It's About Time. Germany Rules Religious Circumcision on Boys is Assault, page 1

As the loquacious Christopher Hitchen's repeated said, "Genital Mutilation is NO JOKE".

How can anyone think it is ok to do this to children, all in the name of God? The truth lies in the fact that religion HATES your sexuality and wants you to be both ashamed of it and to be scarred for life - that to lessen your sexual pleasure somehow makes you more closer to God's ideals.

As an American I find it interesting that so many can be so shoked by the genital mutilation cases from Africa our news is so keen to show us, but they themselves have been mutilated! Talk about brain washing. Why is this barbaric and evil practice allowed here? Of course there are cases where a circumcision is done for medical reasons - this is entirely different and not my point. I am discussing the forced religious practice.

I realize Germany has a lot wrong with it, but regarding this (and scientology) they have it right. Who are YOU to say I should have my genitals mutilated because your God demands it? How disgusting and absurd. It is one practice of religion that cannot in any way be argued as "making sense", even from a faith based claim. It is tortuous, dangerous, and an act of violence against someone who cannot make that decision for themselves. It is a "marking" by those who are forcing their will and beliefs upon those who cannot fight back. It is sadistic and shows how long we have to go.

"The religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised, if they were obliged to wait until the child could himself decide to be circumcised," the court added.

Text"The body of the child is irreparably and permanently changed by a circumcision," the court said. "This change contravenes the interests of the child to decide later on his religious beliefs."

"Unlike many politicians, the court has not allowed itself to be scared off by charges of anti-Semitism or religious intolerance," added Putzke.

Germany Sees Through Circumcision



ColoradoJens

reply to post by charles1952

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You are quite right this has been going on for millenia. It has been forced upon the unsuspecting and those with no voice as a "religious" practice. I again ask, who in their right mind would ever have dreamed up such a thing? Is it not sadistic and cruel to cut your genitals with a knife because "God told me so"? We have outlawed slavery you know.

CJ

reply to post by dorkfish87

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Well, I believe if someone is old enough to consent to this, they should be able to do what they want to their own bodies. Even kids taught religion can change their views later in life. You can't change this.

CJ

reply to post by Shirak

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Excellent points. It is YOUR vessel - the one that WAS MADE IN GOD'S IMAGE (or so religious people tell me) -And if that is the case, why are we whacking away at baby's genitals? Did God mess up the genitals somehow?

CJ

reply to post by dorkfish87

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those are mutations not something that humanity has gained through millions of years of evolution and inherent to every male on the planet (and personally i believe that should be a choice if it werent for the social stigma of having gills or a tale that would permanently harm the psyche of the child)

reply to post by ColoradoJens

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This is certainly a religious rite that has been so instilled that we seem to be indoctrinated to be appalled at even thinking not to cut off that piece of flesh from birth. Doctors have pretty much been condoning/supporting this for a very long time.

Here's the first example of a fight over it that I know of. Me thinks that Zipporah, the wife of Moses, refused to let her son's foreskin be cut off.........

Exodus 4:24

And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.

25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

I wonder how this ruling, in Germany, will effect ear piercing of babies? When are they of age to consent to piercings, tatoos etc.

I'm still upset about my tonsils being taken out, because of my age and the insurance policy, not because of an illness.

reply to post by ColoradoJens

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Dear ColoradoJens,

As my earlier post didn't answer the question you were asking, let me try more directly. There are four parts to your post, however. Mind if I take them one by one?

It has been forced upon the unsuspecting and those with no voice as a "religious" practice.

You're quite right. Those people do grow up to have voices and the ability to decide whether to do it. There doesn't seem to be any large Jewish outrage, so perhaps those who are circumcised come to see it's value as they don't try to stop it.

I again ask, who in their right mind would ever have dreamed up such a thing?

Well, of course, we only know it's general foundation, but does it matter? Who ever dreamed up eating raw oysters? It's disgusting to me, but certain people swear by it. Would circumcision be better in your mind if it had been dreamed up by somebody else? Say perhaps a pediatric physician decided it was, all in all, healthier. Would you accept it then?

Is it not sadistic and cruel to cut your genitals with a knife because "God told me so"?

Again, what if it was for some other reason than religion, OK then? Besides, you really can't have it both ways. You can't complain that it is done for religious reasons and also claim that it was done from sadism and cruelty. The parents don't believe it is sadistic and cruel. Why should the state tell them that this procedure is sadistic and cruel? Additionally, what is the effect on the baby at the time? Do we want to prevent pain to the baby? Does circumcision hurt the baby as much as an abortion?

We have outlawed slavery you know.

Sorry, I don't see how this applies. Is a person with a tatoo a slave? Even if he got it as an adult?

reply to post by windword

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One of few passages of the Bible I know, thanks windword. I suppose the argument for piercings and tatoos is similar except that I know my ear piecing is now "grown over" and although painful and expensive, one can have a tatoo removed. I believe in the US it is against the law for minors (under 15) to get a tatoo or a piercing - some guy recently lost custody of his kid because he let the 10 year old get a tatoo.

Genital mutilation however is something all of its own. Can anyone say a parent getting their newborn baby a clitoris ring is a good parent? If you do think it is ok, there is a lot wrong with you - I think we'd all agree. If you want to do it once you have the ability to think, then it is your own choice. Frankly piercing babies and putting tatoos on them is purely a selfish act by the parent, in my opinion.

CJ

reply to post by charles1952

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I appreciate your questions to me and I'll answer the best I can:

You're quite right. Those people do grow up to have voices and the ability to decide whether to do it. There doesn't seem to be any large Jewish outrage, so perhaps those who are circumcised come to see it's value as they don't try to stop it.

There doesn't seem to be any outrage, frankly. It is accepted practice. It is an unquestioned (like so many other) religious belief. There is no outrage because IT IS THE WAY. And really, what value is there in mutilating someone's genitals? NONE.

Well, of course, we only know it's general foundation, but does it matter? Who ever dreamed up eating raw oysters? It's disgusting to me, but certain people swear by it. Would circumcision be better in your mind if it had been dreamed up by somebody else? Say perhaps a pediatric physician decided it was, all in all, healthier. Would you accept it then?

I stated in the OP this has to do with the religious practice of genital mutilation. If there are medical resasons why the operation should be done, then so be it. The fact is, it isn't a medical necessity in almost all cases. Regarding eating oysters, people eat every animal on the earth. You have a choice there. We also have a choice not to slash our babies genitals. The fact is, you can live a full heathy life without having your genitals mutilated - those who have made it their cannon, so to speak, are the religious. Their laws say it is the right thing to do and everyone goes about life all happy they were brutalized/indoctrinated because THEY TOLD ME SO.

Again, what if it was for some other reason than religion, OK then? Besides, you really can't have it both ways. You can't complain that it is done for religious reasons and also claim that it was done from sadism and cruelty. The parents don't believe it is sadistic and cruel. Why should the state tell them that this procedure is sadistic and cruel? Additionally, what is the effect on the baby at the time? Do we want to prevent pain to the baby? Does circumcision hurt the baby as much as an abortion?

Again, if someone's life were in imminent danger than yes, I understand. This next part is the paradox of religion. It is ONLY because of religion that we could ever imagine the brutal and sadistic practice of genital mutilation as being "normal". The state should tell anyone who is mutialting someone else it is wrong - because of simple decency. Amazing how anyone can look at it any other way - it is what it is - mutialting a child's genitals. Of course you want to prevent pain in a baby and what does abortion have to do with any of this?

CJ

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