Twin Ancient Cultures On Opposite Sides Of The Pacific

Originally posted by Gorman91

Right, because you're right, and anyone else is wrong.

No, just you.

Sure, you're always right, right? Can't be wrong?

Well of course not. It just doesn't happen frequently, that's all.

OH WAIT. Google Street view, and user-uploaded photography....

Yeah, I am aware of clicking on those, yet there not always the best photos.

Oh well, maybe you should rethink your life if you are that wrong.

But I thought I was always right? Now I am wrong? Make up your mind my good man!

Then again, you could just keep being self righteous and always right.

Ok got it now, I am always right again.

It's great when the only one you have to prove is yourself.

Wow! You're really laying down some knowledge there bud. LMAO! I am not trying to prove anything, it's you who has been trying, but who just keeps on failing.

Oh come on, don't get all weird. It was never about me, but about what you and I disagreed on concerning the Ancient sites. It's no big deal, lighten up my friend. Don't get all sore at the Beaver Wally, it's nothing personal. ~$heopleNation

reply to post by SheopleNation


You can't tell the difference between cultures.

That's what we disagree with.

Now if you can explain to me how a bunch of savages sacrificing prisoners to lizard gods in the sky and enslaving their fellow man are the same people who mastered mathematics, sciences, architecture, and fine arts, be my guest

I maintain that all logic demands the found people were not the same type of culture that built the cities.

Originally posted by Gorman91
You can't tell the difference between cultures.

Oh really? I think by judging all your replies to everyone in this thread, it is YOU, not me, who assumes that you know it all.

That's what we disagree with.

Yeah, I know.

Now if you can explain to me how a bunch of savages sacrificing prisoners to lizard gods in the sky and enslaving their fellow man are the same people who mastered mathematics, sciences, architecture, and fine arts, be my guest

Sure I can. All you had to do was ask?

Well, Let me just say that very intelligent cultures from the past throughout the World practiced sacrifice or brutal violence and worshiped various gods. How about The Persians, Greeks, Romans to just name a few. There are many, many more.

I maintain that all logic demands the found people were not the same type of culture that built the cities.

Well, there is always the alternative theory that the technology was given to them by an Alien race. Unfortunately, the lack of evidence throws a monkey wrench into proving that possibility at the moment. ~$heopleNation

reply to post by SheopleNation

Well, Let me just say that very intelligent cultures from the past throughout the World practiced sacrifice or brutal violence and worshiped various gods. How about The Persians, Greeks, Romans to just name a few. There are many, many more.

...while they were collapsing or early in their primitive history.

reply to post by Gorman91


Wrong again, and suggesting that response represents all 3 of those Empires that I mentioned is nothing short of unbelievable. I mean, How can I have a historical discussion with you when you say something full of so much drivel Gorman? Honestly, I am not trying to be rude to you, but you're in error again my friend.

Oh, I see you edited that statement. Very wise.

Listen, How about we focus on just one for now, ok? The Republic was not formed in Rome until about 500 BC. Rome fell around 476 AD but really over decades of barbarian invasions, political corruption and spreading the Empire too thin. There was worse organized brutality long before it collapsed.

You know what, just forget it. Why should I even bother after what you just said? I know that you're a smart guy by the way.

Let me suggest that you study up on some of Edward Gibbon's work though.

Anyway, we are getting off topic here. You never responded to the alternative Alien theory, thoughts? ~$heopleNation

reply to post by SheopleNation


Well no, primitive or collapsing is pretty much the only times people do human sacrificing. I said collapsing at first, but collapsing is a return to primitive, so it's the same.

You're trying to appease to emotion. Fortunately I react the opposite. When people try to appease my emotions, they turn off.

Once more. Human sacrifice only happens with primitives or collapsing societies. The culture that was found by the Spaniards was not the same culture that the cities they were in were built in.

If all you want to do is appease to emotion, I invite you to head on over to the rant forum.

Originally posted by Gorman91
Well no, primitive or collapsing is pretty much the only times people do human sacrificing. I said collapsing at first, but collapsing is a return to primitive, so it's the same.

Sorry for the delay, had to eat dinner.

Yeah, you said that after you edited your original statement, which said that it only occured during their fall, and apparently that and your new edited theory applies to all 3! LMAO! Nothing short of delusional buddy, come on.

So what you're saying is that in between the primitive and collapse, that no organized violence or sacrifice occured in any of the 3 Empires mentioned above at any time, correct? Well guess what that means? You don't have any idea whatsoever about what you're talking about. Concerning this latest subject that is, just to be clear.

You're trying to appease to emotion. Fortunately I react the opposite. When people try to appease my emotions, they turn off.

Yeah, I noticed that. I guess (in your own words) being born evil and thinking of killing people, well yeah, that could tend to cause that result. Unfortuantely for you, you made the mistake of believing that you could use your condescending bully tactics and manipulation to somehow out wit me and break my will. For whatever reason, I don't know.

Well let me telll you something Gorman, it will never happen with this cat. I am too quick up on my paws to get caught up with your flaws.

Once more. Human sacrifice only happens with primitives or collapsing societies. The culture that was found by the Spaniards was not the same culture that the cities they were in were built in.

And I suggested an alternative Alien theory which keeps us on the topic at hand, yet you completely ignore it and come back with this "appease your emotions" mindless drivel. You know how I translate that? = You're unwilling to meet another human being half way. You're unreasonable. It's like the saying goes, Some men you just can't reach. That applies to you my good man.

If all you want to do is appease to emotion, I invite you to head on over to the rant forum.

All I wanted to do was have a discussion with someone intelligent about the subject of the thread. It interests me. I could care less who is right or wrong. If I am wrong, I have no problem whatsoever being a stand up guy. You, on the other hand have made it perfectly clear that you have no intention whatsoever to be reasonable.

I am not going anywhere guy. I certainly have no interest in "appeasing your emotion". All I said was that I know that you're a smart guy by reading your posts here at ATS. And you like Ron Paul, so that's a plus as well. But doesn't excuse you from your arrogance.

Take it as you will. Maybe you're just having a bad day, and I understand if that's the case. If I am wrong, and this is how you always are, then good luck with that attitude in this already hard enough life to live.

Oh and Uh, Feel free to respond to the alternative Alien theory I mentioned before bro. ~$heopleNation

reply to post by SheopleNation


a fall is a return to primitive times. It's the same.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the most part yes.

Yeah, I noticed that. I guess (in your own words) being born evil and thinking of killing people, well yeah, that could tend to cause that result. Unfortuantely for you, you made the mistake of believing that you could use your condescending bully tactics and manipulation to somehow out wit me and break my will. For whatever reason, I don't know. Well let me telll you something Gorman, it will never happen with this cat. I am too quick up on my paws to get caught up with your flaws.

Cool story bro.

And I suggested an alternative Alien theory which keeps us on the topic at hand, yet you completely ignore it and come back with this "appease your emotions" mindless drivel. You know how I translate that? = You're unwilling to meet another human being half way. You're unreasonable. It's like the saying goes, Some men you just can't reach. That applies to you my good man.

I don't compromise to wild speculation without proof.

All I wanted to do was have a discussion with someone intelligent about the subject of the thread. It interests me. I could care less who is right or wrong. If I am wrong, I have no problem whatsoever being a stand up guy. You, on the other hand have made it perfectly clear that you have no intention whatsoever to be reasonable.

So long you lack proof, I shall be unreasonable with you.

reply to post by Gorman91


Im not saying anything about your parents, but influence starts when your in the belly of the mother, either they had lots of fight, maybe they were stressed out, so that influenced the way you were born, im not gonna go into it, cause i already had an argument with one fellow here on ats about his, but influence on the child starts as soon as the child is a fetus "thoughts, feelings, sounds, ect" are some of those influences.

Just because they are defending them selfs does not mean they hate the person they are after, just instincts, if animals felt hate, and revenge, they would have gotten rid of us humans before we invented a spear.

If you did think about killing someone, did you ever think where those thoughts came from? or do u just take it as it goes?

Genetic proof? im one of them, so is my whole family, were all mixed, some european, jewish, and asian suprisingly, well lots of european influence in my family, and that came from generations ago. it's not only genetic, i mean life style also, Russians eat imported food, drive imported cars and wear imported clothing, its been like that since the Vikings came.

Well the last one im not stating it as fact, but you bring up a good point, 10 000plus years they would have had to have some sort of transportation in order to get across the sea, if they had that, then they were advanced.

reply to post by XaniMatriX


That's a common thought of means, but it's mostly been proven false. The human brain doesn't even become self aware until a few years after birth, so everything from classical music to arguments all get processes as, basically, raw vibratory data. A new born has to learn what it means. That's why they say it's a good idea to start teaching sign language as soon as possible, because it's the only think that doesn't require baby steps to learn. For hearing, first the brain has to learn that what it's feeling as vibration is sound. For sight, first the brain has to learn that what it's sensing is the world around it. For feeling, that's something it's been doing since the first nerves.

Well yea animals would have if they were numerous enough, could communicate with each other, and organize attacks. They never gained that intellectual ability. Hence why an animal that's been abused, if it's intelligent enough, can only hate alone. It cannot get other animals to hate with it. Take a look at abused dogs for a good example. They don't get their packs to hate. If they've been abused, they keep it to themselves. Like how some will be afraid of men if some drunk abusive father abused them.

I was a kid. Kids think up things, because they can. I thought about ways to kill people just as much of how to build things, how to drive a car when I got older, and which power ranger was cooler. There was no "taking it as it goes" or wondering where the ideas came from. It was creativity. Sometimes my mind wondered what the world would be like if the sky was purple, and other times what would it be like if a wrench fell from a 4 story building onto a person's head. And yes, ways to kill people fall just as much into creativity of a child's mind as does art, music, and tv.

No, I mean like earlier when it was posted that the genes in Native Americans can be found mainly in Asia. What proof do you have of the same between Vikings and Russians? Bare in mind we have lots of proof of where the Vikings went, like Red hair in Sicily and village remains in North Canada. What proof, genetically or otherwise, do you have that Russians and Vikings worked together.

I don't see why the ability to travel long distances makes you advanced. Early man traveled the world on nothing by horse and log boat. It's quite likely 12,000 years ago this civilization were only as advanced as Renaissance culture. The fact you can build a civilization great and powerful does not demand you are more advanced than modern man.

reply to post by Gorman91


Gorman, I expected alot more from you than that brother. That's too bad.

Anyway, Repeating more mindless drivel while ignoring the question that I asked you which is connected to the topic of the thread is nothing more than, well, I guess just more mindless drivel I suppose.

Now you want to demand "facts or evidence" after all of your former reckless speculations yourself? Well then, there is nothing more I can explain to you. Now you changed the rules in order to give a fake foundation to your original junk yard assumptions right, eh bro?

And no, That is not at all a feeble attempt at "emotional appeasement". To be quite honest, That is what Han Solo and I would call.............delusions of grandeur my good man.

Sheesh, Why so grouchy? ~$heopleNation

reply to post by SheopleNation


Speculating that people pulling the hearts out of prisoners and worshiping sky lizards as they tried to deal with failing crops is not the same culture as the wealthy intelligent researchers and builders that made those cities centuries prior is not even remotely comparable to "mindless drivel" and "wild speculation" that would be aliens coming down and enlightening them on math and science.


Sorry, but you're mixing oranges and apples. There is nothing to be said for your wild speculation. There is quite a lot to say that the found culture is not the foundation culture of the civilization that we now call the Maya and Aztec.

Once again, for the umpteenth time, proof, or it's just wild speculation on your part.

reply to post by Gorman91


"Well yea animals would have if they were numerous enough, could communicate with each other, and organize attacks. They never gained that intellectual ability."
Animals can communicate with each other, and there are more of them on this planet there are humans, and you never watched wolfs hunt? they organize that pack like a military strike.

Kids do think of things all the time, i dont disagree with that, but trust me when i say this, no school or "education" system will teach anyone how to recognize their thoughts and its intentions, it is not our fault, just the way the system was put together. So most thoughts are actually just random noise to keep the brain asleep.

Well wtf, how in the world am i supposed to do that, or anyone else on this planet, unless i can travel back in time, i cannot give you Proof. But that's what I was taught in Russia, history lessons there are nothing like they are in America, Russians do not hold anything back, not like Canada, came here and they tried to teach me that Canada is the biggest country in the world

Travel is a big deal when it comes to being advanced, people today still travel on canoes, does that make us primitive? no right. 12 000 years, if u go past that, there is not much evidence anyone will be able to find, even if they had computers, you would never find one after 12 thousand years, all we would find, and which we did, our foundations to structures, and stones, no concrete or metal or plastic would last 12 thousand years( and when i say last, i mean they wont even hold the shape anymore), unless its a material yet to be discovered by man.

Originally posted by XaniMatriX
no concrete or metal or plastic would last 12 thousand years( and when i say last, i mean they wont even hold the shape anymore), unless its a material yet to be discovered by man.

Can you please tell me about Banded Iron Formations and how old they are?

How about bones,do they last, even as mineral replacements?

There are many variables involved in preservation or lack of...

reply to post by XaniMatriX


They can communicate yes, that was wrong of me to say. But they cannot communicate complex thought. Maybe a few species can to some degree, but they only display it's use in simple things, not like revolution lol.

Animals are of course more numerous than humans, but the intelligent ones are not. Most life on Earth are simple species.

You mentioned wolves for example. There's only a few hundred thousand of them left. And they certainly don't know how to use guns or organize wars. They organize hunts for common need. They don't have the mental capacity to organize socially for specific tasks. Again going back to abused dogs, watch how they act.

Kids do think of things all the time, i dont disagree with that, but trust me when i say this, no school or "education" system will teach anyone how to recognize their thoughts and its intentions, it is not our fault, just the way the system was put together. So most thoughts are actually just random noise to keep the brain asleep.

I can remember a few sources for my ideas. A few people maintain this ability. And people like savants can remember it fully. I remember reasons why I don't say certain curse words, I remember, to a very little amount, thinking up strategies of how to deal with bullies and seeing which ones worked. I can even identify how my brain some times assumes how people might react if their faces look similar to another person. Sort of like a map of human faces in my brain, and how my brain has connected different face features to each other and how they might move. So while the education system may not teach it, some people still do know of it.

Well wtf, how in the world am i supposed to do that, or anyone else on this planet, unless i can travel back in time, i cannot give you Proof. But that's what I was taught in Russia, history lessons there are nothing like they are in America, Russians do not hold anything back, not like Canada, came here and they tried to teach me that Canada is the biggest country in the world

No education system is perfect, all of them lie, and all of them have some biases. Whose to say what the Canadian said was wrong and the Russian said was right?

FYI, Canada is the 2nd largest country by Area. So maybe you misheard? Or maybe you were taught it while the USSR was collapsing, and so they simply assumed Russia was no longer going to be one country. Many different possible reasons.

Travel is a big deal when it comes to being advanced, people today still travel on canoes, does that make us primitive? no right. 12 000 years, if u go past that, there is not much evidence anyone will be able to find, even if they had computers, you would never find one after 12 thousand years, all we would find, and which we did, our foundations to structures, and stones, no concrete or metal or plastic would last 12 thousand years( and when i say last, i mean they wont even hold the shape anymore), unless its a material yet to be discovered by man.

Depends on if it's for fun or necessity. Using a canoe for fun while your Japanese Car is at your house doesn't make you primitive. Using a Canoe because you have nothing else and you cannot think of a sailboat is. Again please don't confuse primitive savage with meaning something bad. But it does say something about cultural capacity.

Some parts of a computer could survive 12,000 years. But I catch where you are coming from. I've made biodegradable bricks in semi-lab environments before. There's no reason to assume they would use the same materials as we do. Their culture may have demanded respect for the Earth. None the less, something should remain. Vast empty flat spaces would be left. Something, anything.

So either they nuked themselves to destruction, or who knows. They respected the Earth so much they just got up and did these things off the planet.

Originally posted by Gorman91
They organize hunts for common need. They don't have the mental capacity to organize.

I'm just wondering how you can reconcile these neighbouring sentences?

reply to post by aorAki


Social organization vs necessity organization. Pay attention to the context.

Animals organize all the time. Ants, for example. They don't have the mental capacity to actually socially organize. I don't see any ant public speakers, authors, researchers, etc etc.

None the less I'll edit it to be more coherent.

reply to post by ViktorHaze


"Are we to believe by your theory that for six thousand years, they held onto the memory of a long dead species"

Yes, Especially if they deified it.

The epic of gilgamesh is roughly 5000 years old. It has many many many similarities to the story of adam and even, the flood, and noah. Stories which are STILL told today.

And you mean to tell me that a species capable of passing down this story for 5000 years is incapable of passing down the idea or knowledge of "elephants" especially if there were willing to incorporate it into temples?? Ya that makes total sense lol.

Where is the evidence of this highly advanced golden age society? Where the architecture and temples? Or were they all conveniently destroyed?

reply to post by VonDoomen


That's an interesting point, but were American elephants around 5000 years ago? I don't think so.

Pretty much the only evidence for some pre-10,000 BC civilization is the fact that right before you hit the dead zone, where nothing but statues, knives, and cave art exists, you see a sudden increase in complexity in architecture, civil engineering, and arts.

So, for example, if we were to draw a theoretical curve of the advancement of man starting with the earliest evidence for civilization, we would not start at a theoretical zero. We would start at the same value seen roughly 5000-6000 years ago, on;y in 12,000 bc. Then we would see a decline in advancement to primitive huts, forts, etc etc, then start climbing back up to civilization around 4000 BC onward.

Because this theoretical curve does not start at "zero", it hints at something more. It must, after all, start at zero. But it does not. The only "zero" value we see before 12,000 bc is 50,000-70,000 years ago.


That means between 50,000-70,000 years ago to about 12,000 years ago, there's a huge gap in artifacts left over by mankind's presence. In this time period, all we find are occasional villages, arts, pottery, musical instruments, weapons, and statues. Scattered about globally with no real clear pattern of origins until about 30,000 20,000 years ago.

reply to post by Gorman91

yea did you read what I wrote? I dont think so.
I never said there were elephants around 5,000 years ago.

Any species intelligent enough to pass down the story of gilgamesh for thousands and thousands of years is not incapable of passing down the idea of elephants. Especially i they had been deified.