 24-8-2012 by timetothink because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Regarding why women just not go through with the pregnancy and put the kids up for adoption once they are born, who are you to judge their circumstances in this matter?


This I absolutely do not understand.

First off - - a bunch of cells is not a baby. It is a "potential". A potential to mature and develop into a living being.

Do you relieve yourself of guilt - - - to bring this potential to a fully formed being - - - then hand it off to some stranger to raise via adoption?

"As long as I did my part and gave it life - - - who cares what happens next?"

Really weird - - and totally backward.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by Annee
 


Abstain or use good birth control...............yes there are free or low cost birth control centers in America.

Murder is still murder in my book.


Oh - - the holier-then-thou self-righteous speaks.

I'm sorry birth control doesn't work for everyone. Or - - if you throw it up.
edit on 24-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:57 PM
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reply to post by ErtaiNaGia
 



No, it's not an unfair generalization,


It is an unfair generalization to claim that all women lack the judgement of a good mate, it's a false claim. You have absolutely nothing to back it up with, you just decided to paint a broad brush and now you're going to stubbornly stick by it.



This is true, although generally speaking,


So now you're generally speaking, eh?


Women, on the other hand, are far less likely to have to bear the brunt of the consequences of their actions


If those women decide to go forward with the pregnancy, they end up bearing most of the brunt, men in many cases walk off from the partnership, they are not physically bound. Take african american communities for example. So you're saying in one breath that abortion is unfair to the man because they don't have much say, but in another breath you want the woman to be in the disadvantaged position and suffer through the pregnancy? And child support laws are not solid, many men get away with not paying child support.



Except it's not, because the woman can rely on the state to support her children


You're assuming that women can always rely on the state to support her children, but this will not always be the case. Ironically many of the very same pro-lifers out there and in office are attempting to cut those support programmes those women, single mothers, more than often need.


Like nature intended?


Yes. What, do you want nature to give part of the pregnancy cycle to men so that they can have part control over that process? How will you go about making that arrangment? I'm just very curious you know.


On the contrary, it is VERY relevant.


You may feel it's relevant, but it isn't. What laws are out there will not change the fact that the woman ultimately has the last say with what she chooses to do with her body. If there is a law requiring woman regardless to go forward with pregnancy, women will still find other ways and sources to abort (crossing state lines, national lines etc). What laws are out there requiring men to pay child support is irrelevant, if the woman chooses not to go forward with the pregnancy, it's her body. There's not much more to say.


Aren't we in a thread where you are complaining about the laws as well?

Something about abortion?


We're complaining about civil rights for the unborn, fertilized eggs. You can't give fertilized eggs civil rights in the same as that of human beings, the circumstances they face are vastly different. This is something many posters here don't seem to understand, or don't care to.


It's not *THEIR* unborn, remember?

It belongs wholly to the mother....


Yes, and maybe some of those woman would appreciate that support? Maybe those women faced with those decisions may opt not to go forward with abortions because of the many pro-life organisations and individuals out there willing to support them for the sake of that child? Ultimately it is *THEIR* decision to make, but by rallying behind those women who opt to go forward with pregnancy, you can convert and bring forward more women who are concerned about going forward with their pregnancies. This would be an effective way to curb abortions don't you think? Instead of spending your time generalizing what women are incapable of, or criticizing them and their situations.


Frankly, I don't give a good [snip] [snip] that women have abortions


The don't post in a thread about it. Simple.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by kyviecaldges
 


I was raised by a single mother that worked at a shoe company in the office.

Happiest years of my life.

We lived in a little, ugly apartment that she kept very clean. We walked blocks and blocks to catch multiple buses and I had so so clothes but being in the inner city of St. Louis I fit in with everyone else and had it better than most.

I was never hungry, my mother worked very hard and left me with the nuns before and after school.

I was a accident, a product of a love affair with a mother at 43 who thought she was going through menopause.

Didn't encounter problems until she died and I went to live with my sister and her husband and went to a upper middle class Catholic School that had snotty, bratty, mean, spoiled kids.

My mother made me feel loved, wanted and cherished...................so I was happy until February 23, 1962. The day I watched her casket lowered into the ground.

That was 50 years ago and yes I've had a life many tell me I could write a best selling novel on.

Not a day goes by that I don't miss her hugs, kisses and telling me how much she loved me and wanted me.

It's all about the love - I've been rich and I've been poor.

When you have love - love does truly conquer all.

Again abortion is closing the doors after the horse has gotten out.

Either use multiple birth control or abstain.......................ohhhhhhhhhh but in this society abstaining, not getting instant gratification is frowned upon because we have become a society of spoiled, selfish brats.

The act of sex has become like having a ice cream, watching a good movie or other fun past time.

Sex was meant to be a sacred bonding between two people.

Animals &*ck. People are suppose to make love.

Big difference.

Again, what about courting, getting to know the person first, finding out if you have stuff in common.

Gosh to pick a stranger up and let them touch and get personal with me after having had a real relationship sounds sucky bad.

You make a baby, be responsible and suffer the consequences.

Now, while being a single mother, my understanding is my father (who was married to someone else) paid for my cleft palate surgery and while not being spoiled, I never wanted for anything.

I told my sons, you play - you pay.

The oldest one is paying, 40% of his paycheck and joint custody means he gets to see his daughter when mom feels like complying.

Thank God she didn't abort our grand daughter like she did the first child she had (not with my son).

Before I got married I was very very careful - and I'm quite fertile. Always used a condom and spermicide.

After my third I had my tubes removed................yes removed because I was afraid they would become untied or have a tubal pregnancy.

You can, once you have one, two kids, get sterilized......................loved it, no big deal.

My girlfriend is 45 and never wanted marriage or kids so she had her tubes tied - she has had multiple partners and no pregnancies. But she knew she never wanted any children.
edit on 24-8-2012 by ofhumandescent because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by kyviecaldges
 


I was raised by a single mother that worked at a shoe company in the office.


I was raised by a single mother who contracted polio in the 1952 epidemic - - - and her mother (Nana) - - - because my bio-dad couldn't handle having a disabled wife and 3 kids under 7 - - - so he found another woman who was sympathetic.

And to top it off - - - I was born in a Trailer Park in Compton CA. Yes - - does that make me white trailer trash?

Big Friggin Deal.


edit on 24-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by Annee
 


Abstain or use good birth control...............


Simply telling kids these days to "abstain" from sex will not do anything to change the cycle of teen pregnancies or abortions. This is the 21st century, not the 19th century. Abortions are becoming more available, easily accessable, technologically convenient, sex is something more common in the media. Yes, we can teach about birth control, protection, we can also educate about pregnancy and the responsibilities that come with it, but I believe what is fundamental to curbing the cycle of abortions is support both on the local/community and federal level. Support for women who go forward with pregnancy, support for young couples. This is the key, but pro-lifers don't seem to concerned with this, they just like to fling their morals around and all the while rally to cut social programmes. For many this isn't about the future of children, rather, enforcing their own cultural and moral codes.

Where do you stand ofhumandescent?



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:11 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


No, you are not white trailer trash Annee - you are special, God felt the world needed you so you came into being.

And here you are.

Those of us who have had it the roughest end up the wisest.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:12 PM
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reply to post by ErtaiNaGia
 


You could have very easily answered the question by saying, "No, I have no idea why society is legally obligated to provide assistance to fatherless children".

No offense, but I am going to move on to another poster.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by Annee
 


Abstain or use good birth control...............


Simply telling kids these days to "abstain" from sex will not do anything to change the cycle of teen pregnancies or abortions. This is the 21st century, not the 19th century. Abortions are becoming more available, easily accessable, technologically convenient, sex is something more common in the media.


No kidding.

My youngest daughter (actually age 40) is a "Fertile Mirtle" - - - she uses birth control pills - - condoms - - spermicide. And she still got pregnant - - TWICE.

Seriously - - should she apologize that she doesn't want to live the sexless life of a Nun?

Her last child is now 4 1/2. I am helping raise him - - because his daddy died of Cancer before he was a month old.

OK. Let's here from all the "holier-then-thou self-righteous" now.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by Annee
 


No, you are not white trailer trash Annee - you are special, God felt the world needed you so you came into being.

And here you are.

Those of us who have had it the roughest end up the wisest.


Thank you.

But please - - leave God out of it.

Let me tell you - - - my earliest memories were OBE's. I wanted to leave this world. In one OBE - - a tall man in a long white robe came to me - - - and demanded I stay here in the physical world. It was not my choice.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Well, one difference is that it is born. Once it's born it fits a legal criteria for Civil Rights protection.

I've ready stated in this thread, a few times, that life is a cycle.

The chemical reaction that occurs during the unity of a living cell, the ovum, and the living cell, the sperm, isn't any more magical a moment as when it attaches to the uterus or moves through the birth canal and into it's "own life."

If you want to know when the "soul" enters a body, ask a priest. It's all a matter of opinion.

I'm here to defend the rights and autonomy of the woman who is alive, and without her body acting as a host, the zygote would not be in question. Her rights supercede any rights that people might want to bestow on the unborn.

Do you also oppose hormonal birth control, IUD's and the morning after pill?

I did not ask about a soul, I asked about the fundimental difference between a "born" individual and an "unborn" individual. What makes a human that is born at 8 months but one that is not at 9months? I don't believe in magiv so there is nothing magical at the end of the birth canal that makes a human form a non-human. Really the only arguement you ahve is "because I can."



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by ofhumandescent
 



I was raised by a single mother that worked at a shoe company in the office.

Happiest years of my life.

We lived in a little, ugly apartment that she kept very clean. We walked blocks and blocks to catch multiple buses and I had so so clothes but being in the inner city of St. Louis I fit in with everyone else and had it better than most.

I was never hungry, my mother worked very hard and left me with the nuns before and after school.

I was a accident, a product of a love affair with a mother at 43 who thought she was going through menopause.

Didn't encounter problems until she died and I went to live with my sister and her husband and went to a upper middle class Catholic School that had snotty, bratty, mean, spoiled kids.

My mother made me feel loved, wanted and cherished...................so I was happy until February 23, 1962. The day I watched her casket lowered into the ground...

(continued)

...Before I got married I was very very careful - and I'm quite fertile. Always used a condom and spermicide.

After my third I had my tubes removed................yes removed because I was afraid they would become untied or have a tubal pregnancy.

You can, once you have one, two kids, get sterilized......................loved it, no big deal.

My girlfriend is 45 and never wanted marriage or kids so she had her tubes tied - she has had multiple partners and no pregnancies. But she knew she never wanted any children.


And how exactly does any of this change the fact that abortive medicine is a protected Ninth Amendment civil right?

How does any of this matter in any way, shape or form to the fact that the court found the medical practice of abortion to be a matter of medical privacy for women?

I don't really get how any of your story applies to the nuts and bolts of this argument. AT ALL.

I understand that you feel morally superior to women who have chosen to medically abort pregnancies, but that is all that I am getting.

And I gotta tell you that it is REAL hard for me not to type what I really want to type right now in response to this, but I get the feeling that I don't have to do that.

edit on 24/8/2012 by kyviecaldges because: (no reason given)




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