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Abortion as seen through a perspective of civil rights.

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posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


It is astounding to see the crassness of some of the people in this thread.

The bottom line is that some people have no dignity, no sense of responsibility and are completely self involved. They do not care about anything but themselves.




posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by beezzer
 


It is astounding to see the crassness of some of the people in this thread.

The bottom line is that some people have no dignity, no sense of responsibility and are completely self involved. They do not care about anything but themselves.



What the hell exactly does that mean.

Let me tell you - - - I'd rather rid myself of some cells - - - then hand a living being off to some stranger - - - with a "potluck's" chance they are treated right.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! But - - - it relieves me of any guilt - - - letting those cells mature into a living being.


edit on 24-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:34 PM
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reply to post by timetothink
 



So you can use Roe V Wade and laws as your justification fro murder to absolve you of your guilt...meanwhile some of us will be working to repeal them.


You cannot legislate a civil right after it is incorporated by the US Supreme Court.

IT CAN NOT BE DONE.

Go ahead and keep on trying and you will get the same result as you have seen for the past 40 years.

Nada. Zilch.

Nothing.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:38 PM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 



It is an unfair generalization to claim that all women lack the judgement of a good mate,



No it is not..... it is completely fair, and you even admitted as much in the post that I was responding to.

You stated that ALL humans have poor judgement, does this somehow not apply to females?


it's a false claim. You have absolutely nothing to back it up with, you just decided to paint a broad brush and now you're going to stubbornly stick by it.


You already know that I am right.... because you admitted as much in your last post (The one that I responded to)

Humans are crappy judges of character... and it takes falling on your [snip] a few times to wise up.

Something that women are GENERALLY less likely to do, because society usually cushions their fall.


So now you're generally speaking, eh?


Do you have a specific problem, with generalizations?

and yes, I am generalizing, I stated as much... whats your problem?


So you're saying in one breath that abortion is unfair to the man because they don't have much say, but in another breath you want the woman to be in the disadvantaged position and suffer through the pregnancy?


You are not fully comprehending my position on the matter.

I am not telling you which choice that society has to, or should make.

All I am saying, is that if abortion is LEGAL, then the male should be free to walk away without legal repercussions.

because that would be fair.


And child support laws are not solid, many men get away with not paying child support.


And many women get away without having to birth their child.... because they kill it.

Talk about taking responsibility for ones Sexual Actions..... and try not to ignore the woman's *RESPONSIBILITY* in this matter.


You're assuming that women can always rely on the state to support her children, but this will not always be the case.


Generally speaking, it is.

Sure, maybe you have some outliers, but the vast majority have that state enforced safety net.

Again, what is your problem with generalizations?


Ironically many of the very same pro-lifers out there and in office are attempting to cut those support programmes those women, single mothers, more than often need.


What does this have to do with our discussion?


Yes. What, do you want nature to give part of the pregnancy cycle to men so that they can have part control over that process? How will you go about making that arrangment? I'm just very curious you know.


I was talking about when the government sends men with guns to take money from a man, and give it to a woman....

Would you like to explain how you got from what *I* was saying, to what *YOU HEARD*?


You may feel it's relevant, but it isn't.


And I suppose that you are rubber, and I am glue... eh?

Look, if this is the road that you want to walk down, then by all means.... let us take a journey of enlightenment.


What laws are out there will not change the fact that the woman ultimately has the last say with what she chooses to do with her body.


Explain to me how HIS wallet, is now a part of HER body?


If there is a law requiring woman regardless to go forward with pregnancy, women will still find other ways and sources to abort


Did you bring this up for any particular reason?

I never debated that particular point....


What laws are out there requiring men to pay child support is irrelevant


Not for the men, that you still regard as irrelevant.

WHY DO YOU HATE MEN?


if the woman chooses not to go forward with the pregnancy, it's her body. There's not much more to say.


Explain to me how his wallet becomes her property?

And how you justify that?


Yes, and maybe some of those woman would appreciate that support?


Since when is YOUR BODY, *MY RESPONSIBILITY?*


Maybe those women faced with those decisions may opt not to go forward with abortions because of the many pro-life organisations and individuals out there willing to support them for the sake of that child?


This is irrelevant to the discussion.


This would be an effective way to curb abortions don't you think?


That's not an issue that I particularly care about, actually.




Instead of spending your time generalizing what women are incapable of, or criticizing them and their situations.


Are you pretending to know me?

Because I hear all of this talk, about you believing that I am a "Pro-Lifer" and whatnot... you keep thinking that you have my perspective "Nailed" or whatever.

and to be bluntly and perfectly honest, you haven't the foggiest idea what I am actually saying, because your emotions have overridden your reason, and you are not actually reading my words.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:38 PM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 



Frankly, I don't give a good [snip] [snip] that women have abortions



The don't post in a thread about it. Simple.


IT is my right to express my perspective on the subject.

Is it your wish to deny me my rights?



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by kyviecaldges
 



You could have very easily answered the question by saying, "No, I have no idea why society is legally obligated to provide assistance to fatherless children".

No offense, but I am going to move on to another poster.


How about, instead, you explain why you think this is so?

You know, like you actually comprehend the subject that you brought up?



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


You are making the assumption that life begins at conception. I don't believe that. I believe that a child in the womb is not alive until it is born. So....what do you say to people that believe as I do? Get over it?

I tried to look at this issue from a "civil rights" perspective but I have found that I cannot. Comparing the collective struggles of the races(or the other things you mentioned) to the individual struggle of a woman having an abortion does not make sense to me. Personally, I think it is insulting to all the people that were involved. These groups of people have had to suffer through much to even begin to get the wheels of change turning. A fetus in a womb cannot understand such concepts. Some people say they fight for those that cannot fight for themselves. I don't buy that. I see it merely as a tool some people use to improve their own self worth.

This abortion issue is not related in any way, whatsoever, to the examples you provided. I see on one side self-righteous tyrants attempting to force their will on those that disagree with them. On the other side I see a woman that, for whatever reason, wants to terminate her pregnancy because she feels that is the best course of action. I support the woman. No one has the right to tell people what to do with their bodies. Even if some people believe that women are committing murder. It is merely a belief that is ultimately irrelevant.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:48 PM
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Attention!!!!!



This thread has become non-stop bickering.
If it continues.....it will be closed.....as apparently....the discussion of the topic has exhausted itself.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by beezzer
 


It is astounding to see the crassness of some of the people in this thread.

The bottom line is that some people have no dignity, no sense of responsibility and are completely self involved. They do not care about anything but themselves.



What the hell exactly does that mean.

Let me tell you - - - I'd rather rid myself of some cells - - - then hand a living being off to some stranger - - - with a "potluck's" chance they are treated right.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! But - - - it relieves me of any guilt - - - letting those cells mature into a living being.


edit on 24-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)
[/quote

I meant exactly what I said. I didn't stutter.

The easiest thing for you to do is "rid" yourself of some "cells", as opposed to handing the living being off to a stranger. How about we as women start taking responsibility for OUR actions and actually birth and raise our children ourselves?? I know, I know, that is quite a novel idea....

The right to LIFE, liberty and the prusuit of happiness. Obviously those rights only apply to the fetus with the responsible parents.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:07 PM
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reply to post by newsoul
 



The right to LIFE, liberty and the prusuit of happiness. Obviously those rights only apply to the fetus with the responsible parents.


A fetus does not have rights.

The Roe decision already settled this matter.

As long as the fetus in question is in the first two trimesters, it is not viewed as an individual with rights.

It is viewed as a part of the woman. It is medically most likened to a parasite.

You may not like this, believe me there are several things about government and law that I do not like; however, this is the law.
This is what was decided in the Roe v. Wade case that I keep trying to explain to people and you seem to want to deny it like it doesn't matter, but it does.
I don't really have anything invested in this argument.

I don't really care either way.

Granted, I generally take a position of pro-choice, simply because I don't like the government telling me what to do.
But either way you view this, the government has decided for you both the perception of the viability of a fetus and the medical practice of abortion as a civil right.

Unless anyone has anything else to bring to the table, then the mod is right.

This has been settled and it will only wind up with more opinions and people telling one another that I am right and you are wrong.
This has been decided folks.

Read the majority opinion of the US Supreme Court here.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by newsoul

The easiest thing for you to do is "rid" yourself of some "cells", as opposed to handing the living being off to a stranger. How about we as women start taking responsibility for OUR actions and actually birth and raise our children ourselves?? I know, I know, that is quite a novel idea....

The right to LIFE, liberty and the prusuit of happiness. Obviously those rights only apply to the fetus with the responsible parents.


NO - - it is the law: Abortion as seen through a perspective of civil rights.

As a 65 year old grandmother - - I support the law - - which I had the RIGHT - - to use.

I have no interest in your sentimental crap.




edit on 24-8-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:10 PM
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Originally posted by kyviecaldges
reply to post by newsoul
 



The right to LIFE, liberty and the prusuit of happiness. Obviously those rights only apply to the fetus with the responsible parents.


A fetus does not have rights.

The Roe decision already settled this matter.

As long as the fetus in question is in the first two trimesters, it is not viewed as an individual with rights.

It is viewed as a part of the woman. It is medically most likened to a parasite.

You may not like this, believe me there are several things about government and law that I do not like; however, this is the law.
This is what was decided in the Roe v. Wade case that I keep trying to explain to people and you seem to want to deny it like it doesn't matter, but it does.
I don't really have anything invested in this argument.

I don't really care either way.

Granted, I generally take a position of pro-choice, simply because I don't like the government telling me what to do.
But either way you view this, the government has decided for you both the perception of the viability of a fetus and the medical practice of abortion as a civil right.

Unless anyone has anything else to bring to the table, then the mod is right.

This has been settled and it will only wind up with more opinions and people telling one another that I am right and you are wrong.
This has been decided folks.

Read the majority opinion of the US Supreme Court here.


So if legality equals morality, you wouldn't have a problem with slavery and Jim Crow then. After all, both issues were determined legal and supported by the Supreme Court.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:12 PM
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and if a man in a marriage wants to have sex all the time then he should be aware that sex can bring a baby and fully plan accordingly, it's called responsibility something every good husband should have regarding his family
reply to post by quietlearner
 


doesn't matter how "responsible" he is!!! once one partner in the marriage decides that they don't wish to take on another child, well, if the other partner can't accept living with abstinance till menopause hits, well, such people have no business preaching abstinance to anyone...
and I will tell you right now, there is no birth control that is 100% effective.
considering that we now have women in jail for simply having miscarriages (oh, of course she much of done something wrong with intent to kill it!!) because of laws that have already been passes in some states,, to protect the unborn...well, I got to say....I wouldn't be taking the chance of that birth control failing, there's a possibility of you ending up in jail, or worse, finding yourself being denied medical attention that you need, for the sake of the baby of course.....
abstinance kind of is the best choice~ which mean the men better be able to accept it..



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:14 PM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 



So if legality equals morality, you wouldn't have a problem with slavery and Jim Crow then. After all, both issues were determined legal and supported by the Supreme Court.


That is a loaded question and irrelevant to the legality of the topic.

If you want to discuss the morality of abortion, then have at it.

I don't believe in legislating morality.

We have a horrible history in successfully doing that very thing.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:14 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Has your daughter thought of being sterilized?

She now has two children.

Wow, I will only have one grand daughter and get to see her very rarely.

You have two and get to help raise them................u2u me and call me over, I love babies.

I was also very fertile - and after just a couple years had to stop the pill because of leg clouts.

You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder and I can see you have had it rough.

Dealing with losing a loved one is never easy and having additional burden of raising grandchildren is doubly hard.

Please do not call me holier than thou...............I know I am no better than you.

We both have had it rough.

The thought of one of my grandchildren being aborted and thrown into a trash can makes me want to cry.

But then, I truly feel the life is in the blood and a "fetus has a blood stream at 4 weeks".

www.bible.ca...

This will be my last reply to you as I have tried on numerous occasions to be friendly and you have met my olive branch with a chainsaw.



Choose life in order that you may live. - Deuteronomy 30:19



The Bible doesn't call abortion, "abortion" but the Bible does address it. Consider these verses to start: "Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:4-5).

This passage declares that God Himself said that He "formed" and "knew" the baby "in the womb... before" the baby was "born".

"What then shall I do when God rises up? When He punishes, how shall I answer Him? Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One fashion us in the womb?" (Job 31:14-15) This passage affirms that "God... made" the baby "in the womb".

"For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works, and that my soul knows very well." (Psalm 139:13-14) The "You" in this passage of course refers to God, who "formed" the baby's "inward parts".

And Luke 1:15 states that John the Baptist will be "filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb", which means that the baby in the womb has a soul for the Holy Spirit to fill. Abortion activists often attempt heroic acrobatics in logic to try to dismiss these Bible verses, which indicate that abortion kills babies whom God "formed", "sanctified" and "made" in the womb and in whom the Holy Spirit may already reside, and is therefore a murderous rebellion against God. The "choice" pregnant women have is between keeping or giving up their babies for adoption, not murdering the "wonderfully made marvelous ... works" of God. It is unconscionable that 1.3 million unborn and even born babies are murdered annually in America.

To put this atrocity into perspective, 1.3 million is even more than the number of Jews the Nazis gassed annually during the Holocaust. Source and rest of article: www.godvoter.org...

edit on 24-8-2012 by ofhumandescent because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:17 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Annee,

I know that you are a proponent of civil rights, so tell me, if we are all created equal, why don't we ALL have a right to life?



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by ofhumandescent
 



Has your daughter thought of being sterilized?


And don't forget to have your pets spayed or neutered!

Goodnight folks!!
You have been a great audience.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:19 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 


At this point you are floundering so bad you are making up statements for me. I never said a baby will turn into a fish.

Since your the one who can't understand embryonic and dna development, I will just leave it at that. Since other than ad hominem attacks, you have yet to supply any information of any use to your arguement or mine.

I am still waiting for an apology to me, and at this point to all women, for my point of saying that women suffer at the hands of abuse. Because millions of incidents of domestic violence and rape is just a hyperbole to you.

Arguing with you is like watching a parakeet attack its own reflection. When you actually have something of value to add, maybe I will pay attention again.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:21 PM
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reply to post by EndlessFire
 


Read the thread and maybe you will understand the options.



posted on Aug, 24 2012 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


This campaign to redefine a person to extend to the unborn, is quite the rabbit hole. In so doing many forms of birth control become tools of murder and woman loose autonomy and becomes a second class citizen.


You bring up an interesting point. You do have to be born to become a citizen. Isn't that exactly what the right has been trying to do for the past year, keep women in the kitchen and pregnant. Next thing you know, they won't be allowed to attend college again when they are engaged or married.



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