It's About Time. Germany Rules Religious Circumcision on Boys is Assault

reply to post by DarkATi



I m not sure if its forced.. if a guy doesn't brush his teeth, then he doesn't..

Washing my junk(butt, etc) has always been part of my daily shower routine.. just like armpits, navals.. etc but i guess it seems like "extra" work if someone never had it to begin with.

reply to post by ColoradoJens

Dear ColoradoJens,

This is a new one for me. It looks like we have a misunderstanding of a misunderstanding. Let me explain. Natters posted

If parents had the brainpower to discuss these things with a pediatrician and research the literature around it then sure, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, the majority of "parents" seem to think winging it, or doing what's always been done is a-ok in matters like this.

in response to my reference of the APA article which recommended that the circumcision decision be made by the parents in consultation with the doctor and considering this, that, and the other.

I took natters' comment to mean that the parent's weren't equipped to make the decision, and that in the real world the APA recommendation was unworkable. So, I replied that we should assume, for the sake of argument that the APA recommendation was wrong. But then, who does get to make the decision? Natter's told me i misunderstood.

The question of the health benefits of circumcision wasn't really the point of our discussion. But if that's what you want to discuss, I would ask for evidence that clearly shows circumcision is harmful, beyond the temporary pain, and thatthe harm is so great that it outweighs any other consideration so that the decision should be taken out of parent's hands.

But that position would be contradicted by the APA recommendation. Besides, that's what people have been going back and forth over through the whole thread.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Fair enough. There is no medical opinion that states health benefits to be certain. That then leaves it to personal choice. We have laws against things like genital and body piercing for minors. Why do you think that is?

CJ

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by RogerT3

 

this is nothing more than a means for Germany to tell muslims and jews that, perhaps, they'd be better off raising their children elsewhere.

If it was discovered that splashing water on an infant's face, or dunking them, ever so briefly, was akin to waterboarding and, therefore, was no longer allowed, I'd be just as concerned about the state of society as I am with this law.


Picture a child born with webbed toes or a hemangioma on their face.

It's how god made them, right? neither are a danger to the child. there's no medical reason to alter their appearance, other than cosmetic. Shouldnt' these kinds of surgeries be banned as well?

What about orthodonture? ask any child and they will tell you they don't want braces. the majority of all orthodonture is cosmetic. why aren't they banning the barbaric practice of sticking a metal device under the roof of a child's mouth so that, every night, you can crank that rack outward, widening your child's mouth to accomodate teeth? Believe me, having seen this done, it is far more barbaric, far more torturous than removing excess skin and, yet, there's no laws saying we can no longer subject our children to a year of dental torture, all in the name of straight teeth.


This law is b.s. It's nothing more than a masked way of telling jews and muslims they aren't welcome any more.

It's not excess skin, it's a fully functioning part of the human body, developed for specific positive benefits over thousands or hundreds of thousands of years (depending on your view of evolution/creation!) My guess is that you're cut yourself, otherwise you'd treasure your 'excess skin' and know intimately there's nothing redundant about it.

Well, you are entitled to share your opinion, but it would be nice if you phrased it as such rather than the rather arrogant assertion of fact that assumes you know the motives of the German court intimately.

You can't really be seriously supporting the right to circumcise because other people have the right to get dental work on their kids? Strawman, but hey, I'll play along... how many 8 day old babies do you see strapped into a chair getting their gums hacked in half and metal plates inserted?

And yes, I also have a problem with any kind of cosmetic surgery on a child, short of helping someone with real disfigurement cope with life. My daughter has a couple of body anomalies, IMO it makes her unique and I see them as cute. My guess is if she were the child of a parent with your apparent views, she'd already have had several surgeries before her 2nd birthday.

My eldest daughter has had orthodontic work for cosmetic reasons. I didn't approve, but SHE WANTED IT and as a teenager I considered she was old enough to make the decision and bear the responsibility (temporary pain).

PLAIN AND SIMPLY PUT:


don't cut my penis.





how hard is that to understand?


DO. NOT. CUT. MY. PENIS.



its not a joke, it isn't funny, and i never had a choice, i feel like i have lost something.


i never gave them permission. NEVER. and i never would have.

Currently in this thread the argument boils down to these..


- Religious/Right to perform the rituals..

- Politics, Germany "trying to get rid of everything jew"

- Health - is circumcision necessary?

- Cosmetics - Looks..?

- Tradition(non religious) - dad's dad have it, dad have it, so its okay and normal for me to have it

- Ethics - is it okay to do this? with no proven benefit? on a child?

- Peer pressure - Girlfriends, social normal in the current country...


Of course, everyone has a reason to do it, or need to reason to tell themselves that what was done to them was reasonable.

Women prefer cut men apparently in this thread. As if their opinion on this matters at all.
Men say they have the right cause their religion tells them so. So in the end they only gain pleasure from committing (selling) their children to their chosen deity. They do not want the children to grow up and have the choice for themselves. And god forbid (!?) someone would ban abuse of children who cant defend themselves they cry out "we have the right to mutilate our own offspring". That is just absurd. Just because the children are your own does not give you magical rights to molest them either. Also dont even try to argue with corrective medical surgeries as a point like one site admin did. That in fact reinforces the anti-cut point of view. It's a medical reason. If there is a medical reason it's ok to lose the hood.

reply to post by PsykoOps


I noticed, after your first post, that Finland has a 0.6% circumcision rate. May I ask since you live there, is your country experiencing abnormally high rates of HIV/penis cancer?

EDIT: I stand corrected: Finland has a .006% rate - almost no one is circumcised there.

CJ

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by ken10

 

no, Germany is bringing in this law for reasons other than protecting children. If they were, then there would be other practices that would be outlawed. All cosmetic procedures should be banned until the child is of age to determine whether, or not, they want the procedure.

I'd welcome that, but in lieu of total common sense, I'll applaud this as a good start.
As I already stated, removal of a functional piece of the body at birth is also a helluva difference from straightening teeth or removing a non-functional 6th toe that makes buying shoes a bit of a problem!!
I'm reeeeeallly surprised someone of your stature can't see that, but heh, conspiracy site owners can be blinded by conditioning too

ETA: after re-reading your post, I see that you are actually ANTI-circumcision, which I had totally misunderstood, so I apologize. In my defence, your posts can be a little cryptic. I understand your POV and it has merit indeed, but to me this is secondary to ending the needless and useless butchering of newborns in the name of fashion, religion and or falsehoods about health.

Ok, so in this case the Jews and Muslims are losing some (questionable) ground, but the babies are keeping their stuctural integrity

Originally posted by luciddream
Currently in this thread the argument boils down to these..


- Religious/Right to perform the rituals..

- Politics, Germany "trying to get rid of everything jew"

- Health - is circumcision necessary?

- Cosmetics - Looks..?

- Tradition(non religious) - dad's dad have it, dad have it, so its okay and normal for me to have it

- Ethics - is it okay to do this? with no proven benefit? on a child?

- Peer pressure - Girlfriends, social normal in the current country...


Of course, everyone has a reason to do it, or need to reason to tell themselves that what was done to them was reasonable.

edit on 6/28/2012 by luciddream because: (no reason given)

this post is not directed AT you, and im not mad AT you.

ok?


honestly, im so mad, they can all go to %$^&! with their reasons for why and why not.


they do NOT have the right to cut a babies PENIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


im so mad that they cut me, THAT WAS A PART OF ME!!! i never said it was ok!


i would have been even angrier if they had "convinced me" at the age of 10 or something, and tricked me into getting it done.


ITS NOT RIGHT.


they should make you wait until your 18-20 and then NOBODY should pressure anybody into doing it in any way.


if you want it done, you should go and do it because YOU want to.



i would have NEVER done this. i want my tiny piece of skin back so bad. i feel like i never even had a chance.





peace.

reply to post by luciddream


Agreed. I again point to the fact that religion has intertwined with society to the point that this is a non-issue for most. I again state that religion makes otherwise good and moral people do immoral things.

CJ

reply to post by SoymilkAlaska


Thank you.

2nd.

CJ

Originally posted by PsykoOps
Women prefer cut men apparently in this thread. As if their opinion on this matters at all.
Men say they have the right cause their religion tells them so. So in the end they only gain pleasure from committing (selling) their children to their chosen deity. They do not want the children to grow up and have the choice for themselves. And god forbid (!?) someone would ban abuse of children who cant defend themselves they cry out "we have the right to mutilate our own offspring". That is just absurd. Just because the children are your own does not give you magical rights to molest them either. Also dont even try to argue with corrective medical surgeries as a point like one site admin did. That in fact reinforces the anti-cut point of view. It's a medical reason. If there is a medical reason it's ok to lose the hood.

honestly, those woman can go find someone else!!

i don't CARE what those women want. or what they prefer.


its MY penis!!!!


they can go find another "man"


sigh.




peace. (this post was not intended to offend or insult)

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
reply to post by PsykoOps

 

I noticed, after your first post, that Finland has a 0.6% circumcision rate. May I ask since you live there, is your country experiencing abnormally high rates of HIV/penis cancer?

CJ

That's exactly the point I made. We dont do that here and we're doing just fine. We dont have huge HIV waves and mens members "rotting and falling" like one member wrote here.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
reply to post by PsykoOps

 

I noticed, after your first post, that Finland has a 0.6% circumcision rate. May I ask since you live there, is your country experiencing abnormally high rates of HIV/penis cancer?

CJ

arghhhh it has nothing to do with if your cut or uncut....


people that get circumcised can get any disease just as easily as a natural person.


people need to use condoms, thats all it is.


peace.

Originally posted by PsykoOps

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
reply to post by PsykoOps

 

I noticed, after your first post, that Finland has a 0.6% circumcision rate. May I ask since you live there, is your country experiencing abnormally high rates of HIV/penis cancer?

CJ

That's exactly the point I made. We dont do that here and we're doing just fine. We dont have huge HIV waves and mens members "rotting and falling" like one member wrote here.

people just have to take care of themselves, you take a shower and you use SOAP.

you wash every little area inside and out, all over and your clean.



if someones penis fell off, its because they NEVER wash it, and it got infected.



peace.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
reply to post by luciddream

 

Agreed. I again point to the fact that religion has intertwined with society to the point that this is a non-issue for most. I again state that religion makes otherwise good and moral people do immoral things.

CJ

Its funny, soo many of the "Pro-Circumcision"(sorry i had to invent the name ) i seen on ATS trying to defend mutilation and other type of abuse, but when its tradition and religious, its all good!

Its true when people say you only understand things when you are outside the circle. Right now i see how its unnecessary to do this but others are clouded by what is "norm" to them.

reply to post by SoymilkAlaska


I understand. There has been numerous attempts here to prove that it is some necessary medical procedure and the information I have found has been inconclusive at best. I was just trying to strengthen that point...

CJ

Originally posted by SoymilkAlaska

Originally posted by PsykoOps

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
reply to post by PsykoOps

 

I noticed, after your first post, that Finland has a 0.6% circumcision rate. May I ask since you live there, is your country experiencing abnormally high rates of HIV/penis cancer?

CJ

That's exactly the point I made. We dont do that here and we're doing just fine. We dont have huge HIV waves and mens members "rotting and falling" like one member wrote here.

people just have to take care of themselves, you take a shower and you use SOAP.

you wash every little area inside and out, all over and your clean.



if someones penis fell off, its because they NEVER wash it, and it got infected.



peace.

These cheese, urine storage things Pro-Circumsized people use is because of the internet...

You probably had cavities and/or someone you know might have.. but if you type "Cavities" on image search, you will get the worst of the worst.. even bleeding gums etc.. and people think to themselves "circumcised must be like this on everyone"

25 yrs of uncircumcised and still never seen the soo called "cheese" or any build up...Uncircumcised men have more fun !!!

Originally posted by SoymilkAlaska

Originally posted by luciddream
Currently in this thread the argument boils down to these..


- Religious/Right to perform the rituals..

- Politics, Germany "trying to get rid of everything jew"

- Health - is circumcision necessary?

- Cosmetics - Looks..?

- Tradition(non religious) - dad's dad have it, dad have it, so its okay and normal for me to have it

- Ethics - is it okay to do this? with no proven benefit? on a child?

- Peer pressure - Girlfriends, social normal in the current country...


Of course, everyone has a reason to do it, or need to reason to tell themselves that what was done to them was reasonable.

edit on 6/28/2012 by luciddream because: (no reason given)

this post is not directed AT you, and im not mad AT you.
ok?

honestly, im so mad, they can all go to %$^&! with their reasons for why and why not.

they do NOT have the right to cut a babies PENIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

im so mad that they cut me, THAT WAS A PART OF ME!!! i never said it was ok!

i would have been even angrier if they had "convinced me" at the age of 10 or something, and tricked me into getting it done.

ITS NOT RIGHT.

they should make you wait until your 18-20 and then NOBODY should pressure anybody into doing it in any way.

if you want it done, you should go and do it because YOU want to.

i would have NEVER done this. i want my tiny piece of skin back so bad. i feel like i never even had a chance.
peace.

You know what i would find hands downs hilarious, that, if in an alternate universe you had a few years with your precious forsaken foreskin only then to start having problems before the doctor says "Look son, its best we take it off"

Your ranting on like a screaming little child when you dont even know the physical difference between having and not having a foreskin! That would be like me saying i miss my penis.

OH GOSH I MISS MY PENIS!