Obamacare amounts to slavery...

Originally posted by Wotan
How America calls itself a first world nation when it cannot even look after its own citizens welfare and health is beyond me. To the OP, name all the first world nations EXCEPT America that does not have a National Health System in place. This should tell you that the current US Healthcare system is morally and ethically wrong. A Government of any nation's first role is to look after its citizens if it wishes to be called a civilised nation ........ oh, I forgot, you are still new at this Nation building malarkey!

edit on 1/7/12 by Wotan because: addition

So again we hear this "You are not civilized" argument.. You consider theft of resources at the point of a gun CIVILIZED?????

THAT is what is NOT civilized.

Jaden

reply to post by Seraph Sephiroth


There is nothing wrong with people helping people but this isnt the case with Socialized medicine (socialized anything for that matter). It is the government taking money from those who have it and giving it to those who want it.

reply to post by Masterjaden

I don't understand how ANYONE can claim that a service provided by another is a right... That would infer that you have the right to force someone to work for you. That is THE definition of slavery.

Anyone who advocates that healthcare is a right, advocates for slavery.

Is this a fair representation of your argument?

P1: Healthcare is a service provided by another person
P2: Rights give individuals the authority to compel others to behave in a certain way
P3: Giving individuals the right to health care grants them the authority to compel doctors, nurses, etc. to provide services
P4: Slaves are people who are compelled to provide services
C: Making health care a right turns doctors, nurses, etc. into slaves

Originally posted by Masterjaden
Sorry you are the one that fails.

Premise one) Slavery is forced labor, or forced work.

Premise two) A right is something that requires the ability for it to be fullfilled.

Premise three) Healthcare is a right

Conclusion one) Healthcare requires healthcare practitioners to fulfill the right to healthcare

Conlusion two) If the premise that healthcare is a right is true, it requires forced or coerced servitude in order to fulfill the right by healthcare practitioners.

The preceding premises and conclusion are logically sound AND logically valid.

The only way they are not true are if the premises are not true.

The above premises are true, therefore if healthcare is a right, it is tantamount to slavery or indentured servitude or forced labor, which are all synonyms for each other.

Jaden

You said your premises cannot be proven false. I guess you were just being egotistical, not speaking in terms of logic. My bad I guess...

Your argument is neither logically valid nor logically sound, and I am pretty sure that most people are disagreeing with you because of your notion of slavery. I can disprove your conclusion pretty easily. Watch:

Conclusion two is invalid. You equivocated the terms "require" and "coerce." Someone can be required to do something and not be coerced into doing it. Example: you can be required to pay attention in logic class without being coerced into doing so. Your argument cannot be sound, since your conclusion is invalid.

reply to post by Masterjaden

All Canadian's have health care. and I do not think they are slaves. I am an American and went from full coverage Blue Cross Blue Shield THE BEST you could get to NOTHING, because I lost my job. So For me to have no insurance, and to know that I am not the only one that has gone from the best to nothing I am not alone. I would like to know that if something happens after all the money I have paid into the system over the past 25 years, If I need affordable healthcare I can get it.

Originally posted by Wotan

So again we hear this "You are not civilized" argument.. You consider theft of resources at the point of a gun CIVILIZED?????

THAT is what is NOT civilized.

Jaden

So I take it you're an anarchist?

Originally posted by RealSpoke

Originally posted by Wotan

So again we hear this "You are not civilized" argument.. You consider theft of resources at the point of a gun CIVILIZED?????

THAT is what is NOT civilized.

Jaden

So I take it you're an anarchist?

edit on 1-7-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)

Nope. I am a libertarian. I believe that each person is endowed with unalienable rights and no one has the authority to force them to give up those rights and that any social services you want to provide must be done with individual acceptance of the policy.

Jaden

Originally posted by Masterjaden

Originally posted by wagnificent

Originally posted by Masterjaden

No it is not... Break it down into premises and try to prove any of the premises false.. You can't.. It is perfectly valid...

Jaden

Epic logic fail.

By definition premises are truth claims that can be proven either true or false. If your assertions are "unfalsifiable," then they are not premises. If you don't have premises, you don't have a logical argument. If you don't have a logical argument, it cannot be "valid."

Infallibility is for dogmatists, not for logicians.

Sorry you are the one that fails.

Premise one) Slavery is forced labor, or forced work.

Premise two) A right is something that requires the ability for it to be fullfilled.

Premise three) Healthcare is a right

Conclusion one) Healthcare requires healthcare practitioners to fulfill the right to healthcare

Conlusion two) If the premise that healthcare is a right is true, it requires forced or coerced servitude in order to fulfill the right by healthcare practitioners.

The preceding premises and conclusion are logically sound AND logically valid.

The only way they are not true are if the premises are not true.

The above premises are true, therefore if healthcare is a right, it is tantamount to slavery or indentured servitude or forced labor, which are all synonyms for each other.

Jaden

So, one more time:
When the "National Federation of Independent Business" asked the supreme court for it's opinion whether the ACA is constituional,

And the supreme court obliged by issuing an opinion

Did the NFIB have a right to force the supremes to consider the constitutionality of that law?

Originally posted by Masterjaden
I came upon an interesting thought while discussing Obamacare in another forum I frequent where people were trying to claim that healthcare is a right...

I cant speak for the people you are referring to, but the general argument is 'access' to healthcare is a right.

Not saying I agree. Just trying to clarify the parameters of the argument for you.

Americans really should talk to people in the UK, France or Canada about their health care systems if they want a dose of reality.

reply to post by Masterjaden

Anything that forces another person to do something for them shouldn't be a right. So then how would you apply this to economics? Capitalism is considered a necessary part of our society. No one calls it a right. However it is coercive. It forces people to do things for one another. If you want food and you don't have your own land then you need to work. So should we say capitalism forces people into slavery; or instead that it enforces group cooperation? I think it's a bit of a jump to say any action that compels people to do things for one another is somehow implicitly evil.

Health Care in America is already over 50% PUBLICLY Financed. With Tax-Breaks, Benefits, Grants, etc.. to Hospitals, the figure is about 65%.

Obomacare isn't slavery. The government being able to tax any activity, or non activity, that's slavery.

Originally posted by Masterjaden

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by EvilSadamClone

 

So taxation is theft?

Forced taxation IS theft...

to believe otherwise is falling for the lies...

Jaden

All taxation is forced lol.

reply to post by Masterjaden


It should be a basic human right. Its a shame it isnt. Money is slavery, we're all slaves already, any way you look at it. Unless we stomp TPTB, we will always be slaves...

reply to post by Masterjaden


Obama can stick his healthcare system up his ass...I'm not paying for it..Then when they send me a court summons, I'll stick a big ,!,,, and a return to sender on it.

reply to post by Xaphan


No it's not...It's voluntary...Don't fill out that W-4 form when you get a new corporate job. Chances are even though the form is voluntary, they won't hire you without it. System is so corrupted. The hard drive should just crash and burn.

reply to post by Kaploink


In Kentucky about 5 years ago Medicaid ran out of money and no longer was able to pay healthcare providers for their services. When doctors refused to see patients with Medicaid a Kentucky Supreme court justice informed all doctors in Kentucky if they refused to see a Medicaid patient they would be placed in jail. He forced them to provided services without pay. Did not feed, house, or provide anything to the doctors. I pretty sure that is slavery....Yeah no doubt it is.

Plus, under Obama plan we no longer need Medicaid because everyone will be required to purchase health insurance or pay a fine. Just like auto insurance if you own a car. We do not offer any free auto coverage for anyone no matter their financial situation. Plus, I will be disenfranchised when the only health care insurance I can afford does not offer equivalent coverage of Medicaid which others are getting for free or no cost. It would not be fair for me to pay for substandard insurance compared to those that are getting Medicaid for free. We all know President Obama is a fair man and would never let this happen. Excuse me I just threw up in my mouth.....

The government is telling us what insurance we must have in some states they are controlling what size soft drinks people can purchase or how much salt they may use. Freedom....what freedom. We let them get their foot in the door and now watch what happens...

Originally posted by Masterjaden


Sorry you are the one that fails.

Premise one) Slavery is forced labor, or forced work.

Premise two) A right is something that requires the ability for it to be fullfilled.

Premise three) Healthcare is a right

Conclusion one) Healthcare requires healthcare practitioners to fulfill the right to healthcare

Conlusion two) If the premise that healthcare is a right is true, it requires forced or coerced servitude in order to fulfill the right by healthcare practitioners.

The preceding premises and conclusion are logically sound AND logically valid.

The only way they are not true are if the premises are not true.

The above premises are true, therefore if healthcare is a right, it is tantamount to slavery or indentured servitude or forced labor, which are all synonyms for each other.

Jaden

what an awful bunch of gibberish, i wouldn't call it an argument, it is just a bunch of fallacious nonsense with little logic in it.
your first conclusion hasn't been supported by anything, that is just an assumption that ignores how hospitals work.

people go all the time to ERs all over this country and have been since they had them, they get treated regardless of whether they show insurance or pay first. so that conclusion is unsupported since the doctors do their jobs and help people without direct compensation from the patient, they get payed by the hospital not patients.

so how are they coerced again? they do the job, they get payed one way or another, they are not forced to do anything. all this law would do is spread the costs onto everyone, just like schools, libraries, roads and other things we already pay for.

you need to learn how logical arguments work, your second conclusion is a premise, which fails to work as well.
considering you can't even show how they are coerced, when in fact the doctors,nurses, and staff are payed for the work, it is hardly slavery, except in a narrow meaningless rendering way.

your idea is absurd, the doctors will get payed, just not by the patient, but by the local/state/fed government, they already are giving the service out to most people already.

i mean you might as well blindly foam at the mouth about public libraries. claiming anyone who believes they have the right to use one is enslaving the librarians, by robbing them of the choice of serving the person wanting to use the library.

edit: you know with these type of asinine arguments libertarians make, no wonder people mistake you all for anarchists.
this sounds like the type of "every man for themselves, screw the other guy" crap that anarchists make, it is pure nihilistic selfishness.
i can't believe how sociopathic some of the crap you say is, but it seems to be getting more common with some people apparently.

but hey thanks for illustrating the horrible outcome of social darwinism, and why darwinism or evolution makes a terrible philosophy to live by. it is one of the main reasons why when people bring up evolution as a set of morals, i say "finding morals in evolution is the most terrible idea ever!" i say this as someone who accepts the theory, because i've seen posts like the OP before, and it scares me anyone thinks like this.

reply to post by Masterjaden


People are to take care of themselves. I guess you are incapable of doing that. What a shame you cannot even take care of yourself and your own family just abandon you.... We are a new nation not just a bunch of cry babies that thinks the government needs to wipe our butts. I am blown away at the ignorance of some people.

Originally posted by Masterjaden
I came upon an interesting thought while discussing Obamacare in another forum I frequent where people were trying to claim that healthcare is a right...

I don't understand how ANYONE can claim that a service provided by another is a right... That would infer that you have the right to force someone to work for you. That is THE definition of slavery.

Anyone who advocates that healthcare is a right, advocates for slavery.

The hypocratic oath does not infer forced servitude. It is a man's personal honor to keep their word. The Doctor still must have the choice whether to do so or not. Non action on the part of the doctor does NOT amount to murder.

Jaden

edit on 1-7-2012 by Masterjaden because: (no reason given)

Not that I like Obama, but health care IS a human rights issue. Health care should not be just for those who can afford it. I know there are a crap ton of people angry this week, but lets not try to skew the reality here, and that is everyone who is human deserves to have good health AND to have their health looked after. I don't care what race or demographic a person comes from.

I'm tired of seeing rich people get everything in this country while the poor continue to struggle and get poorer. I'm sick of this whoever has the most toys wins crap.

Up here, dental care was deemed a HUMAN RIGHTS issue, when a woman who had been in dental pain for weeks avoided going to the dentist because she was poor and couldn't get help. The "free" clinic would not get her in and made her go on a waiting list that was six weeks. She ended up losing her mind from the pain, and tried to pull her own tooth out and DIED in her home leaving behind her children.

No one should have to freaking die in the year 2012 because they can't get dental care. It's inhumane, it's sick, and it's time for people to stop being so damned self absorbed and take a look around and have some compassion.