It's About Time. Germany Rules Religious Circumcision on Boys is Assault

A general response, will keep it short and sweet...

If GOD is perfect and without sin, and made us in his image...

Then somewhere he messed up pretty bad if all of a sudden we have to start slicing and dicing our kids in his name...

If that is the case, GOD is far from perfect, and does not deserve our attention? Surely it's that simple... or are we all too tied down to the books of men devoted to the control under the illusion of the perfect creator?

Just a thought

reply to post by majel42 and ColoradoJens

Dear majel42 and Colorado Jens,

What should have been a fairly simple conversation has grown into a jungle of confusion and emotion which may never be cleared away, although some are trying. The problem seems to me to be based on your premises.

1.) Circumcision is a traumatizing, immoral, criminal, disfigurement and mutiliation.
2.) No religious reason for performing it has any merit whatever. In fact, offering a religious reason is proof of the mental incapacity of the parents.
3.) The only medical justification for such a procedure is serious, imminent physical harm. Any other medical reason is as valuless as a religious one.
4.) The slightest possibility that a medical procedure may go badly is a reason against allowing the procedure to be done.
5.) Any mention of a possible medical benefit to circumcision is either wrong, or a ploy by doctors to make more money.

Some here have attempted to show you that your premises are flawed, but I don't see any willingness to accept correction or even discussion. Do you disagree that the above are your basic premises? If that's what you start from, of course your conclusions are correct, but do you seriously believe any of them?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952



Mayo Clinics assessment of male circumcision..

Circumcision might have various health benefits, including: Easier hygiene. Circumcision makes it simpler to wash the penis. Washing beneath the foreskin of an uncircumcised penis is generally easy, however. Decreased risk of urinary tract infections. The overall risk of urinary tract infections in males is low, but these infections might be more common in uncircumcised males. Severe infections early in life can lead to kidney problems later on. Prevention of penile problems. Occasionally, the foreskin on an uncircumcised penis can be difficult or impossible to retract (phimosis). This can lead to inflammation of the foreskin or head of the penis. Decreased risk of penile cancer. Although cancer of the penis is rare, it's less common in circumcised men. In addition, cervical cancer is less common in the female sexual partners of circumcised men. Decreased risk of sexually transmitted infections. Circumcised men might have a lower risk of certain sexually transmitted infections, including HIV. Still, safe sexual practices remain essential.

Mayo Clinic

Sorry can't resist one more response...

To all the ladies that prefer the "cut" look you have been conditioned to like, I personally like this look, so please ensure you get yourselves sliced and diced accordingly... you know so you fit the ingrained stereotype that us males dig... thanks



Now apologies if I offended with that, but your visual argument is completely flawed, unless of course you are happy to completely tidy yourselves up and be held to a standard deemed appropriate?

Science actually says CUT men lose a heck of a lot of sensitivity. Therefore the males sexual performance, whilst still enjoyable, is actually lessened as a result of the work. The health benefits are slight and no better than good basic hygiene - but you know, in this modern age where time is of the essence, I guess we dont have time for basic hygiene and thus, removal of what GOD gave us is a simpler way to go.

What next, removing armpits because you know, after a workout, they smell? Completely removing the rear end, because it produces smelly gas, and even more smelly bodily wastes? We are what we are, if we didn't need these elements, we wouldn't have been given them to begin with. Evolution/GOD whatever you choose to believe works in mysterious ways, and as such we have these things for a purposes.

And surely the basic argument holds most valid... what right to YOU have to enforce your beliefs onto others? Including your own children? I was brought up with good morals and ideals, but was given enough space to make my own way in the world, to become my own person and lead my own life. I have never been circumsized, christianed or undertaking any religious ceremony which deemed me to be a man or of age, or whatever.

If my deeds in this life are not good enough to get me a ticket into the pearly gates... then I would rather choose an eternity of uncertainty, then to follow a god who only cares that I worship him, regardless of how I treat others and progress as a person, being, soul.

reply to post by dusty1

Dear dusty1,

Thanks very much for the quote and link. That's why I disagree with Premise #5, above. That came from majel42's comment :

I worked in a clinic where men could have this done and even the Dr's that carried out the procedure admitted there was very little evidence that it gave any health benefits but it was a big money earner. That is one of the reason that Dr's in the US push the procedure, it is quick, fairly low risk (but still risky) and a guaranteed money spinner for them.

I think someone has misinformed her, and I hope we can come to a clearer understanding here.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by dusty1


lmao...

did you read what you just posted from the mayo clinic...

Although this is extremely rare, there is a decreased risk from circum...

Really, so these things are so rare, do we really have enough data to back them up??? There is a higher chance of prostrate cancer in men, but do we remove the prostrates of every healthy male above a certain age to protect them from a common disease?

reply to post by moleskin

You have scared me, perhaps unintentionally.

And surely the basic argument holds most valid... what right to YOU have to enforce your beliefs onto others? Including your own children?

If the parents don't have the right to train their children in what they feel are the proper beliefs, who does? The State? The State Schools? A Neighborhood Committee? (It takes a village.) No training in morals and beliefs at all? Please, let me know what you meant, it couldn't be what I read the words to mean.

reply to post by ColoradoJens


OMG, religion yeah okay we circumcise babies because our God tells us to. Are you serious? Circumcision is not an religious act its a medical procedure period. Go ahead have your babies grow up non circumcised, if it doesn't get infected because you can't clean it right it might not fall off. LMAO

Originally posted by ColoradoJens

Originally posted by MeesterB
I'm circumcised and every girl I've been with has loved it... sooo... nbd.
But yeah! Teach those religious types a lesson! Don't let them have anything! muhahahahahaha

Say what? How is mutilating your gentials in any way a moral thing to do to someone? I too am circumcised but I can tell you both you and I had no say in it.

CJ

edit on 26-6-2012 by ColoradoJens because: (no reason given)

And you don't remember it, do you? Unless you waited until you were a man to have the procedure done then it sticks with you until your last day.

I was just looking up what the Jewish people actually think about circumcision and as it happens it's actually a choice anyways - so this law isn't really doing anything except making the choice. It's not like God is going to banish them because the law says they can't now....

There is no medical proof that circumcision prevents any disease. Kids get ear infections...I dont make their ears unuseable. Infant girls get bladder infections - they get antibiotics instead of having their labia chopped off. If you keep it clean, don't retract before puberty and teach the boy how to take care of himself all will be fine. My husband is intact, whole and healthy. And he doesn't look or smell disgusting at all. Women don't have a fricken clue what is going on down there with a dude. And men propogate the act in the same way that women propogate female circumcision...because it "worked for them". It's just "how it is". "I want him to look the same as I do" - seriously dudes, how many of you stood in a room and compared yourself to your dad at an age when it mattered?

My husband is uncut, he doesn't "finish" faster than he should, likewise he has plenty of feeling. He's never had any infections. he doesn't smell funny. Problems are the exception and can be dealt with when they happen.


here is a short blurb about it with footnotes to the studies done: circumcision fact and statistics

I see zero wrong with circumcision, religious or not. Every male in my family was, even my own son. It's cleaner.

Besides. Uncut's look SOOOOO repulsive to me. I'd not know what to do if I saw one in real. I'd be scared. I've only been with cut so it must be the majority.

Then again, I've only been with like 5 guys since 21. I'm almost 40 now.

reply to post by ColoradoJens


I think you're missing the/a point. It isn't done for "religious reasons", jews make up a small portion of the population and in their religion it's part of it. Christianity though and it's no where to be found. Paul said it wasn't needed and the Catholic church denounced it all the way back in the 1400s.

Probably for 95% of parents the reasons amount to "well, just because" and it has nothing to do with religion. Society =/= religion.

Originally posted by sarra1833

Do you type just to listen to the sound of your fingers hitting your keyboard?

I see zero wrong with circumcision, religious or not.

Do you understand that circumcision was originally a sign of slavery to a terrible deity that dwelt in a pillar of fire and ordered his circumcised manslaves to go and do terrible things, including cutting off and coercing others to cut off their tips?

So zero wrong or you don't care about the religious origin?

Every male in my family was, even my own son. It's cleaner.

Cleaner than what, do you think uncircumcised men leave a messy trail?

Besides. Uncut's look SOOOOO repulsive to me. I'd not know what to do if I saw one in real. I'd be scared.

So, the natural state of men affairs is repulsive? Do you realize how superficial, shallow and brainwashed you sound?

I'd not know what to do if I saw one in real. I'd be scared.

Watchout, there's one behind you!

I've only been with cut so it must be the majority.

Oh, okay, I didn't know you're an authority, but seeing how you know the majority, I can see I'm dealing with a professional here!

Then again, I've only been with like 5 guys since 21. I'm almost 40 now.

Ah the humility....

Originally posted by natters
I was just looking up what the Jewish people actually think about circumcision and as it happens it's actually a choice anyways - so this law isn't really doing anything except making the choice. It's not like God is going to banish them because the law says they can't now....

That last sentence is just off on so many ways..

reply to post by dusty1


Here's the current position of the American Academy of Pediatrics. In short, they do not recommend it.

Where We Stand: Circumcision

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) believes that circumcision has potential medical benefits and advantages, as well as risks. The existing scientific evidence is not sufficient to recommend routine circumcision. Therefore, because the procedure is not essential to a child’s current well-being, we recommend that the decision to circumcise is one best made by parents in consultation with their pediatrician, taking into account what is in the best interests of the child, including medical, religious, cultural, and ethnic traditions. Your pediatrician (or your obstetrician if he or she would be performing the circumcision) should discuss the benefits and risks of circumcision with you and the forms of analgesia that are available.

www.healthychildren.org...

Regarding UTIs, the site points out that "A circumcised infant boy has about a 1 in 1,000 chance of developing a UTI in the first year of life; an uncircumcised infant boy has about a 1 in 100 chance of developing a UTI in the first year of life." UTIs are easily treated with antibiotics, so there really is no good medical reason to circumcise baby boys due this fear.

Here's a good site that demolishes the opinion-based myths that circumcision has medical benefits:

Doctors Opposing Circumcision

www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org...

This site presents startling, exhaustive evidence that the medical and emotional harm to the infant from circumcision far outweighs any medical "advantages."

Their conclusion:

We have shown that the genital cutting of male children is unnecessary, harmful, injurious, a threat to good health, and a violation of the child's human rights. The child's best interests include the protection of his legal right to bodily integrity. Boys whose genital integrity is protected suffer none of the harms and insults described above. They enter life with body, mind, and spirit intact. Genital integrity, therefore, is most likely to provide the highest state of health and well-being.

Babies circumcised in Orthodox Jewish rituals have the added danger of contracting herpes from the rabbi who sucks the baby's penis after the procedure. Here is an article in the Huffington Post about this shocking and disturbing religious ritual:

Baby Dies From Herpes After Controversial Circumcision Ritual, Report Says

and from the New York Times:

Baby’s Death Renews Debate Over a Circumcision Ritual

and from Fox News:

11 New York infants infected with herpes through ritual in Jewish circumcision

reply to post by sarra1833


You do know that any sort of "cavernous" type area between the two anatomies, that women dwarf men.

wiki.answers seems to have an answer.

Which smells worse a penis or a vagina? In: Sexual Health and Education [Edit categories] Answer: Answer It depends on factors such as if the penis is circumcised or not, because then there could be the presence of smegma, which could give it a strong odor. It also of course depends on the importance of personal hygiene to the person. That being said, in a case where a male and a woman with identical hygiene, the woman's vagina would generally have a stronger smell, maybe not really 'worse' or 'bad', but definitely much stronger. Read more: wiki.answers.com...enis_or_a_vagina#ixzz1z3wpwb23

Keep in mind if you're exploring and decide to go cave diving.

This barbaric practice should be ended here in the USA as well. I laugh when some idiot says that it is done for medical purposes. Hygiene? Women have it way far worse. This practice steals sexual pleasure from males.

Sure, males still feel but they don't know how much better it is with the way it was meant to be. What is equally amusing is those who worship their so-called perfect god are the sheoplized hypocrites who push this mentally deranged act of butchery. It needs to end, and one day soon it will. ~$heopleNation

Originally posted by moleskin
reply to post by dorkfish87

 

Dorkfish... you are either a guy who has spent too much time close to unclean penises... or a female...

If you are a female is it really fair for you to comment or participate, without some recourse against female genital appearances/smells/etc?

Thanks

Men comment and participate against issues that have to do with women's genitalia all the time. Why can't women put their say in against whether they like uncut vs cut?

reply to post by ColoradoJens

After watching a video of how circumcision is performed on newborn boys, I was horrified. No anaesthesia of any kind is administered and the infants are strapped to a board, called a papoose, which completely freaks them out. Then, the excision is done, which elicits shrieks of terror and agony the likes of which I've previously heard only from small animals being consumed alive. I decided that I couldn't be paid enough to have him traumatized from birth.

What I don't understand is why are we surprised that men are obsessed with their penises all their lives when they are subjected to that mutilation, WITHOUT ANAESTHESIA, hours after birth? If a man wants to be circumcised, he can have it done when he is old enough and can afford it.

Originally posted by Believer101

Men comment and participate against issues that have to do with women's genitalia all the time. Why can't women put their say in against whether they like uncut vs cut?

Besides, as a woman i rant in every thread about female genital mutilation and even though men circumcision is less mutilating i would feel the biggest hypocrite on earth if i did not raise my concern about men also.

As a mother i cannot believe there are mothers who let someone hurt their newborn. I worked for months to make that perfect little body, no effin way i would let someone touch his penis. Period.