FBI raids homes in search of "anti-government literature"

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by BubbaJoe

 

I didn't ask for your biography. All I ask is that you learn the law. Not the 600,000 plus acts of legislation put out by Congress and the countless acts of legislation put out by the state you live in. Just the law. Once you know the law, you will never need a lawyer to explain legislation again. Indeed, if the legislation in question comes with criminal charges and it so complex you cannot understand it yourself, then if you know the law you know there is the void for vagueness doctrine a law that needs little to no explanation and a law that is precisely what it title suggests it is.

Apparently things are very simple in the world you live in, however most of us live in the real world, and all of the fancy words and explanations will not defend you. I live by one rule "Do what you will, but harm ye none", probably the most ancient rule of law in the world. It has served me well for 50 + years.

reply to post by BubbaJoe

Apparently things are very simple in the world you live in, however most of us live in the real world, and all of the fancy words and explanations will not defend you. I live by one rule "Do what you will, but harm ye none", probably the most ancient rule of law in the world. It has served me well for 50 + years.

Okay, so let's clarify your point. You think I live in a simple world but "most" of you live in real world, presumably much more complex, but in this presumably much more complex world you live by one simple rule?

Is this your point?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by BubbaJoe

 

Apparently things are very simple in the world you live in, however most of us live in the real world, and all of the fancy words and explanations will not defend you. I live by one rule "Do what you will, but harm ye none", probably the most ancient rule of law in the world. It has served me well for 50 + years.

Okay, so let's clarify your point. You think I live in a simple world but "most" of you live in real world, presumably much more complex, but in this presumably much more complex world you live by one simple rule?

Is this your point?

Actually live by that rule, and the rule of thrice return. You pointed me to a wiki about an ancient system of laws that is supposed to apply world wide. You and I both know and understand this doesn't happen, even here in the USA. Seriously, why continue to claim rule of law, it doesn't work in courts here in my country.

ETA: This is from the article you quoted According to political theorist Judith N. Shklar, "the phrase 'the Rule of Law' has become meaningless thanks to ideological abuse and general over-use",

reply to post by BubbaJoe

ETA: This is from the article you quoted According to political theorist Judith N. Shklar, "the phrase 'the Rule of Law' has become meaningless thanks to ideological abuse and general over-use",

I, of course, linked that article in response to you calling the rule of law "your rule of law", but here you are showing everyone who reads your post what your "rule of law" is.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by BubbaJoe

 

ETA: This is from the article you quoted According to political theorist Judith N. Shklar, "the phrase 'the Rule of Law' has become meaningless thanks to ideological abuse and general over-use",

I, of course, linked that article in response to you calling the rule of law "your rule of law", but here you are showing everyone who reads your post what your "rule of law" is.

So more personal attacks, please go back to calling me ignorant, it reflects better on you. You have obviously entered into a battle you were not prepared for, please step back and try again. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe, you and I have no common ground. You, based on past threads, wish people to be dieing in the streets, I on the other hand, believe that in a country as strong as the USA, no one should go hungry or suffer. We are not going to find common ground, and any effort to continue this conversation is wasted.

reply to post by BubbaJoe

So more personal attacks

I am attacking your arguments. If you stop investing yourself personally in those arguments it will hurt less when people challenge them.

ou, based on past threads, wish people to be dieing in the streets, I on the other hand, believe that in a country as strong as the USA, no one should go hungry or suffer.

This is a lie. I have never "wish people to be dieing (sic) on the streets." Try to stay with the arguments in this thread. These other threads that still stick in your craw are still available for you to post in regarding whatever point your addressing there.

reply to post by glasshouse


In other words you haven't seen the doc. haha.

Let me know if you see it and what you think.

On Cointelpro? Well I guess A.I.M. is a good example -- native americans against genocide.

Yeah the buddy system is definitely in order.

reply to post by glasshouse


I've gotten arrested with Jessica Sundin a couple times.

I'm sure lots of mass killers are nice "family" people also.

Jessica was describing her personal interactions with his personality.

That's called freedom of association. It's not terrorism. It's not illegal. On the contrary it's her right as a free citizen of the U.S.

Rumsfeld was chummy with Saddam Hussein but no one wanted to arrest Rumsfeld. haha. There's nothing illegal about being friendly with someone in another country. Jessica was not conducting foreign policy like Rumsfeld.

So you don't have to agree with a person to support their civil rights. I support Jessica's civil rights.

I don't agree with the group Jessica belongs to -- even though I've attended protests they have organized and I have gotten arrested with her and I've even shared the back of a squad car with her. haha. I have also confronted a member of their group about what I disagree with and then I later saw the same member and we were friendly towards each other. That's how differences are expressed in a civil manner. I also dated a women who was asked to join their group so I know some things about it beside what I observed firsthand.

I respect people's differences and that they are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. So that is within the U.S. Apparently the U.S. thinks it can bypass its own laws if someone is in another country being friendly with someone the U.S. doesn't like.

Somehow the U.S. thinks it's o.k. to go assassinate people before they get a fair trial and this now applies to U.S. citizens also.

At the time, the FARC-EP was in the midst of a dialogue with the Colombian government which took place in the area I visited, an area cleared of all U.S. and Colombian military and police forces, and where the guerrillas operated openly.

So that's when Jess went to visit FARC -- unlike how the rightwing site you linked misrepresented it.

In the 1960s, Raul Reyes served as an elected municipal council member in the department of Cundinamarca. After witnessing and enduring government and paramilitary repression for many years, he decided to join the ranks of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), the country's oldest and largest guerrilla organization. After years as an active combatant, Reyes is now the head of the International Commission of the FARC, based in Mexico City. He was interviewed by Mario Murillo and Victoria Maldonado on July 28, 1996 in San Salvador, El Salvador at the Sixth Meeting of the Sao Paulo Forum. (The interview took place several months before the Colombian government agreed to limited talks with the FARC over the release of military hostages.)

An earlier interview with Raul Reyes

So I personally confronted Vice President Al Gore about this in 2000 -- I said to Al Gore -- why is it that Colombia receives the greatest level of U.S. Aid in the Latin America and yet Colombia has the worst human rights record as a government? I said that U.S. aid is directly tied to increases in human rights violations in other countries.

I also said to Vice President Al Gore - everyone knows the CIA is complicit in the drug trade.

Some more info is available on this case now, I started a thread on it Link or here is where some more info can be found KATU.com.

Holy #. The United States Government is the ultimate terrorist organization. These people are such criminals and scumbags. We know they commit major crimes against humanity domestically and all over the world, what a bunch of scum.

reply to post by fulllotusqigong


I haven't. I'll check it out though.
You're right, her meeting with him by itself isn't illegal, although, at face value, it's definitely suspect.
Thanks for the links

ETA: What was Gore's response?

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
This thread is being a little too vague and slightly misleading. The reason for the warrant and seizures was because there had been destruction of government property (probably by spray-painting since they're looking for paint), interstate travel with intention to riot, etc. Says so right at the beginning of the warrant.

They're looking for the paint, clothes (and other items) that were worn during the painting.

Basically, somebody got caught spray-painting government property and that's what this warrant appears to pertain to.

Someone decided to cherry-pick one aspect of the warrant and spread that around.

edit on 1-8-2012 by _BoneZ_ because: (no reason given)

Thank you, man, for being the other person that actually read the warrant before going off on some rant. It never ceases to amaze me how people will take some title to a post and a few words from someone and race off flailing about without checking the facts first.

Originally posted by RadioactiveRob
Holy #. The United States Government is the ultimate terrorist organization. These people are such criminals and scumbags. We know they commit major crimes against humanity domestically and all over the world, what a bunch of scum.

Seriously? Are you just some automoton that repeats everything it's heard? Did you read the warrant? Crimes against humanity? Given to hyperbole, much?

Originally posted by silent thunder

"The FBI presentation described anarchists as “criminals seeking an ideology to justify their activities.”

Hmmmmm, that sounds like a description of most governments and their boot-boy agencies.

Are the content of political writings now deemed a reason for raiding homes?

Not just the contents of writings you have in your home, last year it was reported that the UK police were to be informed if anyone overheard anti-governmental talk or thought their neighbour was an 'anarchist'

Source - Guardian news

add to that the sweeping powers of 'listening in to your phone calls' that the police have been given, the authorities are really setting up systems to stamp out free thinkers.

[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055543/Whos-listening-Met-police-track-thousands-mobiles-using-covert-surveillance-system.html]source[/u rl]

Edit: not sure why the second link is not working, looks the same format in code as the first link. Any advice is welcome.

crazy things man... great post

Originally posted by superluminal11
As Obama said to Romney

Stop your whining-

You can criticize your gov as much as you want and its encouraged, just don't be organizing in masses wearing black and destroying property like Black Block anarchist hooligans.

Ummmm..........Frog in pot, we really appreciate you outing yourself here....But.....ATS is a great tool for an ever evolving perception, maybe you'll come to your senses...or not. You just posted for ETERNITY a championing of the elitist perspective. Tell me that you dont really believe that way, that this was simple sarcasm, if not......Thank you for outing yourself.

YouSir

reply to post by glasshouse


You can read the details of my half hour "discussion" with V.P. Gore here -- along with a dozen activists and a dozen secret service in the basement of a VFW in 2000

Also rights of the constitution by definition of being rights do not make someone a suspect. Oh yeah I should add that as I drove home after confronting Gore I was pulled over by a cop -- I didn't say anything at all -- the cop asked for my license. He goes back to his car and then after a bit he returns, gives me back my license, and says "thank you." That's it - -but there were helicopters flying over the VFW for Gore and also the mayor of Mpls. was there on the stage with Gore. So clearly I was put on some list because I had practiced my right of freedom of speech.

So for example if a person chooses the right to remain silent then that should not be held against them. Of course this is not the practice since if a person doesn't answer the police then the police will take them into custody, etc. So that's why there has to be lawyers.

For example I was standing on a street corner holding a sign protesting against nuclear waste being stored in an Indian indigenous reservation on the Mississippi river - the Prairie Island nuclear plant. A group of police officers walked past me on the street and as they did so one of them grabbed the sign out of my hand and then the cop tore the sign up. So then I got the officer's badge number to file but I had no witnesses.

So that's just one example of how rights are protected in the U.S. so-called democracy. The job of the police is to protect the bourgeois business consumer class but now with the military increasingly privatized as paramilitary armies -- the U.S. has become just like the client states of the U.S. relying on thugs and assassination, etc.

So ever since the Shay's Rebellion in the U.S. there was a property party of elites that created the U.S. constitution based on the "commerce clause" and then focused on creating a central private bank.

The "commerce clause" means that no state or any other government in the U.S. can pass a law that violates a corporations right to maximize profits. For example in the Midwest there have been "family farm laws" passed stating a person has to live on their land to be a farmer and so this was decided in a closed administrative ruling by a Federal District Court -- I had dinner with the judge who wrote the decision -- Judge Bowman -- and ostensibly the ruling was to allow people in wheel-chairs not living on farms to then be owners of farms. In reality the new ruling against family farm laws in the Midwest was so Cargill could further verticalize their control of U.S. farmers -- Cargill being the largest private corporation in the world and Cargill working directly for the CIA while Cargill receiving large tax subsidies -- Cargill: Our Taxes, Global Destruction for the detailed expose on how U.S. corporate-state imperialism works

Another thing to keep in mind about rights and suspects is again as per Cointelpro the FBI works closely with the CIA which has always had a secret domestic operation. The CIA and FBI not only infilitrate creating agent provocateurs but they also create fake groups of activists.

So consider Sarah Jane Olson -- I was good friends with her when we produced a local activist newsletter together -- and then she was arrested later for supporting the SLA "terrorists." So then I pointed out in an email activist list I had back around 2000 that the so-called leader of the SLA was a mind-controlled government CIA trained stooge. The SLA was a fake group set up by the government. Sarah Jane Olson then emailed me asking me to repeat this information as a letter to the local newspaper -- but I had urged her to use this information as her main defense in the trial!

Details on Donald DeFreeze, the leader of the "terrorist" SLA as CIA mind controlled stooge in this googlebooks link

Donald DeFreeze, otherwise known as Cinque, led the SLA. He was formerly an informant for the LAPDs Criminal Conspiracy Section and the director of Vacaville's Black Cultural Association (BCA), a covert mind control unit with funding from the CIA channeled through SRI. The Menlo Park behavior modification specialists experimented with psychoactive drugs administered to members of the BCA. Black prisoners were programmed to murder selected black leaders once on the outside. The CIA/SRI zombie killer hit list included Oakland school superintendent Dr. Marcus Foster, and Panthers Huey Newton and Bobby Seale, among others. DeFreeze stated that at Vacaville in 1971-72, he was the subject of a CIA mind control experiment. He described his incarceration on the prisons third floor, where he was corralled by CIA agents who drugged him and said he would become the leader of a radical movement and kidnap a wealthy person. After his escape from Vacaville (an exit door was left unlocked for him), that's exactly what he did.

CIA MIND CONTROL AT STANFORD RESEARCH INSTITUTE By Alex Constantine December 1996

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Originally posted by artistpoet
So what is a true American - really what?
Perhaps Governments serve as examples of how to manipulate wars death and destruction in the name of Peace and Liberty

Everyone gets the government they deserve. Indeed, there are members in this thread who have applauded the overkill as being the appropriate way to handle vandals. The United States government is the government that We the People have allowed, tolerated, and even demanded. Everyone gets the government they deserve.

Ummm.....Not quite WE, Jean Paul, I know that you were speaking "collectively" and yes, guilt association from having cast personal votes from not having the stomach or time (too damn busy working to feed the beast) to comprehend all of the intricasies of every piece of legislation that rolls off of the presses. Or perhaps it's an apathetic rigor from TMI, that numbs the will. Whatever the case, I think that it's primarily an overwhelming sense of powerlessness, of an inability to bring about any real change on an individual level, while seeing the possible, fall prey to corruption and coopting. There are certain WE's out there who make somewhat vain efforts, but the stupor of societal pressures tends to make those efforts short-lived and ineffectual at best. True devotee's are forever labeled by the dichotic label machine and ushered out of the public arena amidst the sound of catcall and rousing shrieks of "bring us their heads"......

I applaud your efforts and the efforts of others, however, no matter how loud we shout, were always overwhelmed by the persistant lowing. It sure make me wish for a cattle prod sometimes, and that's what it will take, a veritable......shock...to clear the fog. But the shock will come too late me-thinks, or I will gladly be proven wrong.

YouSir

reply to post by silent thunder


This is good news in my eyes cause it shows that these fascist are desperate and grasping at any means to silence us desenters! So this could very well be the beginning of the end for the totalitarian regime! Not to say that there wont be alot more suppression, arrests and attemps to silence those of us that are awake! This is just the nature of change for a world desperate to change before destruction becomes the norm! God Bless the Ideas
that America was built on even though they are no longer being used for the majority but only for the top elitist
scum that has a grasp on every corrupt politician, cop and judge! One day our children may look back and see how dark our lives were in contrast to our ideals! I just hope this is the case for if we choose to allow this kind of actions to silence and molest our opinions, ideals and choices they may be in worse shape then any in the entire history of civilization! Never give up and never surrender!

# tha police

Comin straight from the underground

Young nigga got it bad cuz I'm brown

And not the other color so police think

They have the authority to kill a minority.

( Looks like we have to arrest every rapper and every person with rap on ther PC)

They brainwash us with "anti-government literature" then detain us for believing it.

Without a gun and a badge, what do ya got?
A sucka in a uniform waitin to get shot,
By me, or another nigga.
and with a gat it don't matter if he's smarter or bigger

# THE POLICE.