(Masonic) Jesters,human sex trafficing and multimillon dollar fraud case.

reply to post by Sinny


I am sorry you had to deal with something that evil. Children should never have to see that side of someone or something. That does put some of your views in context. For every 1 bad person, there are 100 good ones. I would just hope that you give the 99 a chance before you condemn them.

I take serious issue with the RoJ, and the Shrine. I mean no offense to the GOOD Masons involved, and I know how old this particular example is. With that said I feel the need to air a couple things out.

It's been pointed out already that the men involved with this crap have all been expelled from the fraternity. However, thanks to the good old Internet and smear artists like Sandy Frost, instead of focusing on the people who committed crimes, out comes the Gatling guns trying to spray allegations at the WHOLE of Freemasonry.

This is bad for several reasons, first and foremost, Brothers ( and ATS members ), as usual the actions of a few have sullied the name of the many. In this case guilty by association seems like the understatement of the century.

Next is the simple fact that your average person, who is not a Mason, does NOT understand the difference between the Shrine, RoJ, AASR, YR, TCoL, or any of the other Appendant rites Masons can venture in to..... THEY SEE MASONS.

In a day and age when you can find long lost friends with a google search and a Facebook account, it may be time for the Order, as a whole from Grand Lodges to distance themselves from "Masonic" orgainizations that have black eyes like this one. I know a few Jesters and I can say for certain that they wouldn't condone this in the least. Drink and party? Sure. But nothing like this.

I know it's difficult for many people to understand, but these kind of things DON'T take place within Masonry. It's a shame these men were ever made Masons. May no remembrance be had of them among us.

reply to post by network dude


Errrr... No, I don't thintk that's a fair assumption of us Brummies! I've only ever met one other person on ATS from brum, and he only took part in the UFO subject.. I'm not even aware of how other Brummies feel about the subject (apart from most English, like my self, agree, sometimes murder can be forgiven, but peodophillia..NO!) So your assumption of Birmingham is far from the truth I fear.

Originally posted by Sinny
reply to post by network dude

 

Errrr... No, I don't thintk that's a fair assumption of us Brummies! I've only ever met one other person on ATS from brum, and he only took part in the UFO subject.. I'm not even aware of how other Brummies feel about the subject (apart from most English, like my self, agree, sometimes murder can be forgiven, but peodophillia..NO!) So your assumption of Birmingham is far from the truth I fear.

exactly my point. I am sure people there are just like people everywhere. i was just trying to show how false generalizations are dangerous.

reply to post by network dude


Thanks for your kind words, and you can now maybe put some of my views in context, although I haven't condemed the majority, we *know* it is a minority, its the 1% v the 99% after all

Its just that on this site have encountered many Masons, who choose to jump on evey topic that mention or reference tham, they soon jump in to defend them regardless of context or subject.

Defence is a rational human responce, so I try not to hold it against you, I do resent however, bumping into obsticles in the way of exsposing these issues.

My first post barely touched on the Masonic connection, in fact it exposed governments, departments, and institutions at work... So it kindah stumps me when we make it about who knows what about masons

That's playing into their disinfo hands, divide and conquer.. No?

If we could keep the thread purely educational, that would be appreciated.

reply to post by emsed1


Hard. I can tell you. I was actually born in Birmingham (luckily). The family moved over in the 80's.
My nan n Grandad both born and raised Irish, as their 9 children (my aunts and uncles).

Mass every sunday, the belt if you missed it, quizzed over the colour of the priest clothes, and hail marys every time you needed God

My youngest Aunt was abused, and her life has suffered since, more recently I heard my grandad abused her, this is all hushed whispers from within my 60 or so close cusons. We can't really discuss these things, if you get my drift.

My grandad murdered a man. Went down. My second eldest uncle is IRA, my first killed by a protestant group. Lots of friends of the family killed, they even raided the house and killed the pets.

My grandad was forced to move the famo to England (here I am).

My nan was murdered in a pub by 2 English soldiers, in the 80's and her second husband (nan n G split) nearly died, when an argument about the Irish troubles kicked off.

My mom found my nan, that affects her in a bad way, right up to today.

My eldest uncle moved back to Ireland, and resides there still.

I wanted to join the English Army 2-3 years ago, and the family made it clear that was a big no-no. The uncle in Ireland said if I was ever posted over there, in uniform he'd shoot me.

He loves me, but he'd shoot me

I went as far as joining the army for a taster for 2 weeks.
Eventually I couldn't join on medical grounds. I wonder how life would have faired if I had of joined?

These days my grandad passed away 4 years ago.
I know the family disowned one of my aunts for accusing my uncle of *stuff* regarding her 3 boys.
I met this uncle and found it pretty obvious he *ent normal*.
(He done his time and has moved locally).

Me and my other cuson of the same age agreed grandad maybe weren't *normal*

Now I've grown up the family realise how different (most us younger grandkids are) and resistant I am to there way of life. It was only last year I realised, they way they would have me think, is highly restricted, and strange.

I call it the Irish mind set, I have great intuition, and my insides tell me they don't think like the rest of us.

Before this last year I respected and obeyed them, now after a few altercations, we all know where we stand.

Sorry for rambling, had a few beers and never wrote that down before, that's what its like in a day in a life of a Brummie surrounded by Irish nuts! LOL (at that's just the tip of the iceberg)..

To ralate to the topic, that's the power of the church, just *one* example of the institutions at work.

reply to post by W3RLIED2


100% agreed.

I used to be opposed to decoupling the Shrine from the Masons, but lately my opinion has changed, and I believe it would be the best decision for the Shriners and for the Masons if they cut their ties.

reply to post by Sinny


Wow. That is unimaginable.

It's true that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I imagine that must have required an immense amount of internal strength.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Me too unfortunately.

Originally posted by Sinny
Its just that on this site have encountered many Masons, who choose to jump on evey topic that mention or reference tham, they soon jump in to defend them regardless of context or subject.

sometimes we get a bit touchy. By we I mean I. But after reading posts and watching videos all telling me what an evil person I am or that I am just a dumbass who doesn't really know what's going on, day after day, eventually, you get a tiny bit jaded. Doesn't make it right, but as you said, it puts things in context.

You should write a book. Your life thus far seems as if it wasn't without it's challenges. You must be a strong person. Good luck.

reply to post by network dude


Maybe I will one day. There must be many people who have founded them selves torn in this conflict, the English Irish divide.

reply to post by network dude

reply to post by Sinny

Its just that on this site have encountered many Masons, who choose to jump on evey topic that mention or reference tham, they soon jump in to defend them regardless of context or subject.

I don't think we "jump" on every topic and defend regardless of context. This thread is proof that many of us agree with some of the problems and misconceptions.

It just seems like we do that, because the majority of the accusations are so ridiculous. When someone posts a thought-provoking thread, or an allegation that comes from some actual Masonry stuff like this thread, then I believe the Masons are usually very forthcoming, open, and honest. I know I try to be.

I would never blindly defend anything, but people seem to have no problem making blind and unfounded accusations, so the majority of the time we spend in those discussions instead of good ones like this thread.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Kinda jumping in a little late here.. but just wanted to put my 2 cents in on this,

As for Masons... I have been interested in the group for a long time, even before i joined this website and discovered all the 'secrets' that they have. I have actually been through the interview process (although i never joined) and know quite a few masons. ALL of the masons i know are good people, charitable and friendly. They also will defend the notion that top members of their society may or may not be involved in 'stuff'. And i don;t blame them. getreadyalready, i see your point. You joined for a reason and its hard to have people spewing stuff about an organization that you are dedicated to, have put ample time into, and can see the charitable and good things they do.
I will say though, that it reminds me of a place i used to work. I loved my job and the people. We managed contracts between certain suppliers and certain non-profit charities etc. Mostly food procurement for under-priviledged persons. Our company won awards etc for great management, ethics etc etc. THEN, it came out that two of the senior level management, incredibly well respected members of the society were busted with thieving charitable money and food meant to go to these under-privilideged folks. And it wasn't recoverable because both bigwigs had a nasty coc aine habit as well as gambling. We, of course as employees, being a part of the org. for a number of years and seeing the good these people did and the good the company did, denied that it was possible. I mean, how could it be that these guys who made their lives by 'doing good' for the community could be this way!? The whole operation went belly up and i remember talking to people after and they were shocked, because on the outside, our company was an incredible example of generosity, communication between charities and the persons they served, etc. NOONE could beleive that the figureheads of the company (the two management persons) could ever be what it turned out they were! It was a shock to the community! These guys were the essence of charity and all that, yet beneath it all, they were scum who used the guise of the company to ruin our lives, the employees, ruin the facilitation that had been built up between charities, ruined the logistics of food and money flow, etc etc etc They also got away from audits and such for a long time as noone would ever assume that these well respected members of society could ever be tainted by corruption. NOW, that being said, I AM NOT saying that it is a fact that high level masons are liek this. What I am saying is there is evidence of stuff going down and, as we did in the example above, the membership can't see that it is possible that stuff like that could be happening! I mean, you know these people right?! They come and speak at meetings sometimes, they are looked up to within the org.... YET.. it IS possible that this stuff is going down, am i not right? I understand that you get sick of the bashing, andi can see that. Like i said, Masons i know would give the shirts of their backs to the needy. However, and as i said in earlier posts, this is the perfect cover for stuff like this to go down in. The secrecy, and potential blackmail due to illicit sexual activity that keeps the higher membership in a close clique with no chance of them speaking out against eachother is ENTIRELY possible.. yes?

As for the 'grove'.. I don't know how you feel about Alex Jones (and this will make or break the video for you) but he did manage to sneak in to the grove a while back and film satanic-type rituals going on there. Also, staff at these events have passed on information regarding illicit sexual activity. Again, WE DON'T KNOW for sure, cause neither of us has been there BUT, the fact that high level politicians and businessmen attend these secret meetings, people who are influential and have the power to make changes in our society (government, business, etc) and yet will not disclose what they are doing there, PLUS we get these reports of weird/crazy stuff going on, is suspect, no?
The way i see it, the business people attending these 'meetings' have the right to their privacy.. They are not elected, their salary is paid by their company. However, public figures are just that. PUBLIC! We pay their salary, we elect them and they must disclose ANY activity that involves them colluding with any other government/business type person. Their personal lives are theirs, and it should be that way. Who they cheat on their wife with if their business. However, when they attend a meeting, in secret, that may or may not involve discussion about any political or international matters, they should be morally and by law, obligated to disclose the nature of these meetings!
One of my favs, Kennedy on Secret Societies

reply to post by Nspekta


This was a great example of my comment about the ones that are in the club are clueless.

I agree that it's a minority in the wrong but they have the potential to bring everyone down with them if they are not stopped.

reply to post by getreadyalready

Hypothetical question for you. If that were to happen, would you keep membership in the Masonic Lodge, or the Shrine or maintain both memberships?

Originally posted by no1smootha
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

Hypothetical question for you. If that were to happen, would you keep membership in the Masonic Lodge, or the Shrine or maintain both memberships?

In two states the Shriners have been declared 'irregular' by the respective Grand Lodges. Technically a mason would not be allowed to remain in Freemasonry if they continued Shrine membership. It's a catch-22.

Originally posted by no1smootha
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

Hypothetical question for you. If that were to happen, would you keep membership in the Masonic Lodge, or the Shrine or maintain both memberships?

If I had to choose I would choose Masonry. Which is odd, because I joined the Masons to become a Shriner, because I wanted to talk to burn victims. I was burned "full-thickness" over 25% of my body, and I know how scary it can be and how negative the doctors often are, so I wanted to visit the kids and give them a more optimistic view. BUT, in my experience, the guys that join the Shrine and stop attending Masonic meetings are the very guys I don't like very much, so I would prefer to just stick with the Blue Lodge.

If I could choose both, I would continue to keep both, but I would not go to Shrine meetings, I would just pay my dues and visit the hospitals from time to time.

reply to post by Nspekta

You have provided damning testimonial evidence that non-Masons have been involved with embezzlement and fraud. Does their crime sully the reputations of other non-Masons?

Originally posted by no1smootha
reply to post by Nspekta

 

You have provided damning testimonial evidence that non-Masons have been involved with embezzlement and fraud. Does their crime sully the reputations of other non-Masons?

You are missing the point and making a poor trolling attempt...
What is was getting across was that there are people within a group at a lower level, that may not know what is going on above them, and refuse to believe or question inconsistencies and accusations BECAUSE they are also involved in that group. Your attempt is poor.. Better luck next time

reply to post by Nspekta

I wasn't trolling, I was trying to make a point. If the majority of any organization; secular, religious or whatever are good, law abiding citizens as the rules of their organization would have them be but a minority aren't law abiding citizens, is that a reflection on the organization or the individuals who swayed?