FBI raids homes in search of "anti-government literature"

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by Maxmars

 

. The difference is the mindset from the outset. It seems to me one group wants to fix what's wrong, the other wants to take over and dictate.

But the problem is, which side is which? I see the Occupiers as the group that wants to fix what's wrong and the tea party as the group that wants to take over and dictate...
I don't agree with you that the tea party has done things right and the other group has done things wrong either. Both are extremist groups and both have positives as well as negatives. Since my views are very different from what the tea party has become (after it was taken over by the extreme right wing), I see the tea party as the "bad" group now.
Granted, when it first began, it was much more libertarian, but now it is just extreme right wing and tries to convince people it's libertarian but is far, far from it.
You can't support one extremist group and denounce another. Either they both have the right or neither of them do.

Definition of Terrorism according to The Oxford English Dictionary - Use of violence and intimidation.
Or Terrorize - to fill with fear, coerce by terrorism

Will the real terrorists please stand up..........................................No thought not -
Hypocrites who hide behind masks of respectability and that is being kind

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Thanks Jean that IS the Crux of the issue. I honestly don't think too many here support their supposed activity but the overwhelming response is all too chilling.

reply to post by jibeho


Northwest FBI Raids Target Occupy's 'Black Bloc'

It certainly appears as if it were the "Black Bloc" who've been targeted, the Well's Fargo incident however was in Seattle.

One of the places where May Day protests got out of hand was Seattle, where eight were arrested following a day of vandalism and confrontations with police. One witness described seeing anarchists at a Wells Fargo bank branch "throwing short-handled sledgehammers through the broken windows at the tellers."

However:

Seattle PD has an open investigation on the May Day vandalism, and members of a Seattle SWAT team raided a home belonging to Occupy Seattle organizers in early July. The FBI-led raids in Olympia and Portland are believed to be part of the same investigation.

In terms of federal crimes, unless these "Black Bloc" protestors were attempting to rob Wells Fargo Bank or were defacing federal currency, their known acts are not federal crimes. Wells Fargo Bank is chartered under a First National Bank charter which is overseen by Office of the Comptroller of the Currency but this does not give the federal government any lawful authority to assume any and all crimes committed in or against Wells Fargo Bank are federal crimes.

Maxmars is correct in the remark "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is probably a duck." The Portland PD, the Oregon State Police, and of course the Constitutionally mandated Sheriff's of Oregon were more than enough to handle these arrests of vandals, regardless of their ideology. It is the ideology that is the glaring duck in these FBI arrests. The FBI do not arrest vandals...until now, of course, and the arrests, as evidenced by the warrant, were more about ideology.

There is a reason our nation is called The United States of America instead the Federal America or something that disregards the express compact made with each state that enters the Union. There is a reason Constitutional restraints have been placed upon the federal government, and again, as Maxmars points out, and I would add to that point, the Constitution for the United States of America is and always has been a profound indictment on government. It is, as Maxmars stated, an anti-government document.

Originally posted by Maxmars
reply to post by Blaine91555

 

Just an opinion of course, but I fault the movements themselves because the moment someone puts on a mask and starts being violent I would have briefed all the protesters at that moment to all sit down... leaving the hooligans exposed.... of course LEO will probably not be inclined to distinguish, but it might help keep this kind of nonsense down to a minimum.

edit on 2-8-2012 by Maxmars because: (no reason given)

That would have been a great idea. It would have showed clearly the difference.

I hate seeing this twice in one life. Once in the Peace Movement, I was a part off until the same violent Anarchists like the Weather Underground drove all decent people away. The Calendar changes but people don't. Now Bill Ayers is trying to start wars, without hiding anything and yet people ignore it as if they are gnats that will go away.

I never believed these folks cared about any cause to begin with. With them it's about control. They exist among all ideologies.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


If they are organized and they seem to be; and they are active in multiple States and it appears they are; is that not a Federal issue?

One thing for certain is they are not about fixing anything, their just vandals and thugs who get a thrill out of it all.

Also a Federally Insured Banking facility?

Dumb response sorry. Promised myself to stop that.

reply to post by PurpleChiten


That's why we have a Democracy in the first place. We will never agree and the only way to have peace and sanity is through an elected government.

The Tea Party as far as I can tell, want's smaller government and less government control. The Progressives want a Nanny State with the government having almost complete control and they having complete control of government. I think that sums it up.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Thanks Jean that IS the Crux of the issue. I honestly don't think too many here support their supposed activity but the overwhelming response is all too chilling.

And is not beyond the realms of possibility that they are agents and infiltrators - who's mission is to discredit any who dissent injustice and corruption - It has been done before and will be done again in order to clamp down on genuine dissent against a corrupt system.
Since when did our servants become our Tyrannical Masters
Dante would have a field day writing an update of the Divine Comedy

reply to post by artistpoet


Slippery slope or fine line?

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

That's why we have a Democracy in the first place. We will never agree and the only way to have peace and sanity is through an elected government.

The Tea Party as far as I can tell, want's smaller government and less government control. The Progressives want a Nanny State with the government having almost complete control and they having complete control of government. I think that sums it up.

You have Democracy you say - OK if thats what you want to believe.
You think you elect leaders - No they are elected for you years before you cast your votes

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

If they are organized and they seem to be; and they are active in multiple States and it appears they are; is that not a Federal issue?

One thing for certain is they are not about fixing anything, their just vandals and thugs who get a thrill out of it all.

Also a Federally Insured Banking facility?

Let's address your last remark first. A federally insured bank doesn't grant the federal government authority to step in and assume jurisdiction on any crime that happens in a bank. What if I willfully poke you in the eye in line at a Wells Fargo Bank? That poke in the eye is assault and battery. Since it is a federally insured bank do you think the FBI should have jurisdiction on that assault and battery? Should I be tried in a federal court for poking you in the eye because it was done in a federally insured bank?

The remark above that is precisely why I took you to task for being so disingenuous about Maxmars post. You seem to want it both ways. On the one hand "their just vandals" who are simply thrill seeking, but on the other hand they should be charged with federal crimes for this "just vandals" thrill seeking.

Finally, The Rotary Club is organized not only in every state of the Union but is an international organization. If I, a member of the Rotary Club am standing in line in the Wells Fargo Bank and I get in an argument with you, a Kiwanis member, over which Fraternal Order is best and in disgust I poke you in the eye, should that justify the use of the FBI, because the Rotary Club is organized in all states?

reply to post by artistpoet


It is very much like what happened in the Peace Movement and I'm sure others. The Weather Underground and the other Anarchists groups did not want peace, they wanted control and I see this the same way. Sadly in the mix are confused adolescents who don't know what they want and the would be dictators are more than happy to recruit them and ruin their lives.

History always repeats and the players are always the same.

Some will become adults mentally and later wonder what was wrong with me, while others will go on to be monsters. Travesty's like those from Stalin and Mao came about in a similar fashion. Look where that lead.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by artistpoet

 

Slippery slope or fine line?

Both plus deep rabbit hole with 3 headed evil bunny in the lowest bowerage devouring the souls of all who enter there - Those who use malice to gain power over nations -

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by artistpoet

 

It is very much like what happened in the Peace Movement and I'm sure others. The Weather Underground and the other Anarchists groups did not want peace, they wanted control and I see this the same way. Sadly in the mix are confused adolescents who don't know what they want and the would be dictators are more than happy to recruit them and ruin their lives.

History always repeats and the players are always the same.

Some will become adults mentally and later wonder what was wrong with me, while others will go on to be monsters. Travesty's like those from Stalin and Mao came about in a similar fashion. Look where that lead.

Yes such ones who love violence or take that way to express their own disatifaction with their lifes and are both adolocent and old alike - all walks of life but in Leaders of Nations it is less forgivable

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


So your saying that "Vandals" and "Thugs" cannot organize? They even have a name for themselves and a uniform. That's seems organized to me. They are involved in criminal acts all over the country are they not?

What's their end game? Peace and Love?

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
This thread is being a little too vague and slightly misleading. The reason for the warrant and seizures was because there had been destruction of government property (probably by spray-painting since they're looking for paint), interstate travel with intention to riot, etc. Says so right at the beginning of the warrant.

They're looking for the paint, clothes (and other items) that were worn during the painting.

Basically, somebody got caught spray-painting government property and that's what this warrant appears to pertain to.

Someone decided to cherry-pick one aspect of the warrant and spread that around.

edit on 1-8-2012 by _BoneZ_ because: (no reason given)

Well, that makes sense, then, to send a fully armed paramilitary squad after spray painters. Those people are dangerous need to be put down.

/TOA

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

So your saying that "Vandals" and "Thugs" cannot organize? They even have a name for themselves and a uniform. That's seems organized to me. They are involved in criminal acts all over the country are they not?

What's their end game? Peace and Love?

What is with you and your love of strawman arguments? How do you extrapolate from my example of Rotary's and Kiwanis that vandals cannot organize? What I refuted was that being organized across state lines does not grant the federal government the right to discard the Constitutional restraints placed upon them.

Don't make the mistake that I am a supporter of the Occupy movement. I catch crap from both sides of that mess because I fight for the rule of law. I may be thoroughly unimpressed with the Occupy movement just as I am thoroughly unimpressed with your inability to speak directly to an argument, but I will fight for your right to make strawman arguments just the same as I will fight for the right of any accused vandal to enjoy due process of law.

Between this and the new ammunition bill I'm genuinely starting to believe we are in teh first stages of a second revolution.... Governments only seize the ammunition stores and raid graffiti artists homes when they're afraid it could all come down around them.

Now is the time to push people they are running scared and we should give them something to be scared of!!

When people fear their governments there is TYRANNY

When GOVERNMENTS FEAR THE PEOPLE there is LIBERTY....