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If You Dare

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posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 05:52 PM
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reply to post by PeterWiggin
 


Off topic: The thread title can be anything it wants, I merely mentioned it, because the title could be construed a number of way's like If you dare.....let's all overthrow the banks of the world, with a bank run, yeah.

Second point, In the last year there have been a few threads regarding the abortion issue, I'm not sure that another one really adds to the denial of ignorance, we are all aware of the proceadure, and that there are arguments for, and against, but the fact that it comes back time, and again, doesn't really help in the grand scheme of things, people get ariated, and just don't budge from their stand point (indeed why should they).

On topic: You know what, the only reason I commented was not to offer some earth shattering perspective which would value or devalue the argument in any direction, its the fact that rightly or wrongly it is an indivduals choice, whether they should have that choice or not, isn't for us to decide, the choice exists, and I don't see it going away anytime soon, but you know what, and to touch on the last part of your post with respect, regardless of whether a pregnancy is terminated, or miscarried, surely we have to agree either present a trauma to the feotus, oh and (I'mean this respectfully) let's just forget about the whole, yes and when born too thing, because, that isn't the area being discussed provisionally.

Oh, and I just wondered if I could put a question out there, which is on topic....

Hypothetical, Married man conceives a child out of wedlock as part of an affair (yes we all know it's a sin, and shouldn't occur in the first instance, but it can happen), okay 2 q's

1) Should the man accept that this has occured, and that his marriage may be over if his wife finds out, and not try to dissuade the woman from having an abortion ?

2) Now if your a guy on here, please try really hard for a minute to put yourself in the married man's position, and answer the question .

I ask because I know this does happen sadly.

Just thought it might be interesting to see what you's think, and how you would answer, perhaps we can ask the ladies too or swtich it around to work for the ladies, because I'm not sure if this kind of thought has been put to this issue on here before, but I could be wrong.




posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by randyvs

Originally posted by solargeddon
reply to post by randyvs
 


Perhaps it was the title ?

Have no idea, seriously, when I clicked on it your thread was a rant, never knew it had ever been in another section......mods eh !


Yeah it is a tough thread especially for me. I suppose an apology might be in order for it's offering. At least to those I know I have offended. For some reason that doesn't fee`l quite right either. Maybe it gains more flex in this section anyway. But it feels like something that had to be hidden away. Of which I do disagree.

so I guess I'll concede to the move and refuse to make any further comments.

edit on 17-6-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



I don't think you need to apologise, you are entitled to your opinion on the matter, and I don't agree it should be hidden, and considered taboo, I just think we get so bogged down, and incensed by certain issues maybe we don't get it across in the manner we had hoped we did, that's not to say there was anything wrong with your offering per se, see your thread through, its generated debate, and I don't think anyone has outwardly said "I am offended" (other than my insinuation, that some people may be, just ignore me, I'm a grouchy hag at times, and get pedantic).

Of course it would be nice, (not aimed at you), if maybe we as a collective didn't use the word "murder" it's a hate filled word, far too easy to band around and probably isn't helping to break new ground, or stimulate healthy debate.



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by PeterWiggin
 


This is where we shall alway's differ my friend, you know there is also those instances in real life when a friend will actively dissuade someone from something which would be positive for that person, just becuase it serves a purpose or agenda for them, but may be the completely wrong advice.

Any argument should alway's come with a "But you do what you choose to do" at the end of it, allowise it could build resentment towards that person if, the persuasive view was undertaken, but wound up being a disadvantage in the long run, all for the sake of somebody else's opinion.

Yes, we do all have the right to choose what we believe, follow, decide, but all too often those decisions are tainted with somebody elses choice, and some are too weak, to see a way to make their choice in their life, their decision.

I say the above not only in relation to the topic at hand, but in the broader sense too.



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 07:38 PM
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reply to post by solargeddon
 





Of course it would be nice, (not aimed at you), if maybe we as a collective didn't use the word "murder" it's a hate filled word, far too easy to band around and probably isn't helping to break new ground, or stimulate healthy debate.


That sounds reasonable enough to me Solar. I'll agree to that in the hear and now and to remember it in the future, noting I can't erase the past. But fair enough.




1) Should the man accept that this has occured, and that his marriage may be over if his wife finds out, and not try to dissuade the woman from having an abortion ?

2) Now if your a guy on here, please try really hard for a minute to put yourself in the married man's position, and answer the question .


The man should not try to dissuade or persuade either way and if the mistress decides to have the child ? Tough as that is he isn't a man unless he owns up to it. His actions have manifested into a living being so he shouled tell his wife and let those chips fall.

Sounds so horribly self righteous I know. but in the end at least he would be honorable.




edit on 17-6-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 




So a mother miscarries do to improper nutrition. Is that nature, or the mother, who caused it?


Gee I dunno, did the mother intend to kill her child by poisoning herself? This is pretty common sense stuff IMO. A lot of iberals just like to try and make things complicated to justify their own bad actions, including murder.
edit on 17-6-2012 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by Wookiep
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 




So a mother miscarries do to improper nutrition. Is that nature, or the mother, who caused it?


Gee I dunno, did the mother intend to kill her child by poisoning herself? This is pretty common sense stuff IMO. A lot of iberals just like to make things complicated to justify their own actions, including murder.


Why cant you just answer the question instead of trying to label me as a liberal, which is very far from the truth?



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Wookiep
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 




So a mother miscarries do to improper nutrition. Is that nature, or the mother, who caused it?


Gee I dunno, did the mother intend to kill her child by poisoning herself? This is pretty common sense stuff IMO. A lot of iberals just like to make things complicated to justify their own actions, including murder.


Why cant you just answer the question instead of trying to label me as a liberal, which is very far from the truth?


I did answer your question but apparently you can't read. It depends on if the mother intended to kill her baby or not via ingesting poison etc. I suppose in some cases it should be up to a court to decide. Happy? Do you feel smarter now?



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Wookiep

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Wookiep
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 




So a mother miscarries do to improper nutrition. Is that nature, or the mother, who caused it?


Gee I dunno, did the mother intend to kill her child by poisoning herself? This is pretty common sense stuff IMO. A lot of iberals just like to make things complicated to justify their own actions, including murder.


Why cant you just answer the question instead of trying to label me as a liberal, which is very far from the truth?


I did answer your question but apparently you can't read. It depends on if the mother intended to kill her baby or not via ingesting poison etc. I suppose in some cases it should be up to a court to decide. Happy? Do you feel smarter now?


No, you didnt answer the question. It has nothing to do with intention. Whose fault is it, if a mother miscarries because of poor nutrition? It was claimed that miscarriages are nature-so, tell me, would this be nature, or the mother, who cause it?



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Wookiep

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Wookiep
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 




So a mother miscarries do to improper nutrition. Is that nature, or the mother, who caused it?


Gee I dunno, did the mother intend to kill her child by poisoning herself? This is pretty common sense stuff IMO. A lot of iberals just like to make things complicated to justify their own actions, including murder.


Why cant you just answer the question instead of trying to label me as a liberal, which is very far from the truth?


I did answer your question but apparently you can't read. It depends on if the mother intended to kill her baby or not via ingesting poison etc. I suppose in some cases it should be up to a court to decide. Happy? Do you feel smarter now?


No, you didnt answer the question. It has nothing to do with intention. Whose fault is it, if a mother miscarries because of poor nutrition? It was claimed that miscarriages are nature-so, tell me, would this be nature, or the mother, who cause it?


I answered your question, too bad if you don't like the answer. It's not my fault nor my responsibility that you have no common sense.

edit on 17-6-2012 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 08:11 PM
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Originally posted by Wookiep

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Wookiep

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Wookiep
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 




So a mother miscarries do to improper nutrition. Is that nature, or the mother, who caused it?


Gee I dunno, did the mother intend to kill her child by poisoning herself? This is pretty common sense stuff IMO. A lot of iberals just like to make things complicated to justify their own actions, including murder.


Why cant you just answer the question instead of trying to label me as a liberal, which is very far from the truth?


I did answer your question but apparently you can't read. It depends on if the mother intended to kill her baby or not via ingesting poison etc. I suppose in some cases it should be up to a court to decide. Happy? Do you feel smarter now?


No, you didnt answer the question. It has nothing to do with intention. Whose fault is it, if a mother miscarries because of poor nutrition? It was claimed that miscarriages are nature-so, tell me, would this be nature, or the mother, who cause it?


I answered you question, too bad if you don't like the answer. It's not my fault nor my responsibility that you have no common sense.


No, you didnt, and you still havent. I get it though, you are going to deflect to the point where you dont have to answer. Which IS an answer in itself.



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 08:15 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 





No, you didnt answer the question. It has nothing to do with intention. Whose fault is it, if a mother miscarries because of poor nutrition? It was claimed that miscarriages are nature-so, tell me, would this be nature, or the mother, who cause it?


Your question is under the condition of a mountain of varibles that provide cause and effect and in turn effect the answer at the disposal of each and every variable. I don't see how he can honestly answer it either way.
edit on 17-6-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 08:15 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


Oh yeah smart guy? Whats your answer? I gave mine, quite clearly. If anyone, mother or not, does anything with the intent to kill a human being then it's murder (or attempted murder), regardless if you think the intention doesn't matter, which doesn't even make sense. You're trying to conjure nonsense in an effort to make you look smart, which you clearly are not.
edit on 17-6-2012 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 





No, you didnt answer the question. It has nothing to do with intention. Whose fault is it, if a mother miscarries because of poor nutrition? It was claimed that miscarriages are nature-so, tell me, would this be nature, or the mother, who cause it?


Your question is under the condition of a mountain of varibles that provide cause and effect and in turn effect the answer at the disposal of each and every variable. I don't see how he can honestly answer it either way.
edit on 17-6-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)


Fair enough-in this case, though, the argument that was posed earlier-that is, that miscarriages are natural, can be thrown out the window as irrelevant. Afterall, it cant be used as a defense, if one cant defend it.



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 09:30 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


Go ahead and present your case on why miscarriages aren't natural. We're waiting. What a ridiculous argument you are trying to make.



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by Wookiep
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


Go ahead and present your case on why miscarriages aren't natural. We're waiting. What a ridiculous argument you are trying to make.


I have to agree.

objection over ruled !


I have always wanted to say that here and within.
edit on 17-6-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 10:07 PM
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Originally posted by Wookiep
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


Go ahead and present your case on why miscarriages aren't natural. We're waiting. What a ridiculous argument you are trying to make.


If it is due to the choices a mother makes i.e. nutrition, etc, then it is not natural. It was outside factors that lead to it. Get it? You all cant even defend the assertion that miscarriages are natural-by your own admission. Yet you stick to it as a defense. Talk about hypocrisy.


edit on 17-6-2012 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 10:30 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 





If it is due to the choices a mother makes i.e. nutrition, etc, then it is not natural. It was outside factors that lead to it. Get it? You all cant even defend the assertion that miscarriages are natural-by your own admission. Yet you stick to it as a defense. Talk about hypocrisy.


It is clearly you that must make a case for a mothers natural choices for her nutrition, to be considered
as an un-natural cause for any miscarriage. I don't believe you can do that. Again objection over ruled.
edit on 17-6-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 10:42 PM
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reply to post by solargeddon
 


Originally posted by solargeddon
[...] so tell me who has "murdered the baby" when a miscarriage occurs ?![...]

Good question.

You would think the correct answer within the christian paradigm would be:


Originally posted by randyvs
[...]the strong and super intelligent father (aka God).

but surprisingly in this case it is:


Originally posted by Wookiep
[...] a tragic death not controlled by anyone but nature.


See, the super intelligent father conveniently manages to be temporarily non-omnipotent when it comes to atrocities like this.

He even hired a young aspiring subcontractor for all his dirty work (although he has quite a history of murdering people by himself).

He truly is one smart mother#er.

edit on 17-6-2012 by ColCurious because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 10:55 PM
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reply to post by ColCurious
 


When did this become a religious thread? I think you're trolling, here's why. You won't be satisfied with either answer, God OR nature. I think you're just pissed off at God/religion, so you came in here to rant. Just my opinion.



posted on Jun, 17 2012 @ 11:01 PM
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reply to post by Wookiep
 


Originally posted by Wookiep
reply to post by ColCurious
 

When did this become a religious thread?

First post, third sentence.


Originally posted by Wookiep
I think you're just pissed off at God/religion, so you came in here to rant. Just my opinion.

And you're absolutely right. Thank god I'm in the right section to rant.


edit on 17-6-2012 by ColCurious because: (no reason given)



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