Twin Ancient Cultures On Opposite Sides Of The Pacific

reply to post by VonDoomen


I thought you meant the native Elephants of the Americas that went out hundreds of thousands of years ago, not mere thousands.


The thing about the elephants of India being remembered by those traveling to America is that the people who traveled to America probably never came into contact with those in India. The lack of Elephant worship in China makes one suspicious of the claim.

It seems more likely that the idea was brought over, not remembered through thousands of years of traveling.

After all, if you're traveling, you're not worshiping in temples.

Originally posted by XaniMatriX
reply to post by Gorman91

 

That is exactly what im saying, when a human is born they dont hate anyone or hurt anyone unless they see someone else do it in turn, and i witnessed that first hand with many new born children. Nature is the same way, animals do not feel hate or take revenge, somewhere at some point in time, we must have witnessed such acts, other wise i dont see nature being the one to hate, or even provide such conditions.

Must be nice to live in fantasyland.

Did you look up what "Anasazi" means?

Are you aware that chimps have been observed in the wild plotting to kill, and then actually killing, a member of their own tribe?

The Common Chimpanzee is the more common and more vicious of the two. Hunting in troops, common chimps live in tribes led by an alpha male and characterized by complex social relationships, similar to the situation with humans. Among these chimp societies, as in many others, rape and murder are commonplace. Common chimps are substantially more aggressive than Bonobos, and have been known to attack and kill humans on occasion. This isn’t very difficult if the human is unarmed, as chimps have over 5 times the upper-body strength of a typical human male. These chimps are omnivorous, and have a substantial amount of meat in their diet.

Source: www.wisegeek.com...

See also: www.foxnews.com... ate/

You don't know much about nature, do you.

You got one big existential moment coming.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


They go way beyond just organizing hunting parties. I saw on a documentry where a male from another "tribe" happened across a youngster and killed it. The mother tried to defend the youngling but was unsuccessful, upon returning to her group with the body, the lead male got a group of half dozen males and waited by the trial to the water source, and waited they waited till the offender came along the the assaulted him with sticks and beat him to death.
And that guy does live in a fantasy land, humans are born killers its only through societies and there social constructs do we learn to be more civilized, so to speak.

Originally posted by Klassified
It's going to be hard to get academics to accept a theory we only have circumstantial evidence for at best. I personally believe it will prove out with time. Though maybe not quite in the way we might think at present. But it has some big hurdles to get over first.

I need hard scientific fact to prove it is true. Scientist and specially psychologist sometimes sound no different than what they dub religious nuts.

is one supposed to take speculation as fact just because it is coming from a scientist of sorts?

reply to post by Gorman91


I do mean the native elephants of the americas. And no they didnt go extinct hundreds of thousands of years ago.

"There is one important thing mammoths and mastodons shared in common: both of these prehistoric elephants managed to survive well into historical times (as late as 10,000 to 4,000 B.C.), and both were hunted to extinction by early humans."

humans have been in the americas for up to 30,000 years, well within the range that "elephants" were still around.

Originally posted by SisyphusRide

Originally posted by Klassified
It's going to be hard to get academics to accept a theory we only have circumstantial evidence for at best. I personally believe it will prove out with time. Though maybe not quite in the way we might think at present. But it has some big hurdles to get over first.

I need hard scientific fact to prove it is true. Scientist and specially psychologist sometimes sound no different than what they dub religious nuts.

is one supposed to take speculation as fact just because it is coming from a scientist of sorts?

edit on 15-8-2012 by SisyphusRide because: (no reason given)

If I'm understanding your point correctly, then I agree with you.

reply to post by VonDoomen


idk, most of the data I'm seeing says, 11,000 years ago. That sort of surprised me because it's not hundreds of thousands of years ago. None the less, thousands of years before humans.

Perhaps their bones? That's what's been guessed at for Chinese dragons. Maybe they found dinosaur bones.

reply to post by Harte

Must be nice to live in fantasyland. Did you look up what "Anasazi" means? Are you aware that chimps have been observed in the wild plotting to kill, and then actually killing, a member of their own tribe?

Aren't we well past this point where this question is answered?

Didn't anyone see the opening scenes of Kubricks' 2001 ?

reply to post by Gorman91


well then you're not looking hard enough, or you are only looking for "elephants" in the general sense.

A. Arrival of humans in the americas
ScienceDailey - new evidence puts humans in NA 50,000 years ago

MSNBC
"Coprolites — ancient feces — were found to contain human DNA linked directly to modern-day Native Americans with Asian roots and radiocarbon dated to 14,300 years ago. That's 1,000 years before the oldest stone points of the Clovis culture, which for much of the 20th century was believed to represent the first people in North America."

New evidence suggest humans arrive in NA 2,500 years earlier than previously thought

Nat Geo
"Today scientists who are researching the story of the first Americans—archaeologists, physical anthropologists, DNA experts, linguists—disagree on some fundamental parts of that story. Instead of an arrival 14,000 years ago, some scientists now place humans in the Americas 15,000, 20,000, or even 30,000 or more years ago."

Nat Geo - Oldest artwork in the americas is a mammoth carving on a mammoth bone?

Pedra Fauna - ancient brazilian site - carbon dated 17-60,000 years ago

Gomphothere
"the last two South American species, Cuvieronius, did not finally become extinct until possibly as recently as 9,100 BP,[2] and Stegomastodon remains have been dated to 6,060 BP in the Valle del Magdalena, Colombia.[3] Gomphotheres also survived in Mexico and Central America until the end of the Pleistocene.[4]

Gomphothere remains are common at South American Paleo-indian sites.[5] Some examples include the early human settlement at Monte Verde, Chile, dating to approximately 14,000 years ago, and the Valle del Magdalena, Colombia.[3]"




Theres tons more if you look. I actually got lost researching and had to come back here to finish this post.

Originally posted by ChuckNasty
reply to post by FoosM

 

The Chinese did have multi-masted, sea-going vessels that could reach the america's over 2K-3K years ago (probably earlier - the earliest known record was around 220BC - even then, the ship was already multi-masted and extremely large). Wouldn't seem unlikely that the Chinese tried to set up a trade route with them. Both sides have many other similarities - the dragon thing, astronomy, 'advanced' math that didn't seem right for the Mayan's. The Chinese probably stopped trading after the whole "let's sacrifice a human to our gods" thing...or when that crazy emperor decided to burn the fleet due to a dream he had.

and i think there is pottery, with similar markings from china and S. America from around the same time indicating trade.imagine the world now if china had not closed their doors then.

reply to post by VonDoomen


ehhh, that bit about Humans in North America 50,000 years ago is suspicious to me. Any bones of actual humans to back it up with? Humans did bury their belongings so it can come off as older than it actually is without some human bones near by.

Reason I doubt it is because 50,000 years ago Humans were nearly extinct from the Toba catastrophe. A species with barely 10,000 members that's dependent on each other doesn't seem likely to be traveling to America any time soon.



Your best piece of evidence is the Mammoth bone, and that I can role with because it's clear, obvious, and irrefutable. It's even in Florida, which is damn close to the peoples of the Maya.



I'd say you've convinced me pretty decently with the Florida art and South American Elephants. Thanks for some interesting research to look into.

On my free time I'm sort of trying to create a story involving really old civilizations and it'd be cool to incorporate this into that. Thanks!

Originally posted by Shane
reply to post by rickymouse

 

You do make a valid and deserving comment, in regards to Ancient America. BC America and who was here.

There is a lot of evidence that suggest European and Med Based cultures where here long before the presumed Viking arrival, let alone Columbus.

Chaldean, Hebrew, Lybian and Ancient Ogham are all found here, in the presumed New World. (If one is accepting of these as evidence of course).

Some have similar observations regarding Pacific Based Cultures.

So, it cant be simply dismissed just because someone believes it couldn't have occured. Ocean Currents are quite farourable on both American Coast to make such travels quite easy to accomplish.

Ciao

Shane

There is Sumerian writing on a canal in Central Peru also.

I'm leaning toward these civiliations being much older than mainstream archeology admits.

Elephants did live in South America, it was just a very long time ago.

Originally posted by AGWskeptic

There is Sumerian writing on a canal in Central Peru also.

I don't think so.

And definitely not, if based on nothing but a post at an internet forum.

Harte

Originally posted by reficul
this is very interesting!
can someone explain to me why the mayans have an elephant statue!!!!
that is nutty!!!
i guess its in the same realm as angor wat and there stegasoauras carvings!!!
history is a mystery!!!

Most likely Mammoth's or a Warning sign.

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by AGWskeptic

There is Sumerian writing on a canal in Central Peru also.

I don't think so.

And definitely not, if based on nothing but a post at an internet forum.

Harte

www.faculty.ucr.edu...

Not the canal, still looking for that link.

www.atlantisbolivia.org...

More links.

news.nationalgeographic.com...

I believe this the canal the writing was found on, still looking for the exact quote.

Interesting how they compare them to Sumerian canals in construction style and function, before the writing was brought to light.

Of course it's possible it's another shiester making wild claims, but I remember it being a source I trusted.

reply to post by Gorman91


Actually the evidence for humans in NA far longer than the currently popular view is pretty good.
Pendej caves in NM, is a good site and the science is very sound.

From among many probable artifacts from pre-Clovis zones of Pendejo Cave, we selected 6 specimens showing evidence of human modification of animal bones. These indicate manufacture of bone tools and ornaments and marrowing. They come from well-defined and dated layers, ranging from ca 13,000 to 50,000 YBP. Included are a pendant, an awl-knife and a serrated knife, all showing incised or ground grooves. Of three broken bones-one was probably caused by a worked stone wedge; another by impact of a tool or spear point whose broken tip remains stuck; and a bison humerus which was broken, marrowed, then retouched.

The source,
www.umass.edu...
And another source about pendejo cave.
www.andaman.org...
Also there is bluefish cave in Canada that shows signs of very early human habitation in the arctic,

40,000 to 28,000 years ago:

Age of chipped mammoth bones found at the Yukon's Bluefish Caves and nearby sites in the 1970s and '80s by archeologist Jacques Cinq-Mars and his team

Source,
www.canada.com...
There are other sites in central America an south America that give dates almost as old

reply to post by punkinworks10


But you see a distinction in those example.

No art...

While the chances of a neanderthal or some early hominid making there exist, the chances of an actual culture, much a species of man, is not.

Bare in mind that when you get wild ranges like 16,000-50,000 for Carbon dating that it's somewhat difficult to call that reliable. Carbon dating is pretty accurate in those ranges and if the rang is so great, it's probably been contaminated.

reply to post by punkinworks10


One of the things I find most intriguing about pendejo cave is the discovery of "proto- pottery"

More direct evidence of human occupation was signaled by human friction skin imprints (fingers and palms) on river clay brought up to the cliff cave and packed into pits which were hardened by fire (Chrisman, Donald, Richard S. MacNeish, Jamshed Mavahwalla and Howard Savage, 1996, Late Pleistocene Human Friction Skin Prints from Pendejo Cave, N.M.,

Source link in previous post
Analogous constructs have been found in southern China at an age of 20k plus years old.
I find it very intriguing that the same tecnique was use on both sides of the pacific.
And one point I want to make is that they were not Chinese, as there were no asians as we know them yet.
These people were likely more closely related to melanesians or australaisians.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by punkinworks10

 

But you see a distinction in those example.

No art...

While the chances of a neanderthal or some early hominid making there exist, the chances of an actual culture, much a species of man, is not.

Bare in mind that when you get wild ranges like 16,000-50,000 for Carbon dating that it's somewhat difficult to call that reliable. Carbon dating is pretty accurate in those ranges and if the rang is so great, it's probably been contaminated.

Since when is carbon dating accurate past 10k?

My prof said it was iffy after a thousand years.

reply to post by Gorman91


Read the paper from The university of Massachusetts, their methodology is pretty good, they used multiple labs for the testing and discarded many results due to contamination and obviously anomolous results.
www.umass.edu...
And I have a friend that has consulted on a site in the deserts of the mojave that have shown ages of more than 16k years, he is a geologist that specializes in alluvial materials and was called in to confirm the anomolous dates that carbon dating alluded to. Unfortunately these results won't be published for.several years at least